WJ steering pump on XJ - whining.

[blistovmhz]

WTF? What tire size are you running? Is your pitman nut tight?

35's. I've had issues with this pitman for the past few weeks either way. I can't find a crack, but there must be one cause I had to install another 1/4" washer to get it tight this time, and after "something" slipped 90 degrees last night, I pulled over and took a quick look and it's a little loose again. What gets me though is that I didn't feel it slip, and I didn't tighten it before driving 40km home and everything still felt tight.

The steering fade is making me mental. I don't know what caused it in the first place with the stock pump/box, but I was definitely getting some foaming. New pump/box and no foam, but still getting fade and no, it's not a loose pulley . All I can think is the new fluid un-foams itself faster than I can check, but I still can't think of why this happened in the first place, and continues now.

Gotta get a few hours work done and then I'll go dig into it again.

 

[blistovmhz]

Haven't pulled the pitman yet, but just on visual inspection, it doesn't look like it could've spun.

Track bar and all steering components look to be straight/tight. My steering is all 1.5"x0.250" DOM, so it should be the last thing to break.
I'm starting to worry I bent the hell out of the frame somewhere. I couldn't find anything obvious, but my front axle definitely isn't perfectly centered under the Jeep (it may not have been to begin with though).

Is there anything that can happen to a steering box that'd allow my steering to twist 90 degrees, but still work normally?

P.S. The wall climb was mild. It took very little effort and I wasn't white knuckling the wheel at all. It just crawled up nice and smooth and quiet, but that's definitely where the steering went wonky.

 

[blistovmhz]

Wasn't the pitman spinning . At this point it has to be something in the box, or bent frame.

 

[blistovmhz]

And now that I think more about it, I was climbing a wall on the drivers side, turned slightly left. If the pitman or sector shaft was going to twist, it would've twisted towards the passenger side. This would ultimately result in my steering wheel being pointed left when wheels were straight, so I'm pretty sure at this point that I must have twisted the frame. I really can't imagine my beefy and braced track bar mount bending.

That said though, the mount is braced against the opposite frame rail, and I just can't see bending both frame rails without breaking something else first. I'd figure my axle side track bar mount would tear off long before I twist both frame rails.

I'm out of idea's. Going to check out another durango box on another XJ just so I've got a baseline, but I really doubt it's going to be the issue.

Anyone got anything other than "new jeep time" ?
And if this is frame twist, wtf can I do to beef this up more on the next build? I was crawling up the wall, not smashing stuff. My braces are solid and well placed and I can't think of anywhere else to brace that would be stronger.

 

[yossarian19]

All I'm coming up with is that maybe your control arms slipped. Any movement forward-backward on one or both sides of the axle would do it, I think.

 

[blistovmhz]

All I'm coming up with is that maybe your control arms slipped. Any movement forward-backward on one or both sides of the axle would do it, I think.

I hate shitting on everyone's answers, but control arms are all solid as well. Took weight off axles and gave everything a good visual inspection, then hit it all with a 4' crowbar. Everything's tight.

I'm going to swap out the pitman right now. I've got a few spares and because it's such a big drop, it's hard to tell if it might be bent.
Also going to check out a durango box on another XJ tonight to figure out where the pitman throws at steering center. I think that'll give me my answer.

 

[paddlernate]

I'd only suggest this if you hadn't already looked a couple other things, but are you sure the steering shaft hasn't spun on the gearbox shaft? Maybe you left it a little loose at some point?

 

[blistovmhz]

Possible, but the shaft is also keyed, so it shouldn't be able to spin. Will take a look tonight.

 

[yossarian19]

Depends on the joint design. Many of them squidge closed around the splines as you tighten the bolt. If the bolt wasn't tight, enough steering "feedback" could spin the input shaft in the column.

 

[blistovmhz]

Well, I haven't figured out what happened to my steering, so I assume it must be a bent frame rail.

That aside, back to the original topic, I tried a stock XJ high pressure fitting and (no surprises here) the steering felt pretty much stock. No noticeable additional steering assist over stock.
So, I grabbed my other HP fitting that I bored out about half way between stock XJ and stock WJ, and bored it out to just about WJ size, and WAY too much assist.
1 finger steering now, and almost no return to center at any speed. I'm going to wheel it for the day just to see if the benefit of the ridiculous assist outweighs the horrors of highway driving with twitchy as hell steering.

But, the whine definitely goes away with stock XJ fitting bore, and gets louder as you bore closer to WJ. I AM using the larger return port on the reservoir, with the stock XJ return hose, modified to 1/2" right after the metal part of the tube. Used a 3/8-1/2" barbed hose adapter. The modified return hose decreased the whine slightly, but nowhere near enough. I'm thinking that HP line is just putting out way too much to get back to the reservoir using the stock XJ fitting at the box.

Anyone else running both WJ pump (01+ 4.7L V8) and a 98/99 durango box? You hear about these two combined all the time, but I can't seem to find anyone who's actually done it.

 

[torque062]

I was actually wondering if anybody had first hand experience on the Durango box and WJ pump combo as well.

Wouldn't you think it would be severely noticeable if you bent the frame so bad the steering went 90° off?

 

[blistovmhz]

Re: Re: WJ steering pump on XJ - whining.

I was actually wondering if anybody had first hand experience on the Durango box and WJ pump combo as well.

Wouldn't you think it would be severely noticeable if you bent the frame so bad the steering went 90° off?

Nope. 90d at the wheel is only 12d at the pitman. Don't need much frame bend to throw the pitman/box out that far.

 

[blistovmhz]

Well, got a few hours of wheeling in, and the extra steering assist sure was nice on the trails but it's way too much for comfortable highway driving. I don't know if it's just the bore on the HP fitting, or combination of the WJ pump and Durango box, but it's just twitchy as all hell. I grew up in trucks that handled like this so it doesn't bother me too much, and I'm definitely willing to deal with some twitch for the phenomenally better off-road turning, but I suspect most people would probably run themselves into a ditch in a real hurry with this much assist.

So yea... Anyone else running the same setup wanna chime in?

 

[yossarian19]

I wonder if McMaster or some other industrial supply house sells a metering valve that is up to the task of adjusting PS flow rate. It seems like a good fix to me, anyway, for people that aren't going to go to a hydro assist for whatever reason.
Here we are - McMaster's selection of valves
I'm not an expert (and I'm even too lazy to go grab my textbook right now) but it seems to me that if you fully bore the HP fitting on a WJ pump and install one of these in a custom HP hose, which you can do with ferule locks from a hardware store or hose supply house, you could adjust the flow rate to get the assist you are looking for.
Also
the 4.7 pump runs a hydraulic fan as well as the WJ box and has two returns. Devoting all that flow to just a box and running a single return... well, maybe you should add hydroboost brakes to the PS circuit

 

[torque062]

I bored my fitting out to 7/32" and I enjoy the lighter steering. It's not too light got highway driving IMO either

 

[blistovmhz]

I wonder if McMaster or some other industrial supply house sells a metering valve that is up to the task of adjusting PS flow rate. It seems like a good fix to me, anyway, for people that aren't going to go to a hydro assist for whatever reason.
Here we are - McMaster's selection of valves
I'm not an expert (and I'm even too lazy to go grab my textbook right now) but it seems to me that if you fully bore the HP fitting on a WJ pump and install one of these in a custom HP hose, which you can do with ferule locks from a hardware store or hose supply house, you could adjust the flow rate to get the assist you are looking for.
Also
the 4.7 pump runs a hydraulic fan as well as the WJ box and has two returns. Devoting all that flow to just a box and running a single return... well, maybe you should add hydroboost brakes to the PS circuit

I was thinking the exact same thing about installing a valve, then either control it manually, or just have it automatically adjust based on speed. Will be looking into that this week.
OMG, adding hydroboost to my brakes. Then I'd need another valve to decrease my brake pressure . My rears (KJ discs) don't even work right now (leaking axle seals=bad pads/rotors), and with just the WJ fronts, I stop as fast as my GF does in her Civic. If I throw it in 4x4, I can lock up all 4 35's on pavement (front brakes stop front wheels, front driveline stops rear driveline).

But yea, the WJ pump was designed to power not only a bigger box, but also that hydraulic fan, which is why I never fully trusted all the write ups that say to bore out that fitting to the same size as the WJ. But, I've never seen anyone argue about it so here I am. As I said, I can absolutely deal with the twitch at speed so I'll take the extra boost for now, but valving the HP line does seem like an epic mod.

I think what I really need to figure out is how to increase the flow on the return line or manage the HP side dynamically.

Wait a minute. What's the spring under the high pressure fitting do? Isn't that supposed to regulate pump pressure based on RPM?

 

[blistovmhz]

I bored my fitting out to 7/32" and I enjoy the lighter steering. It's not too light got highway driving IMO either

I did 7/32' to start as well. It was perfect on the highway/street, but not enough assist off road running 35's and front/rear lockers.

That's the thing here. I did the swap for three reasons.

1. My stock XJ box was questionable. It's old, and I've beat the hell out of it. I suspected it may have been on it's way out, and I wanted to eliminate it as a possible source of some popping I've been getting on articulation (wasn't the box, but oh well).
2. My stock pump was whining due to aeration and I couldn't find any leaks. I suspect it was the seal at the pulley.
3. I'm running 35" tires and front/rear auto lockers, and I do a lot of bush runs, and I guess I'm a wimp. I just don't like having to two hand my wheel to get around a tight corner, in off camber situations. Plus I like to keep my coffee hand free.

The difference off road is night and day with this swap. The throw of the durango box is definitely less than stock, but it worked out perfect for me because my 35's were rubbing at full lock on my sway bar mounts and the tie rod was running into the diff cover and coil buckets (buckets trimmed as far as they can be, and still hitting with that 1.5" tie rod).
The throw of the Durango box maxes out with about 1.5mm from my diff cover and buckets and leaves me with 4-5mm of clearance at the sway bar mounts.
Even with the decreased throw, the extra assist means I'm getting to lock faster and I found last night that where I was doing 1 point turns stock, which turned into 2-3 point turns with just the Durango box, I'm not back down to 1 point with the extra assist. It's definitely a worthy upgrade, but I just don't see how MOST people would drive this on the highway.

I'm keeping an eye out for a 1/2" hydraulic valve and variable actuator (no idea where I'm going to find this). I figure I can either tie the actuator/valve to my speedo and automatically decrease pressure to the box when I get above 50km/h, or I'll just throw a switch for street/trail.

Once I get this all figured out, I'll do a proper write up. I can't believe the misinformation on the subject of the Durango box and the WJ pump.

 

[torque062]

Well that's just it. There is WAY too much misinformation for these swaps, or nobody has really done them and talked about it. I

'm also on 35s and locked front and rear, but I think for now I'll just be happy with the extra assist the pump provides and keep a lookout for a Durango box. My tire does rub the lower link of my Rock Krawler 3 link when the steering gets close to full lock.

 

[donthelegend]

I've had my WJ pump installed for a while and when I first did it I didn't bore the XJ fitting out. I did use the 1/2" return line and added a cooler at the same time. Never had any whining, but I also didn't get more powerful steering that I was after.

Just got done boring the fitting out to 17/64 and while I was doing so I noticed something else about the WJ fitting. There are 4 bypass holes vs the 1 on the XJ. I drilled the one on the XJ fitting out slightly (just to the smallest size bit that I've got) and drilled through the other side so now I have 2 holes on the XJ fitting.

I'm wondering if with all the extra flow, that single bleed hole can't let pressure off fast enough and that may be contributing to the "too light" steering you've seen?

I'm way out of my depth to actually give an opinion on what the issue is, just wanted to add my observations. I'm going wheeling next weekend so I'll report back then.

 

[blistovmhz]

Back to the issue of my alignment, I checked both the axle and frame track bar mounts and both seem good. If the axle side was busted or cracked, I should see a crack and some separation on the passenger side of the mount but didn't see any indication of this. On the frame side, the mount should bend toward passenger side as well. As I can't really measure to see if the frame's bent (no points of reference), I parked on the pavement and had my buddy try to pull my Jeep straight sideways (toward driver side) to force the axle right or uni-frame left. He pulled me hard enough to drag my Jeep sideways on dry pavement with aired down 35's while I watched the uni-frame and both track bar mounts. I didn't see any movement at all. What gets me though is that it HAS to be the track bar or mounts. I'm positive I left at least an inch of thread on the track bar when I built it and had the axle centered under the Jeep, and now it's pulled in as tight as it can thread. This suggests to me that I've been slowly pushing the axle to the passenger side for months, and I just keep tightening the track bar to compensate. You'd think though that a full 2" of axle movement would be apparent on visual inspection. WTF? This is making me insane. The next time it shifts over, I won't be able to compensate with the track bar or the drag link without losing a lot of steering to the right.

I've had my WJ pump installed for a while and when I first did it I didn't bore the XJ fitting out. I did use the 1/2" return line and added a cooler at the same time. Never had any whining, but I also didn't get more powerful steering that I was after.

Just got done boring the fitting out to 17/64 and while I was doing so I noticed something else about the WJ fitting. There are 4 bypass holes vs the 1 on the XJ. I drilled the one on the XJ fitting out slightly (just to the smallest size bit that I've got) and drilled through the other side so now I have 2 holes on the XJ fitting.

I'm wondering if with all the extra flow, that single bleed hole can't let pressure off fast enough and that may be contributing to the "too light" steering you've seen?

I'm way out of my depth to actually give an opinion on what the issue is, just wanted to add my observations. I'm going wheeling next weekend so I'll report back then.

Let us know how it goes on the weekend. I still haven't figured it out. The whining seems to come and go which doesn't make any sense as I don't see any aeration. This indicates that it's cavitation, but why would it be intermittent? Seems like once the PS fluid warms up a bit, the whine goes away, but comes back again once it's hot. I get about 25 minutes of wheeling where I've got no whine.