How do I get the play out of the steering?

[xriide]

So as per everyone's recommendations about my rear suspension (Orbital eyes and relocation bracket) being bang on what I was looking for.

I am not looking to get my steering under control. I have 5.5" of lift or so. And I have a drop pitman, adjustable heavy duty track bar. And a new (8,000 km) steering stabilizer.

But I have play in my steering, most notable on the highway, probably close to +/- 2.5" when on the highway before the wheel input actually starts to change my heading.

While the thought of going full hydro crossed my mind, I'm not sure I want or need to undertake that.

I will be running 35x14.5 boggers.

My initial thought was OTK from Iron Rock Offroad and the dakota steering box. But then I am up to almost 500 bucks, and feel like going full hydro is right around that price point or not much more.

But this looked interesting too?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jeep-XJ-Cherokee-High-Steer-kit-knuckle-over-/260406142002

Thoughts?

 

[WB9YZU]

What is your steering set up now? Describe the linkages. Any aftermarket stuff in there?

Instead of throwing money at it, I'd find out what the issue is by watching the steering linkages while someone inputs from the cab.

-Ron

 

[xriide]

What is your steering set up now? Describe the linkages. Any aftermarket stuff in there?

Instead of throwing money at it, I'd find out what the issue is by watching the steering linkages while someone inputs from the cab.

-Ron

It's stock. I have a drop pitman, and an adjustable track bar. New steering stabilizer.

I have had someone turn the wheel while I watch, and nothing looks out of place, nothing is loose, nothing is leaking.



This is what it looks like

 

[Johnnie Walker]

TRE's good? Maybe some play in the steering box? You are pretty much at the limit for stock steering.
Crossover steering with heims or even one-ton TRE's will help. IF you can afford hydro. Go for it.

 

[WB9YZU]

That tie rod probably isn't doing you any favors. I'm surprised it doesn't look like a pretzel already.

You're not looking for "loose".
You are looking for "Non responsive", or "Why did that rod end just roll over instead of moving the next part". That's the stuff which causes you to have to move the wheel a ways before something else moves.

When you turn the wheel, the selector shaft should not move up or down, just turn.
Another happy spot is at the drag link to tie rod joint. Sometimes it will roll instead of moving.
That hollow stick that Jeep called a Tie Rod will bow on larger tires and should be replaced with a solid ZJ V8 unit by now.

Also look for body movement instead of link movement.

-Ron

 

[xriide]

TRE's good? Maybe some play in the steering box? You are pretty much at the limit for stock steering.
Crossover steering with heims or even one-ton TRE's will help. IF you can afford hydro. Go for it.

I found this thread from ages ago about hydro assist for pretty cheap, still looking into how much more full hydro would be.
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=55711

That tie rod probably isn't doing you any favors. I'm surprised it doesn't look like a pretzel already.

You're not looking for "loose".
You are looking for "Non responsive", or "Why did that rod end just roll over instead of moving the next part". That's the stuff which causes you to have to move the wheel a ways before something else moves.

When you turn the wheel, the selector shaft should not move up or down, just turn.
Another happy spot is at the drag link to tie rod joint. Sometimes it will roll instead of moving.
That hollow stick that Jeep called a Tie Rod will bow on larger tires and should be replaced with a solid ZJ V8 unit by now.

Also look for body movement instead of link movement.

-Ron

I can't see anything, flex, bend, bind, roll, curl, slide, not respond, etc. Wheels on the ground or in the air.
But the steering wheel feels different when driving than just sitting, feels much looser when driving, where as sitting still it looks like the tires start moving as soon as the wheel does.
The play might be in the box, but how do I tell?

Maybe the tie rod is flexing at speed? Replacing that is easy enough. I know my lift is the top end of the stock geometry. So figured it could just need a new steering set up. Which got me thinking hyrdo.
But I would hate to go hydro just to have the same problem because of something silly.

 

[GordoSmasho]

I found this thread from ages ago about hydro assist for pretty cheap, still looking into how much more full hydro would be.
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=55711

Just an fyi. Full hydro steering is not legal or a smart/safe choice for a street driven vehicle. If you loose pressure you loose all steering.

With assist you still have a mechanical linkage to control the wheels in case of hydrolic failure.

 

[xriide]

Re: Re: How do I get the play out of the steering?

Just an fyi. Full hydro steering is not legal or a smart/safe choice for a street driven vehicle. If you loose pressure you loose all steering.

With assist you still have a mechanical linkage to control the wheels in case of hydrolic failure.

Oh I didn't realize it wasn't legal. Why not safe though?
I understand that if the hydro goes out you lose steering. But I can't see how it's much different than normal, both seem to have a single point of failure that would screw you.

 

[GordoSmasho]

With full hydro you loose ALL control if you loose pressure.

With assist you still have the mechanical linkage to control the wheels. Though its harder without power steering and the ram you can still control the vehicle.

For a trail/trailered vehicle full hydro is great. For a streel legal vehicle it is not safe or smart or legal. Hate to be that guy that lost all steering control on the freeway you know.

 

[xriide]

Good point. Hydro assist seems cheap enough. But I still need to fix my geometry I think.

Would my front end being 1.75" higher than the rear matter at all?

 

[Teephphah]

I'm not seeing any mention of control arms in your description of what you're running. From the pictuer it's kind of hard to tell, but I don't think your uppers at least look stock. But at 5.5" of lift, you're probably in need of either something adjustable, or something set to work for that kind of lift.

What's your caster angle at? Having your ball joints right over top of each other (or close to it) might make your steering a little bit squirrely.

 

[xriide]

Re: Re: How do I get the play out of the steering?

I'm not seeing any mention of control arms in your description of what you're running. From the pictuer it's kind of hard to tell, but I don't think your uppers at least look stock. But at 5.5" of lift, you're probably in need of either something adjustable, or something set to work for that kind of lift.

What's your caster angle at? Having your ball joints right over top of each other (or close to it) might make your steering a little bit squirrely.

I have custom long arms, but copied the Clayton design.
I don't know the exact angle, but the pinion is pointed towards the T case, so the drive shaft is straight into the pinion.

 

[DeftwillP]

Yeah that's good and all but he was asking about your caster. Caster will definitely have a loose "flighty" feel at speed. Probably not the issue here since you're describing non-responsiveness from the steering but it never hurts to check everything.

 

[xriide]

Re: Re: How do I get the play out of the steering?

Yeah that's good and all but he was asking about your caster. Caster will definitely have a loose "flighty" feel at speed. Probably not the issue here since you're describing non-responsiveness from the steering but it never hurts to check everything.

Oh caster, I had it alighted a couple weeks ago. I'll see if I can find their print out.

 

[xriide]

So this morning I used several pipe clamps and a 1" rigid pipe to beef up my tie rod and sure enough the play on the highway was greatly reduced, so I think my tie rod is flexing on the highway.
Now before I just order a new tie rod is changing my geometry worth doing?

 

[Mach2nh]

I couldnt even drive my 97 down the road with 33s and the stock tie. Bad DW soon as i hit a bump. I mounted a Gopro to see what was going on and you can see the tie flex back and forth soon as the DW started. Installed a used bend HD link and it was all gone. Things just dont like the weight of bigger tires.

 

[old_man]

Besides all that has been said, from looking at your geometry. I would ditch the drop pitman arm and go back to a stock one. You are going to get some funky bump steer.

As far as play in the wheel, it can come from almost anything in the steering, such as:

Ball Joints
Tie rod ends
Track Bar Bracket (flex, or loose)
Track Bar ends
Flex in the Tie Rod
Flex in the Track Bar
Control arm joints
Loose steering gear
Loose steering gear mount to frame rail
Caster (but not usually that bad)

 

[xriide]

I couldnt even drive my 97 down the road with 33s and the stock tie. Bad DW soon as i hit a bump. I mounted a Gopro to see what was going on and you can see the tie flex back and forth soon as the DW started. Installed a used bend HD link and it was all gone. Things just dont like the weight of bigger tires.

I don't get any death wobble thankfully, but mounting a gopro is a good idea. I'm going to do that.

Besides all that has been said, from looking at your geometry. I would ditch the drop pitman arm and go back to a stock one. You are going to get some funky bump steer.

As far as play in the wheel, it can come from almost anything in the steering, such as:

Ball Joints
Tie rod ends
Track Bar Bracket (flex, or loose)
Track Bar ends
Flex in the Tie Rod
Flex in the Track Bar
Control arm joints
Loose steering gear
Loose steering gear mount to frame rail
Caster (but not usually that bad)

Control arm joints are new thanks to the custom long arm.
Ball joints seem fine.
rod ends seem fine.
track bar... might be flex, it's tight though.
tie rod definitely needs to be larger.
steering gear is mounted well, but could be lose inside.

I replaced the pitman because it was binding up and making making popping sounds.

 

[highspeed]

Pitman was binding? Or the joint going to the pitman?

 

[xriide]

Pitman was binding? Or the joint going to the pitman?

The joint, the angles are pretty steep, especially articulated at all.