Citation: http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?p=8512
CSmith
I have been thinking about installing a steering brake in the rear to use as a cheap manual traction control. I see that Scotty has one. Did you go with the one handle or 2 handle style? How effective is it, and can you actually "steer" with it. I am interested in any comments about installation and operation, aside from the obvious "Get a locker".
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scotty
i really like it. the only potential downside is that it takes more thot to operate. thisis a plus,for me,tho. anyone can drive a rig witha spool or a locker. the turning brake takes alot more awareness of where your tires are,and what theyre doing,so its more interesting,and more of a challenge than your conventional locker
i can be cruisn along,hit a slick spot and get a wheel spinnin,pull the lever onthat side and it just goes-its really cool. i can use it to steer somewhat. not nearly to the extent youl prolly can in a rail,but it does help alittle in tight turns when its slick,and it works wonders for climbing out of ruts. my open diffed friends can be going back and forth withthe wheels cut one way or the other,trying to climb out. all i gotta do is pull the lever and ill pop right out.
my frined also uses one in his xj(44 front,rear d60) with a 205 xfer.he can put the xfer in front wheel drive and pretty much pivot on the one wheel. he did this to get himself out from between 2 trees.we prolly could not have got him out otherwise without hooking up a strap or cutting down one of the trees.
i have learned not to engege them with such vigor and enthusiasm,at least util i get my 14 botl swapped. i was trying to climb a slick hill,and was spinning the tires very fastin 2nd gear.i was sawing the front wheels back and forth,and pumping the right rear brake very hard,and very quickly.i then heard a large bang which turned out to be my spider gears and rear u joint
i can also use both levers as a hand brake to stop myself smack in the middle of a hill. i can brake right hand,steer left hand,gas right foot,clutch left foot and start on a real steep incline.
another thing thats cool is confusing rednecks. they dont know what to think when they see you "stuck" and spinning a tire,then see you ook around,and thenthat tire quits spinning,and you driv out of your stuck. the looks on their faces can be quite comical
only thing is for it to be this effective,i think you gotta run disc brakes. i know they sell a steering brake for drum equipped buggys,but i sdont tink it will work near as well.at the very least,youll be eating the shoes very,very quickly
withthe disc brkes,i can get a wheel completly off the ground,and stop it from spining.other side will propel me forward just fine.
im using the dual handle. i wouldnt use the single lever,as you wont be able to use it to engage both brakes at the same time.
install was ez. ran the line frm the proportioning valve to the brake in the cab,ran a line from each side to above the rear wheel. took them thru the floor and connected the hard lines to the calipers with factory front brake hoses for a 77 chevy 4wd pickup.
its i minor PITA getting the system bled,but not to bad,and worth it when youre done.
further questions?
if i could find single in,single out levers cheap enuff,id prolly run them on the front,too.cept then id need more hands
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CSmith
Scotty, thanks for the reply! My doubts are gone, but I have some questions. I will be staying with drums, which should not be a problem for me since I do not run this thing as hard as you do (at least not yet! ) Where did you get the unit? A VW one would have metric fittings, no?
I was surprised that you could pull both levers at once. I was all set on the single lever style for quick left-right modulation, and did not even consider the dual.
How about a single lever style for your front? It's a lot less likely that you would want to stop only both front wheels. This would keep you to 3 levers. Or, you could put in a combination of front/rear-left/right levers and remove the steering wheel
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scotty
i got mine at a local buggy shop called "larrys offroad".it is a CNC. you could also look thru a vw trends mag,or the equivalent.prices range from $100 to $125.
yes,they do come with metric fittings. i found some adapter fittings at auto zone that screwed right into the unit,that took a standard 5/16 breakline. ask wherever you buy it,they may sell adapter fittings there.
a single handle prolly would be fine for the front. the prollem is that the front has 2 lines out of the proportioning valve,to each front wheel,and its prolly not a good idea to Y them together into the single inlet of a turning brake. i have not seen any turning brakes that have 2 inlets,since its pretty standard to only use 1 line to the rear wheels,and only the "creative" types like us would want to use them up front. one way around this would be to run the rear to the front wheels. i.e.,from rear output on prop valve,to turn brake,out left/right to each front wheel. you could then use a single lever for the front. they do make a single in/single out "staging brake" that you could plumb into each line(that used to run to the front wheels) from the proportion valve to the rear wheels. i think i could get away with it with big tires and 4 wheel discs,but am not sure how the braking system would react to front line pressure runing to drum brakes and vice versa,plus smaller tires that are easier to lock up.
if a person didnt mind 4 levers,or simply wanted to use a single lever brake for the rear,he could easily use the single in/out staging brakes for the front. a factor that discourages me from doing this is the fact that the single in/out staging brakes are no cheaper.so youll have to spend $200-$250 for the front,instead of $100 to $125.
another thot that i had was a hydraulic "park lock" also sold at buggy shops. theyre only about $40,so buying 2 of em wouldnt be as big a deal. i could put one in each front line. it wouldnt be nearly as versatile as the steering brake,but if i had one front wheel blatantly off the ground,i could apply brake pressure,shut the valve to keep pressure,effectively transfering power away from the dangling wheel to the wheel still on the ground. i have been in enuff situations where this ability would prolly have allowed further forward progress that its prolly worth doing. another advantage would be hydraulic-lock-ability of all 4 wheels. i plan on making a lever to hold my rear turn brake levers upright,making them into an effective parking brake.my xj frined has a little flip up lever,and his steering brake(also a CNC) held his jeep on his ver steep driveway for over a week without moving.
i dont know,tho. ive got a welded carrier i had intended to install in my front end,but now that i get to talking about it again,not sure if ill still do it or not.im sure that the park locks would be alot easier on parts than a welded diff
hmmmmmm...
also,for whatever its worth,rapid right/left modualtion does not really seem to be neccessary. in most cases,when one starts spinning,simply applying pressure to that wheel till enuff power is sent to the other side to move you is all that neccessary. you can pull on both levers,since each lever has its own tiny master cyl.this is yet one more advantage,since these master cyls are not power assisted,if the engnie stalls,i can pretty effectively use the levers to stop me.they act the same wether the engnes running or not.
im not really sure what was going thru my mind when i blew out my spiders.i was crankin on that baby real fast,and real hard.it seemed to be working,and was starting toinch my way up,but prolly if id calmed down and applyed more gentle,constant pressure,it prolly would have been as effective,plus i may not have blown my rear end up.
good luck with your install,and youll defiantely have alot of fun with it after youre thru. let me know if ya need anything else...
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CSmith
Hey Scotty,
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CSmith
Hey Scotty,
You CAN use a single lever set up in the front! The factory combination valve that you still have plumbed in served 2 purposes: 1) as a metering valve to apply the (former) rear drums first, and 2)as a proportioning valve to reduce pressure to the rear. I am assuming that you changed the master cylinder to a disc/disc cylinder when you did the conversion. These are different than a disc/drum cylinder in that they use different piston-spring rates to sequence the application of the brakes internally. I got this info from the September 1996 issue of Street Rodder article by Ralph Lisena of Engineered Components. All the info from that article and more is on their website http://ecihotrodbrakes.com/ Look in the brake facts section under Disc/Disc. There is a schematic that shows just 1 line to the front, split with a "T" fitting. You would substitute the single lever steering brake for the "T". You should probably install an adjustable proportioning valve in the feed to the rear lines, although this is optional. The 2 psi residual pressure valves would not be necessary in your application since the master cylinder is well above the calipers. These guys WILL talk to you if you have any questions. You can call them at 860-872-7046.
-Craig Engineered Components http://ecihotrodbrakes.com/
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scotty's
actually,im still running a factory type booster/master cyl. when i first got it running i put the booster and m/c from a 78 impala on it,since my stock plastic one was melted. i recently swapped in a j10 booster,but am still running the impala m/c.
it stops just fine,i havent really had the need to swap on a disc m/c yet.again,the big tires help out,cause a 100 lb 38" tire is harder to lock up.
hmmmm.wonder if i could eliminate the proportionaing valve alltogether,and add a adjustable vlave to the rear.
thanx for the links- ill check em out
__________________
CSmith
I have been thinking about installing a steering brake in the rear to use as a cheap manual traction control. I see that Scotty has one. Did you go with the one handle or 2 handle style? How effective is it, and can you actually "steer" with it. I am interested in any comments about installation and operation, aside from the obvious "Get a locker".
__________________
scotty
i really like it. the only potential downside is that it takes more thot to operate. thisis a plus,for me,tho. anyone can drive a rig witha spool or a locker. the turning brake takes alot more awareness of where your tires are,and what theyre doing,so its more interesting,and more of a challenge than your conventional locker
i can be cruisn along,hit a slick spot and get a wheel spinnin,pull the lever onthat side and it just goes-its really cool. i can use it to steer somewhat. not nearly to the extent youl prolly can in a rail,but it does help alittle in tight turns when its slick,and it works wonders for climbing out of ruts. my open diffed friends can be going back and forth withthe wheels cut one way or the other,trying to climb out. all i gotta do is pull the lever and ill pop right out.
my frined also uses one in his xj(44 front,rear d60) with a 205 xfer.he can put the xfer in front wheel drive and pretty much pivot on the one wheel. he did this to get himself out from between 2 trees.we prolly could not have got him out otherwise without hooking up a strap or cutting down one of the trees.
i have learned not to engege them with such vigor and enthusiasm,at least util i get my 14 botl swapped. i was trying to climb a slick hill,and was spinning the tires very fastin 2nd gear.i was sawing the front wheels back and forth,and pumping the right rear brake very hard,and very quickly.i then heard a large bang which turned out to be my spider gears and rear u joint
i can also use both levers as a hand brake to stop myself smack in the middle of a hill. i can brake right hand,steer left hand,gas right foot,clutch left foot and start on a real steep incline.
another thing thats cool is confusing rednecks. they dont know what to think when they see you "stuck" and spinning a tire,then see you ook around,and thenthat tire quits spinning,and you driv out of your stuck. the looks on their faces can be quite comical
only thing is for it to be this effective,i think you gotta run disc brakes. i know they sell a steering brake for drum equipped buggys,but i sdont tink it will work near as well.at the very least,youll be eating the shoes very,very quickly
im using the dual handle. i wouldnt use the single lever,as you wont be able to use it to engage both brakes at the same time.
install was ez. ran the line frm the proportioning valve to the brake in the cab,ran a line from each side to above the rear wheel. took them thru the floor and connected the hard lines to the calipers with factory front brake hoses for a 77 chevy 4wd pickup.
its i minor PITA getting the system bled,but not to bad,and worth it when youre done.
further questions?
if i could find single in,single out levers cheap enuff,id prolly run them on the front,too.cept then id need more hands
__________________
CSmith
Scotty, thanks for the reply! My doubts are gone, but I have some questions. I will be staying with drums, which should not be a problem for me since I do not run this thing as hard as you do (at least not yet! ) Where did you get the unit? A VW one would have metric fittings, no?
I was surprised that you could pull both levers at once. I was all set on the single lever style for quick left-right modulation, and did not even consider the dual.
How about a single lever style for your front? It's a lot less likely that you would want to stop only both front wheels. This would keep you to 3 levers. Or, you could put in a combination of front/rear-left/right levers and remove the steering wheel
__________________
scotty
i got mine at a local buggy shop called "larrys offroad".it is a CNC. you could also look thru a vw trends mag,or the equivalent.prices range from $100 to $125.
yes,they do come with metric fittings. i found some adapter fittings at auto zone that screwed right into the unit,that took a standard 5/16 breakline. ask wherever you buy it,they may sell adapter fittings there.
a single handle prolly would be fine for the front. the prollem is that the front has 2 lines out of the proportioning valve,to each front wheel,and its prolly not a good idea to Y them together into the single inlet of a turning brake. i have not seen any turning brakes that have 2 inlets,since its pretty standard to only use 1 line to the rear wheels,and only the "creative" types like us would want to use them up front. one way around this would be to run the rear to the front wheels. i.e.,from rear output on prop valve,to turn brake,out left/right to each front wheel. you could then use a single lever for the front. they do make a single in/single out "staging brake" that you could plumb into each line(that used to run to the front wheels) from the proportion valve to the rear wheels. i think i could get away with it with big tires and 4 wheel discs,but am not sure how the braking system would react to front line pressure runing to drum brakes and vice versa,plus smaller tires that are easier to lock up.
if a person didnt mind 4 levers,or simply wanted to use a single lever brake for the rear,he could easily use the single in/out staging brakes for the front. a factor that discourages me from doing this is the fact that the single in/out staging brakes are no cheaper.so youll have to spend $200-$250 for the front,instead of $100 to $125.
another thot that i had was a hydraulic "park lock" also sold at buggy shops. theyre only about $40,so buying 2 of em wouldnt be as big a deal. i could put one in each front line. it wouldnt be nearly as versatile as the steering brake,but if i had one front wheel blatantly off the ground,i could apply brake pressure,shut the valve to keep pressure,effectively transfering power away from the dangling wheel to the wheel still on the ground. i have been in enuff situations where this ability would prolly have allowed further forward progress that its prolly worth doing. another advantage would be hydraulic-lock-ability of all 4 wheels. i plan on making a lever to hold my rear turn brake levers upright,making them into an effective parking brake.my xj frined has a little flip up lever,and his steering brake(also a CNC) held his jeep on his ver steep driveway for over a week without moving.
i dont know,tho. ive got a welded carrier i had intended to install in my front end,but now that i get to talking about it again,not sure if ill still do it or not.im sure that the park locks would be alot easier on parts than a welded diff
also,for whatever its worth,rapid right/left modualtion does not really seem to be neccessary. in most cases,when one starts spinning,simply applying pressure to that wheel till enuff power is sent to the other side to move you is all that neccessary. you can pull on both levers,since each lever has its own tiny master cyl.this is yet one more advantage,since these master cyls are not power assisted,if the engnie stalls,i can pretty effectively use the levers to stop me.they act the same wether the engnes running or not.
im not really sure what was going thru my mind when i blew out my spiders.i was crankin on that baby real fast,and real hard.it seemed to be working,and was starting toinch my way up,but prolly if id calmed down and applyed more gentle,constant pressure,it prolly would have been as effective,plus i may not have blown my rear end up.
good luck with your install,and youll defiantely have alot of fun with it after youre thru. let me know if ya need anything else...
__________________
CSmith
Hey Scotty,
__________________
CSmith
Hey Scotty,
You CAN use a single lever set up in the front! The factory combination valve that you still have plumbed in served 2 purposes: 1) as a metering valve to apply the (former) rear drums first, and 2)as a proportioning valve to reduce pressure to the rear. I am assuming that you changed the master cylinder to a disc/disc cylinder when you did the conversion. These are different than a disc/drum cylinder in that they use different piston-spring rates to sequence the application of the brakes internally. I got this info from the September 1996 issue of Street Rodder article by Ralph Lisena of Engineered Components. All the info from that article and more is on their website http://ecihotrodbrakes.com/ Look in the brake facts section under Disc/Disc. There is a schematic that shows just 1 line to the front, split with a "T" fitting. You would substitute the single lever steering brake for the "T". You should probably install an adjustable proportioning valve in the feed to the rear lines, although this is optional. The 2 psi residual pressure valves would not be necessary in your application since the master cylinder is well above the calipers. These guys WILL talk to you if you have any questions. You can call them at 860-872-7046.
-Craig Engineered Components http://ecihotrodbrakes.com/
__________________
scotty's
actually,im still running a factory type booster/master cyl. when i first got it running i put the booster and m/c from a 78 impala on it,since my stock plastic one was melted. i recently swapped in a j10 booster,but am still running the impala m/c.
it stops just fine,i havent really had the need to swap on a disc m/c yet.again,the big tires help out,cause a 100 lb 38" tire is harder to lock up.
hmmmm.wonder if i could eliminate the proportionaing valve alltogether,and add a adjustable vlave to the rear.
thanx for the links- ill check em out
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