Couple of paint questions

[noresttill]

Hello everyone,

My jeep is starting to rust in spots and the paint is chipped. I want to repaint it.

I have seen the rustoleum roll on technique and liked the simplicity of it, but I also have a full shop at my disposal (compressor, paint gun, sanders) and would like to use them.

While doing research on types of auto paint, I found that acrylic enamel is probably the easiest to apply but usually recommends/needs a isocyanate catalyst which can be dangerous without proper facilities and equipment.

My questions are these:
1) If I were to use an acrylic enamel with no catalyst would I have to wait a very long time between coats? and what would be the hazards of this method (I really dont want to use the isos if a air suit is recommended.)

2) What would be a correct time to wait between coats and between driving time with the rustoleum? (or topside paint as it has UV protection)

3) would a clear be needed with the acrylic?

It doesnt have to look like a $1000 paint job, I know that the products you use dictate the results, however I want the best looking job for the money. I do plan on buffing. I dont mind putting the time in, but it cant sit in the shop for any amount of time at once, a weekend max.

Thanks

 

[noresttill]

Has anyone ever sprayed rustoleum or uncatalyzed acrylic enamel?

 

[DanMan2k06]

Yes, it takes forever to dry, scratches easy, will wash off with gas or any other petroleum product. Still, a lot of people do it.

You keep mentioning acrylic enamel, but I cant even remember the last time that stuff was used. Takes close to a month to fully cure, is very soft, not easy to use. ANY acrylic urethane is better than an enamel.

 

[noresttill]

awesome! thanks for the reply, just needed some direction.

So if I use something like this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-CSUMUP309/ (maybe add a quart to the order) I should be good?

Trying not to piece things together so a kit would be better for me.

And metallics require clear coat, but the other options dont say its required. Is that like running a marathon and quitting the last 20 feet?

 

[DanMan2k06]

Yea that would work. Most urethane's are split up in two categories. Basecoat/clearcoat, and single stage.

Single stage is easier/quicker in that you shoot your primer, mix up the base, lay it down, and you're done. The clear is essentially "mixed in" with the color. If it's a metallic, you're done. Can't do anything else. If it's a solid color, you can wetsand and buff if need be. This can become annoying if you get a drip/run/dust nib because you have to sand the spot out and respray if using metallics. Honestly I wouldn't use a single stage system on the finish of my car, but for axles, springs, hardware, framing, just about anything but the outer finish, I LOVE the stuff.

Basecoat/cleacoat is the other option. You shoot your primer, lay down a color coat, and then clearcoat. It MUST be cleared. You have the ability to wetsand/buff afterwards no matter what color you use, because you're only sanding the clear. No color involved.

Hope that makes a little more sense.

 

[noresttill]

I read the hatch post and there is a lot of good info there and assume that flash time and the like is all on the sheets that come with the paints.

You mention prospray, but cant find an online distributor.

Also, I found the 2 part urethane on summit but they dont sell it in a kit. In reading up on auto painting, I read that using all the same brand components yield the best results, but besides base coat, activator, reducer, clear coat and either epoxy primer (for a lot of imperfections) or 2k primer, is there anything else like fish eye eliminator (to be honest I don't even know what it does) or sealer after primer needed?

This project has slowly evolved from a quick job to get rid of rust, to an experience that hopefully will allow me to learn enough to paint my VW.

Thanks a lot

 

[DanMan2k06]

Yea prospray is a really good cheap paint... problem is, it's Euro. based so it's super hard to find. Kits do usually have the best compatibility, but that's not to say that you can't mix and match your primer/paint/clear etc.

Sealer is only used to get all the panels the same color. So say you patched together a car with 18 different colored panels. Once you sanded them, they would all have to be sealed the same color or the end finish would end up being 18 different shades of your color. It's basically a super reduced primer. Very thin, very fast drying.

Epoxy primer is only for bare metal. you can use it on whatever you'd like, but usually it's about twice the price as regular urethane primer, so that would be dumb. If you sand through a tiny spot on the edge of a fender, don't worry about it. The regular primer will be able to bridge the small gap. But if you're doing bodywork that requires stud welding or going to bare metal, you definitely want to lay down some epoxy afterwards (before urethane). Some people reduce epoxy primer about 1:1:1, and shoot it as a sealer. I know SPI's epoxy works especially well for this.

Fish eye eliminator and all that jazz is really just a bandage. If you're getting fisheyes, it's because of contamination. Could be in your air lines (oil/moisture) or left in the cup that you mixed the paint in, or leftover in the gun from the last time you shot. I've never used it, but also never really had to. The only fisheye's I've had were in clear, in which case I used a q-tip to apply some more clear to fill them. Then sand/buff.

So in cliffs, essentially you want
-sand
-urethane primer
-basecoat
-clearcoat

If you have bodywork with metal exposed, it goes
-epoxy
-urethane
-basecoat
-clearcoat

 

[noresttill]

Thanks for all the info. I think I learned more in this thread than in all the searching i've done.

Just a few more things im unsure off:

Summit racing and paint for cars are probably the same stuff, so go with the cheaper one right?

When looking for videos of professionals in the paint booth (and some amateurs) I cant figure how they paint the jambs and under hood/engine bay area? Do you just remove them and paint separately or what? I saw one guy paint the jamb then close the door, cant see how that keeps the paint nice?

What do you think?

Swear Ill leave you alone soon. Your helping me so much though.

Again, Thanks

P.S. In the cliff notes area, "Urethane" is referring to urethane primer, correct?

 

[DanMan2k06]

Yes, urethane is referring to urethane primer. Meaning regular 2k Primer. Not epoxy or sealer or another specific primer.

Engine bays are always tricky. A lot of people don't do them, just because of the sheer volume of stuff you have to remove in order to paint them. Unless you're doing a motor swap, I really wouldn't bother.

As far as jambs go, paint them first. Primer, base, and clear. Sand off the excess paint that has accumulated outside the jamb before you paint the exterior and you won't have lifting problems. The most common proceedure when doing this is to get the parts in final primer, sand the jambs and paint them, assemble the car, then final sand the exterior at the same time removing any overspray from when the jambs were painted, mask the jambs and shoot the exterior.

For hood, same procedure as jambs. But I would remove it. The xj has a huge hood, it's kinda high, and only takes 4 bolts to remove so go ahead and put it on stands intstead. Do the same with the windshield cowel. If you really want you could take the fenders off and do the whole front clip separate.

For the product line, it really comes down to you get what you pay for in most cases. I haven't had any experience with either summit or 'paint for cars', but they look to both be cheap, economy line paint. So I'd say since you're already at the bottom of the barrel, go for the cheaper one lol. That being said, either one will be exponentially better than anything that comes out of a rattle can... Anything else man don't hesitate to ask.

 

[crazyjim]

Ok so... When are you flying out to California to paint my MJ?

 

[DanMan2k06]

Soon as you buy me a plane ticket haha. I got tons of family out there.

 

[crazyjim]

Soon as you buy me a plane ticket haha. I got tons of family out there.

Don't tempt me hahaha. I'll pay for supplies and beer!

 

[noresttill]

Couple days late, but thanks for answers all my paint question.

Finally got into the paint area of the shop today to check out the equipment. Ill be using a Devilbiss finish line series sprayer for the BC and CC, but there is also cheaper husky HVLP sprayer that I might use for primer (though the tip is kind of small). One thing I found interesting was the nozzle tips have no numbers on them!?!?! There are two tips there, but I do not know the exact size. Ill break out the calipers next time im there, but it seemed very strange that it is not easily identifiable.

I will have to hang some plastic as its is/part of the wood shop as there's a lot of dust (compared to a booth) so thats a paint, but the vent system is good.

Also, Ive been milling around the idea of spraying the jambs to clear like mentioned, then doing final sand on the exterior. very sound advice but I think that would put me three days out. Day1 2k prime, Day2 sand and paint Jambs/bay, Day 3 sand and paint exterior. Am I being overly cautious, can this be consolidated a bit?

Also, I dont plan on taking much to bare metal, but am unsure at what point epoxy primer is necessary. the rear roof corners are rusting, so im guessing a few playing card sized places of bare metal. Regular primer prevents rust right?

To add to my above statement about where im buying: www.paintforcars.com doesn't have a very good reputation with longevity from what ive read, and summit seems to be rebranded kirker.

On a side note my fiance wants her beetle painted HOK kameleon, so I better get good at this paint thing!! i figure Its all prep, gun setting, paint quality, and attention to detail. Hope im right!

Thanks again

 

[DanMan2k06]

Sounds like you're finally getting the hang of it! Let me see if I can't answer a few more questions.

Primer is the most viscous to spray, so it needs a larger nozzle. Usually a 1.5-1.7 tip is used, some people like even larger ones. Topcoats are a lot thinner, so a 1.3-1.4 should work fine. Tech sheets should explain all of this.

If you have bare metal over the size of a quarter, I would get some epoxy. If you have a shop around town (might take some research) you could see if they sell pints of epoxy since you don't need much. If there's no jobber, see if you can find a local body shop, and persuade one of the techs to let you snag just a tad of epoxy for your project. You can use urethane over the bare metal, but it's almost guaranteed to lift over time. Could be a month, could be a few years, but it will happen.

Kirker makes some decent products for the price. Pretty durable stuff, so don't let the re-badging shy you away from it. Eastwood's hosue brand paints are also Kirker. I'd say find the cheapest source and go with that.

As for the timeframe, your 3 day schedule seems alright. Just follow the tech sheets. Most of them can even be found online. Plan your project around them, don't try and rush things or you'll end up regretting it when you tear your primer with some paper because it's still curing.

Edit: Here's your tech sheets for kirker. If you start early and end late without dicking around you may be able to do it all in 2 days.

Epoxy Primer:
http://www.kirkerautomotive.com/images/PDF/ENDURO.pdf

Urethane Primer:
http://www.kirkerautomotive.com/images/PDF/PERFECT_PRIME.pdf

I dunno what color/brand/type of topcoat you want to use, but they're also available online when you decide.

And here's the Clearcoat sheet:
http://www.kirkerautomotive.com/images/PDF/UCC500.pdf

 

[noresttill]

Again, thanks for the support

Hopefully get to ordering next week

 

[Bronzewyrm]

i dont mean to butt in... i think i may be able to save you some time and $$$.

how stright is the jeep? if theres not much body work to do then dont waste your time sanding the whole car down. take a look at the paint that is there. if it looks decent to you and it hasent been repainted like 25 times, dont worrie about using that as a base. anything will stick to it. in paintwork its all about the prepwork. i dont care what anybody says, if you prep it right it really doesent matter what you use on it, it will look good in the long run.

get a box of Red scotch bright, a bucket of hot soapy watter and start scrubbing every little nook and crany you can find on the ting. when your all done doing that you will know what your up aginst as far as "work" goes.

epoxy. yeah its good and all, but if your only looking at a couple spots of bare metel/body work and filler. just get a raddle can of etching primer and shoot a little 2k over that . ull be good to go.

sealer. on a "chip foose" job yeah use sealer... on a xj wheeler that your painting in a 1/2 woodshop,and guna drag down the woods. prime, sand, scuff/clean, paint it!
as long as your 2k has a good scuff on it, and its within a week of being sprayed. blast it with paint no worries. just get the collored 2k, as close to the current color as you can.

if u want your shine to last for a while. clear it, or at least cut the paint with some clear or ull be back in the booth in a couple years. single stage is great, covers well sticks good and is ez as hell to work with. just dont last as long.

i think ud be best off geting the acry. enam. in single stage. with the caytolist. you wont blow yourself up trust me. just make shure to wear your resporator. and disgard the filters when done spraying. get a QT. of clear that maches the single stage. "they will have a muli putpous clear in the same line" and cut the last coat of single stage with 25-50% catolized clear. it should last a while.the caytolist will be the same so alls ull have to get is the clear. and you will be able to sand and pollis it with out worring about how thick your clear is. sand an buff is great!... as long as you have enough clear to work with. if you try the above methoyd it will all meld itself together in process. and you can sand an buff all the way to the primer. lol. "thats not good when you see primer"

we painter are a particular bunch and everyon does things thereown way. it sounds to me your in kinda a "do what you can with what you have/ on a buget," type situation. and i just wanted to let you know that not "everything" is nessasary as long as you know the key steps everything will be alright. all the above info is great info and in no way am i trying to steer you away from your current plan.

just some food for thaught. pm me if you want to know anymore. im bad about checking this section of the forums.

atriot:Bronze.

 

[DanMan2k06]

So in the end you're still sanding just as much, and still paying just as much for basically the same materials? Doesn't sound too economical to me.

Rattle can etch primer... no good with anything catalyzed over it. Don't believe me? Try it.

single stage is great, covers well sticks good and is ez as hell to work with. just dont last as long.

False. Single stage lasts just as long. The only difference between a bascoat/clearcoat job, is they are separted. Single stage is MUCH harder to work with, especially in metallics. You have to lay it on thicker, and sanding can be a pain. You mentioned you can sand and buff with your single stage, but if it's a metallic, you can't. End of story. If you don't really care what it looks like and just want a single color paint job, sure grab some single stage. it's great stuff and has it's place. But I wouldn't say it's easier to use when doing an entire re-color.

 

[Bronzewyrm]

Don't believe me? Try it.

well i supose ill just bow out then. black letter bro... i know nothing. just wanted to stop in and blow some smoke around. never done it b4. I dont know shiz.....assgas:



















single stage metalic. with a $500 total restoration cost. "minus new motor" and yes it got pollished.

But heay what do i know.:wstupid:

Bronze.

 

[old_man]

Rattle can etch primer... no good with anything catalyzed over it. Don't believe me? Try it.
QUOTE]

Depends on the primer. I've been doing body work for 40 years and have painted many vehicles that had rattle can primer for touchups. I personally preferr a good high build sprayable primer, but have never had a paint job fail when you use a quality rattle can primer, not the crap from Autozone.

 

[DanMan2k06]

but have never had a paint job fail when you use a quality rattle can primer, not the crap from Autozone.

Ah, and there lies the problem. I'd bet that 99% of people who want to paint their junk, read "rattle can primer" and immediately think of Duplicolor's green lacquer self etch. I used to have some centercaps around that I primed with that stuff, followed by some black Omni, and finished with clear. As soon as the clear hit, it started wrinkling. Like you dipped it in brake cleaner or something.

No need for the sarcasm and snide remarks "bro". Blow smoke around all you want, but leave the attitude out. I'm speaking from my personal experiences, you're speaking from yours. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

But for the sake of everyone reading, try and improve the grammar next time around...