winch brain teaser question

[rstarch345]

You might want to consider the manufactures wording and INTENT for the rating of the winch. They might say it is a 9000 lb winch (rolling resistance) in which case that would equate to maybe 5000 lb dead weight.

So 9000 lb is not necessary a 9000 lb winch.

If I were a manufacturer that had high price winches with a low dead weight pull and wanted to move them, I'd call up marketing and ask how? Marketing come back and says, "What's the maximum weight the winch will pull under ideal conditions". Ergo, level and on concrete. So that is what the winch is rated at.

Point is. A rating is a rating by the manufacturers standard. There is NO U.S. Standard for the rating to be sure that all winches are equal.

 

[dmillion]

i understand what you said. i coulda sworn that they weren't rated to the same standard of pull that vertically rated winches are...

Some of the really cheap winches will be advertised with something along the lines of "Capacity: 9,000lbs. rolling load!" They want to fool you into thinking that it's a 9,000lbs. winch when it's really only like a 2,000lbs. winch, but it only takes 2,000lbs. of pull to get a 9,000lbs. load to roll on flat ground.

I think this may be what's confusing you. No quality winches are sold this way. Warn, Ramsey, MileMarker, Superwinch... when any of these say 9,000lbs. winch they mean that the winch will exert that much pull just before it stalls, so, yes, they could pull 9,000lbs straight up into the air.

 

[pbandj]

This is really not that complicated your 9000lbs winch will provide you with 9000lbs of line tension. If that is enough to get you unstuck your good. If it’s not your winch will stall.

So if your 4000lbs rig is on flat, hard ground and you want to move it with the winch your in good shape. If your rig is buried in texas mud from the top of the hood down or sitting behind a 2,00,000 lbs rock on the trail, it ant gona do it. What possible good will it do to bust out the trig when you have no way of knowing the variables that will be present for any given pull.

This thread is kinda funny.

I saw a guy with 12000lbs winch on a little light buggy get that thing buried up well past the top of his 38s in the snow that there was no way his winch was doing him any good till he moved a LOT of snow.

In conclusion buy the best winch you can and try not to get too stuck before you thing to use it.

I'm just gonna step out and say it :bs:
do a little homework BRONCO, and you will get a pretty solid idea of variables,
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billa...very/index.html
or you can just keep a TIGHT GRIP on your ignorance and just hold on for the ride

that link should probably be required reading before anyone does anymore HF winch posting or gravity defying math postings here

the type of snow that you can bury yourself in past 38's isn't the same kind of snow that would keep you there all day, and your quote:
"there was no way his winch was doing him any good till he moved a LOT of snow"
makes it pretty obvious that you didn't stick around to watch/help and therefore makes your statement just plain presumptive....

SORRY C-ROK- I saw references to trig and my eyes glazed over :wierd:

---------------------------------------------------------------------
I usually laugh when non-members write out a signature every time, but I have such a good "everything is bigger in texas" related quote....
If you split alaska in half, texas would be the 3RD largest state

 

[jdougn]

Warn, at least, rates what their winches can do. Here's a chart copied from their website. Warn Website

Warn 8274-50 12V DC PERFORMANCE SPECS
Line Pull Lbs.(Kgs.) // Line Speed FT./min(M/min.) // Motor Current // Pull by layer Lbs(Kgs.)
0--------------//--73.4 (22.4)------//---55 amps--// 1/8000(3629)
2000(910)--//----22(6.71)------//--190 amps--// 2/7460(3384)
4000(1810) //----12(3.66)------//--275 amps--// 3/6980(3166)
6000(2720) //----9.50(2.90)----//--350 amps--// 4/6620(3003)
8000(3630) //----6.10(1.86)----//--450 amps--// 5/6290(2853)

(Yeah, I know this pic doesn't prove anything but I like it. lol)

 

[pbandj]

GEEZ! every time I type for 10 minutes a few more rediculous comments show up!!
IF YOU HAVE 9000lbs of ROLLING RESISTANCE ( RESISTANCE IS THE KEY WORD!) then you are pulling 9000lbs!!! just for kicks I called my local warn dealer and asked him if the ratings were DEAD PULL or simply rolling a 9000lb vehicle..... of course he laughed and I laughed because it's DEAD PULL!!!! TAKE YOUR TRUCK AND TRAILER WITH YOUR TRAIL RIG ALL HOOKED UP AND LOCK ALL THE BRAKES (TRAILER BRAKES TOO) THAT'LL BE NEAR 9000LBS (ooops left caps on!) and that is what a 9000lb dead pull is!!!! I can roll my 4000lb cj on the pavement by myself, maybe you should pay me $1000 to come along on your trail rides and be an 8000lb winch

 

[Bronco]

I don’t know how I stepped on your tows pb. Sorry. I was just giving the world my take on the subject at hand. I have read the stuff on the link you ref. Interesting, but I don’t find it very useful in advising me in shopping for a winch. I would get the biggest one I can swing and that is practical for my bumper because a bigger winch will get me out of that many more stucks. MHO Take it or leave it.

“makes it pretty obvious that you didn't stick around to watch/help and therefore makes your statement just plain presumptive....”

If fact it was my shovels and my straps that got him and his buddy in the trugy out.

Presumptive?

 

[rockwerks]

GEEZ! every time I type for 10 minutes a few more rediculous comments show up!!
IF YOU HAVE 9000lbs of ROLLING RESISTANCE ( RESISTANCE IS THE KEY WORD!) then you are pulling 9000lbs!!! just for kicks I called my local warn dealer and asked him if the ratings were DEAD PULL or simply rolling a 9000lb vehicle..... of course he laughed and I laughed because it's DEAD PULL!!!! TAKE YOUR TRUCK AND TRAILER WITH YOUR TRAIL RIG ALL HOOKED UP AND LOCK ALL THE BRAKES (TRAILER BRAKES TOO) THAT'LL BE NEAR 9000LBS (ooops left caps on!) and that is what a 9000lb dead pull is!!!! I can roll my 4000lb cj on the pavement by myself, maybe you should pay me $1000 to come along on your trail rides and be an 8000lb winch

OK what part of ROLLING dont you understand? Ask him how much it will lift?

 

[Timber]

PBandJ: If 9000 lbs. is 9000 lbs., which of course it is in terms of *weight* (not force or resistance), then why later did you mention locking brakes to simulate 9000 lbs.? The math of physics doesn't always work linearly. A 100 watt amp will not sound twice as loud as a 50 watt amp.

Edit: Also, weight as a mathematical value is only valid when static, IIRC.

 

[pbandj]

hmm-- gonna have to go one at a time here gang....

xjnation, timber-
9000lbs of rolling resistance on flat pavement, according to bellavistas equations would be a 90,000lb vehicle (resistance = 10% of vehicle weight)
since none of us has a 90,000lb vehicle to test that theory we have to simulate 9000lbs realistically, hence a 9000lb DEAD WEIGHT (dead doesn't roll, just to be clear) would be a truck, trailer, tow rig which many of us DO have lying around
( I am operating under the assumption that dead weight=resistance, correct me if I am wrong)
sorry I was unclear earlier, hope that helps

bronco-
you didn't step on my toes, you just didn't bother to read the information that much of the post referenced before replying, and I guess you didn't quite say what you meant- which is why your original quote WAS presumptive in its syntax... but hey, I'm all about getting things straightened out, that's why I replied to this double gravity winch problem to begin with

anyone else gonna rash me for telling it straight?

 

[Timber]

XUV-This: As far as answers to your initial questions--I don't know. I do know that Ramsey used to make the optional factory XJ winch kit and it mounted with the feet against the front crossmember (not horizontally like normal) and they don't recommend any of their modern ones to be mounted that way. What does this have to do with your initial questions? Winch manufacturers must take some crazy stuff into account that are way beyond the limited physics knowledge I have, so at this point I'll bow out.

PBandJ: I hope my comments earlier didn't come across as any type of personal attack. They weren't, and no rock rash was sent by me.

Edit: "toward" not "against" the front crossmember.

 

[xuv-this]

Some of the really cheap winches will be advertised with something along the lines of "Capacity: 9,000lbs. rolling load!" They want to fool you into thinking that it's a 9,000lbs. winch when it's really only like a 2,000lbs. winch, but it only takes 2,000lbs. of pull to get a 9,000lbs. load to roll on flat ground. I think this may be what's confusing you. No quality winches are sold this way. Warn, Ramsey, MileMarker, Superwinch... when any of these say 9,000lbs. winch they mean that the winch will exert that much pull just before it stalls, so, yes, they could pull 9,000lbs straight up into the air.

Point is. A rating is a rating by the manufacturers standard. There is NO U.S. Standard for the rating to be sure that all winches are equal.

i thought i wasn't totally crazy. now THAT makes sense. thanks yall'.

IF YOU HAVE 9000lbs of ROLLING RESISTANCE ( RESISTANCE IS THE KEY WORD!) then you are pulling 9000lbs!!! just for kicks I called my local warn dealer and asked him if the ratings were DEAD PULL or simply rolling a 9000lb vehicle..... of course he laughed and I laughed because it's DEAD PULL!!!!

thank you for the verification. makes me feel better that mine is a warn.

 

[Timber]

Some of the really cheap winches will be advertised with something along the lines of "Capacity: 9,000lbs. rolling load!" They want to fool you into thinking that it's a 9,000lbs. winch when it's really only like a 2,000lbs. winch, but it only takes 2,000lbs. of pull to get a 9,000lbs. load to roll on flat ground.

I think this may be what's confusing you. No quality winches are sold this way. Warn, Ramsey, MileMarker, Superwinch... when any of these say 9,000lbs. winch they mean that the winch will exert that much pull just before it stalls, so, yes, they could pull 9,000lbs straight up into the air.

Alright. I know I wrote that I'd bow out, but I guess I didn't read this post closely before I wrote that. Try to get any of these manufacturers to honor their warranty if you tell them that you were lifting the rated line load overhead. Seriously. Call one. Any of them, and say that you burned up your winch by LIFTING the rated line load and see what they say. I think you'll be UNpleasantly surprised.
EDIT: The fact that Warn sells an entirely different line of winches dedicated to overhead lifting ought to be a clue.

 

[dmillion]

Try to get any of these manufacturers to honor their warranty if you tell them that you were lifting the rated line load overhead.

I never said they would warranty it. You're right, they won't. But a Warn winch rated at 9,000lbs can deliver 9,000lbs. of line tension, meaning that it is POSSIBLE for it to pull a 9,000lbs. load straight up. Would it be smart to use it that way? No. Would they warranty it if you did? No. Is the winch at least theoretically capable of accomplishing the feat? Yes.