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AW4 Transmission snake oil additives

dizzymac said:
According to Novak Conversions:What the hell do they know....bad mouth our beloved AW-4...lol

The AW4 is a light to medium-duty transmission. Ours, our callers' and customers' experiences with the AW4 are less than stellar. They have a tendency to generate excessive amounts of heat, and are known for unnecessarily consuming more engine power than some other automatics. The shift points in the AW4 feel odd, and the spotty engagment of the lockup torque converter is idiosyncratic
Click to expand...
I think the shift points are prefect, keeps it right where the torque is.

89CherokeePioneer said:
89 XJ 4.0 AW4 coupled to a 231

I started with clean red fluid, but when cold I would have a bit of a snap on the 1-2 shift (kickdown cable was adjusted properly) It would be perfect when hot though..
Click to expand...
I like the 1-2 shift, makes it feel like a shift kit. :D Mine is still pretty firm when warm.

ehall said:
It's no longer licensed by GM. There is still some licensed old-stock, but otherwise you get solutions that are "clones" or "derivatives" but are not licensed as authentic. IE, the valvoline and pennzoil in your list are Dex-Merc multi-vehicle fluids that are "suitable for use" in Dex-III applications and not the real thing.
Click to expand...
So what should we use in the AW4? I use the Valvoline MaxLife DEX-MERC.
 
ehall said:
It's no longer licensed by GM. There is still some licensed old-stock, but otherwise you get solutions that are "clones" or "derivatives" but are not licensed as authentic. IE, the valvoline and pennzoil in your list are Dex-Merc multi-vehicle fluids that are "suitable for use" in Dex-III applications and not the real thing.
Click to expand...

The licensed thing is not all it's cracked up to be. No doubt they are still using the same formula they used when it was licensed by GM. Doubt they would spend money to research a formula change for an old dying formula.
 
. No doubt they are still using the same formula they used when it was licensed by GM.
Click to expand...
Without the license you are taking their word for it. Some people are comfortable with that. I'm not particularly interested in putting low-cost-to-produce generic multi-vehicle fluid that might or might not meet spec at temp in my 335k mile transmission.
 
ehall said:
Without the license you are taking their word for it. Some people are comfortable with that. I'm not particularly interested in putting low-cost-to-produce generic multi-vehicle fluid that might or might not meet spec at temp in my 335k mile transmission.
Click to expand...
What do you use?
 
ehall said:
Without the license you are taking their word for it. Some people are comfortable with that. I'm not particularly interested in putting low-cost-to-produce generic multi-vehicle fluid that might or might not meet spec at temp in my 335k mile transmission.
Click to expand...

Even with the license you are taking their word for it.
I am not really comfortable with either choice, :rattle:
but there is little I can do about it except mix my own concoction.:D

Unless I am mistaken, GM did not create the formula, or any other formulas, just a spec that refers the test and performance requirements for the test of a fluid that wants to claim to meet that spec, or claim that it is APPROVED. They just created a license around a spec they wrote and then aprroved and sold licenses that required that the test and performance requirments of the spec be meet in the test plus the fee must be ponyed up to call it approved.

Anyway, what are you using, or planning to use when the old stock run out?

Anyway, not knocking your being picky, I am real pickey too.:D Especially about what goes in JEEP!
 
The cliff notes:
Used Dexron/Mercon III, worked great (100% flush well over 100k miles) -- had to add some fluid and used a little Amsoil tranny fluid.
Amsoil smoothed out the tranny a little to hold me over.
Went to a Pennzoil shop and got Mercon V (around 200k miles).
Now I have the same cold start tranny problem -- sometimes.

The whole story:
I have an AW4 with 203k on it (as far as I know -- bought it with 102k). I flushed the tranny 100% at about 140k (I think) and put Mercon/Dexron III (Pennzoil's). Worked great until 200k or so (yeah, yeah -- long time for tranny fluid... I've heard the lecture, but grad school takes its toll). During the 50-60k miles or so I had to add a little. I used some Amsoil -- maybe 1/4 quart. It smoothed out a minor harder shift (mostly out of park if I remember correctly) for what little I used, it worked fine it seemed -- that was with nasty old fluid at about 185-190k miles... now have cold start problem. Then the headache started:

I went to the local parts store and they said to use ATF+4. So I drained the pan and put about 4 quarts in. Then I realized it was an AW4 (the local parts store has heard my complaint, ate the humble pie, and now give me extra attention... and make suggestions by committee -- eh, still a bit scary). After about 200 easy miles, I did a 100% flush with Mercon V at a Pennzoil shop (after specifically asking for Mercon and signing a waiver for Mercon -- the Pennzoil 'place' -- stripped of it's previous 'shop' title -- were convinced I didn't have an AW4)... They said Merc V was 'better', but didn't provide an explaination why it's better when I asked... just a head's up if anyone goes this route). For what it's worth, when they looked up AW4 on their fancy computer system, it did give both Merc/Dex III and V as options.

Now I have the cold start problem. This weekend I intend to drain the pan once again. I'll probably use the 3/4 Amsoil that I have left and if I can find more nearby, I'll replace with all Amsoil. Otherwise, from this thread, TransX and LubeGard seem to be popular so I might mix some in with Dexron/Mercon III.

On a different site (allpar.com maybe?) there was some inflamatory yet interesting remarks. The two general themes were that Dexron/Mercon III (50/50 blended fluid) sticks to the parts better than the more synthetic (70/30) -- score 1 for D/M III. However, there were cliams of increased mpg by 3 (I think) with D/M V (and I admit, it seems my mpg has increased slightly). Two comments peeked my interest, though. 1) 'One guy' said he set the shift points just a little lower to solve the problem with D/M V. 2) The 'other guy' swore by Amsoil and thought everyone else was nuts. It seems to me the more synthetic fluid holds up to the AW4 heat better.

At any rate, I'm in the same spot you're in... thanks for the thread! The guy who did my initial flush remembered my XJ and reminded me that he said to use D/M III when I flush it again. Also, a local dealer shop promptly said to use III, but had no comments on V.

Once warm, there aren't any problems with D/M V. Under 40 degrees the cold start was better (after 7.5 hours), but got worse a little after a short run, then back to no problems -- that was just before I started typing out this response. My guess is that at 40 degrees (a dramatic drop from mid-60s) might have cooled the thinner D/M V on the parts in the tranny, then when the tranny warmed a little the problem returned (not too bad, though --loss of viscosity?), then after a solid 5 minutes of residential putt-putting around, no problems.

All that schoolin' and I'm still learnin' the hard way.
-N8 :read:
 
Lubeguard has two formulas (that I know of) one of the two claims right on the package that its additives convert Dexron/Mercon III to D/M V, which I think adds fuel to the debate on this topic, since one of the posters here uses Lubeguard, and has used it for years, IIRC.

I would be afraid to use (convert to) pure synthetic on and old AW4, for the same reasons I don't use synthetic in an old 4.0 engine. But I have never tried synthetic tranny fluid. My sons friend made the mistake last year of adding a quart of synthetic tranny fluid to a slowly leaking (low) Dodge neon (OBD-II, I forget the year) tranny and the leak got enormous, had to add a mollasses like Lucas tranny additive to slow the leak back down, just to get it across town.

Sounds to me like you have some wandering varnish problems in your valve body. Any time new fluid is put into a transmission there is some risk of varnish deposits coming loose and hanging up in the valves.

What ever you do try, please keep us informed!!!

I would suggest some seafoam or transX and a good hot 20 mile frequent stop and go drive, followed by draining and fluid change to what ever fluid you decide to try next. I suspect synthetic tranny fluid is a bit like TransX, but not as good as TransX or seafoam at cleaning out and disolving varnish, as the TransX and Seafoam have more and better solvents in them for disolving dried on varnish that can make valves stick when the varnish gets soft and gummy.

Temps here have not dropped below 70 F in about 6 weeks, and my AW4 has worked perfectly since it last saw 40 F. I have gone through 2 winters and now the third summer (30,000 miles) since I first had the cold tranny, slipping forward problem. Even at 35 F mine would not slip if I let the engine idle in neutral for about 10 minutes first, and warmed up the tranny fluid.

I wish I new what fluid was in mine, but allas it was just changed by the Prior Owner (PO) before I bought it, 30,000 miles ago. Up to 253,000 miles on the ODO, but don't know the prior history.
 
N8s93XJ:
I went to the local parts store and they said to use ATF+4. So I drained the pan and put about 4 quarts in. Then I realized it was an AW4 (the local parts store has heard my complaint, ate the humble pie, and now give me extra attention... and make suggestions by committee -- eh, still a bit scary).

Does this mean that ATF+4 is wrong to use in a AW4?
 
Oh... wasn't thinking about a full conversion with the Amsoil, just after pulling the plug and topping it off. I did a half-baked test with ATF+4, Merc V, and Amsoil (don't have the III) by sticking screwdrivers in the bottles and hanging the screwdrivers. The Amsoil seemed to hang on the best. Maybe a little extra cling to the tranny with a couple of quarts of Amsoil will take the place of the varnish that was cleaned off? But yeah, seems TransX or Seafoam would be a better 'first step'. ...dang, have a 900 mile trip coming up in a couple of weeks -- was hoping to have this resolved! Thanks for the tips!

Other thoughts:
If Merc V was so good, why make a VI? And, when I asked the jeep dealer shop about Merc V, all I got was a shrug? Yet Pennzoil's lube place was so quick to get rid of it. Dealer didn't want to speak out against their recommended product? Pennzoil knows of a better fluid and trying to dump inventory and preserve the D/M III they have until the VI has been time tested (D/M III has become scarce around here)? I'm suspicious of the vague responses from the dealer and Pennzoil -- without some sort of evidence, whether anecdotal or 'hard' numbers, my natural skepticism jumps right to profit motives.

Tune-up with Bosch Fusion, Autolite wires, clean K&N flat filter, fresh Mobil 1 10/30 "high mileage" variant: I got a ridiculous increase in mpg with this arrangement compared to my last tune-up with Bosch Plats and cheasy wires. I bring it up here because it seems the tranny wants to shift sooner through all the gears -- by about 100-200 rpms. Might be my imagination. However, if this is the case, wouldn't it add credence to 'the guy' who suggested adjusting shift points when using Merc V (from the allpar site)? In any case, the cold start tranny problem was less of a problem after the tune-up... but the outside air temp has also changed (warmer in general, but close to Lake Michigan so the temps swing a bit).

Thoughts on ATF+4 in comparison to Merc/Dex products? Would ATF+4 clean better?
 
I wouldn't use ATF+4 in an AW4, but seems some would. When I told the Jeep mechanic I used some with the AW4... I may as well have said something nasty about his mother. Suffice to say, the response wasn't good. I also got a scolding from the guy who initially flushed my tranny at ~120k or so. Additionally, my cuz is a mechanic -- but we're both most familiar with GM... when I found my owner's manual and read 'Mercon'... yet another scolding and I had to pony-up for the beer for being so careless. Which was just as well... my cuz really needed to "put a beer in it". By that point, I heard enough.
 
I didn't read this thread at all so this may have already been answered, but here is my submission.

First, I tried some standard additives in the past, none did a damn thing to the trans.

The one that cured my slipping problem about five years ago was a can (non aerosol) of Berryman's B-12 Chemtool (carburetor cleaner, that brand in particular). Put a can in (one pint if I recall) and run it for ten minutes, change to a different gear every minute.

Once the ten minutes are up shut it down and immediately drop the drain plug. Drain it then fill it back up like normal.

Go for a test drive and say "wow."

I flush my transmission about ever two years and haven't had a problem with slipping since.
 
Gsequoia,

Great post, Thanks for sharing, but what kind of slipping did it have originally?

I found this:

"
Ford pulls the plug on Mercon.
Here's a link to the original article: http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_artic....cfm?x=b11,0,w

Ford pulls the plug on Mercon:

By Lisa Tocci

For over a decade, Ford Motor Co. has licensed its trademarked Mercon automatic transmission fluid for the service-fill marketplace. Last week, the automaker announced it is going to retire that specification, in a move designed to encourage the lubricants industry to embrace its replacement, the stringent Mercon V spec.

Speaking April 4 in Dearborn, Mich., to the SAE Technical Committee 3 on ATF, Gear Oils and Greases, Ford’s Chintan Ved announced that effective July 1, no new Mercon licenses will be issued. All remaining Mercon licenses will expire on or before June 30, 2007, leaving a clear field thereafter for Mercon V.

Ved, based at Ford’s Automatic Transmission New Product Center in Livonia, Mich., is the company’s lead development engineer for ATF. He noted that although his company has recommended Mercon V for all vehicles for the past seven or eight years, most Ford models on the road continue to be serviced by Mercon. Mercon V, however, is a far better product that more closely resembles the factory-fill ATF which Ford has used for over eight years. It requires the use of a more shear-stable viscosity index improver, and Group II or Group II-plus base oil to meet its viscosity and oxidation targets.

“All transmissions recommending Mercon ATF can now be serviced with Mercon V,” Ved later told Lube Report. “Mercon V is a tighter specification, requiring better anti-oxidation, antiwear and anti-shudder properties from service-fill ATFs. We are doing this because we want to ensure our customers get the better fluid.

“We are in the process of sending official letters to all our licensing program participants, advising them of the change,” he continued. Ford also licenses Mercon SP, for servicing its six-speed automatics, and that will not change. In all, Ford has some 450 products under its three current commercial licenses (Mercon, Mercon V and Mercon SP). Fees to license Ford’s Mercon trademarks ranged from $2,000 to $3,000 per product last year, depending on whether the license holder is an original formulator, a reblender, or a rebrander.

ATF represents about 13 percent of the U.S. automotive lubricants market; after engine oils it is the second-largest volume of product sold. ATF sales have grown steadily over the past 10 years, as the nation’s vehicle population grows and automatics continue to displace manual transmissions. Respondents to the National Petrochemical and Refiners Association’s 2004 Report on U.S. Lubricating Oil and Wax Sales said they sold 197 million gallons of ATF, versus the 167 million gallons reported in 1998.

Mercon V today represents 10 percent of this volume, versus just 1 percent in 1998. However, by far the most popular ATF continues to be Dexron/Mercon fluid, which can meet the basic Mercon spec as well as requirements for General Motors’ trademarked Dexron III fluid. NPRA data shows that around 59 percent of ATF sales in the United States meet both Dexron III and Mercon.

Last July, however, General Motors announced it was closing the door on its Dexron III category, and planned to license only Dexron VI in the future. Its Dexron III licenses all will expire on Dec. 31, 2006. Like Mercon V, Dexron VI is a more robust and shear-stable product, and requires the use of Group II or II-plus base oils. The two are different enough in shift and friction characteristics, though, that GM’s move doomed the Dexron/Mercon confluence.

For those blenders who have been waiting for the other shoe to drop, Ford now has inked an end-date for regular Mercon ATF licenses. After June 30, 2007, blenders will be able to claim their products meet Dexron VI or Mercon V – but only separately."

at:

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166085

This one was interesting too:

http://www.txchange.com/merconv.htm

And I just started reading this one:

http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/306.cfm
 
GSequoia said:
To be completely honest I don't remember the exact slipping it had.
Click to expand...

So what your saying is your memory is slipping now? LOL. Sides effect of B-12 Chemtool exposure perhaps!:eek:
 
I have the same cold start problem, I think, far worse than any of you. If its colder than about 76* out, I start the jeep, turn on the line locks, put it in drive, and then go back inside to shower and brew a pot of coffee.

Before it was this bad (3 years ago), I did the b-12 thing, didn't work, so I did it "more serious", 3 quarts, drove on it for 35 minutes, put it on a tranny machine and did a full flush. no difference at all.

I just let it slip until it hooks up. I'll be replacing the transmission when the new engine goes in later this year.

If anyone cares, my transmission has just under 81,000 miles.
 
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