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Running Lean

Once you get that engine running, I strongly recommend checking the O2 sensor readings at the O2 sensor, and at the ECU to see if they are getting the same data at both locations, or if the ECU is getting biased data.


Are you familiar with the ZDDP oil issue? If not, you might want to take a close look at what oil you pick!!! See the long threads here on ZDDP being pulled from new oils and cam failures it is said to causing on old flat tappet engines and new engines during break in.
 
Once you get that engine running, I strongly recommend checking the O2 sensor readings at the O2 sensor, and at the ECU to see if they are getting the same data at both locations, or if the ECU is getting biased data.


Are you familiar with the ZDDP oil issue? If not, you might want to take a close look at what oil you pick!!! See the long threads here on ZDDP being pulled from new oils and cam failures it is said to causing on old flat tappet engines and new engines during break in.

Hmm, I'll have to take a look at that thread. So its bad? Does it say ZDDP any where on the lable or on back?

I was thinking I'll graph the O2 sensor with my Vantage Pro and I also own a Solus with the "Jeep Connector" so I can plug into that yellow under hood outlet and get live data stream. I'll have to compare whats going on. The problem is the data stream is very delayed and the update rate of the Solus tends to be slow. Thats why a lot of times I use the Vantage to catch issues.
 
Thats the thing, who knows whats really different...maybe I should go all RENIX?:sure:

As many problems as you have had, I would try and find a good low mileage Renix engine at JY. I would not trust the head, block or even the manifolds after all that history. But I am not an engine mechanic, Just sold equipment to them for 15 years. I did my fist head job 2 years ago. It was a Renix, had to deal with a cracked and warped Exhaust manifold. Duct tape did wonders (LOL JK!). I actually made a copper shim for the two inner Ex-pipe connections, to make the whole bloody mess flat! Have about 40,000 miles on it now, with no leaks. Also used copper studs on the head for the manifolds like 5-90 recommended.

But as you pointed out, the Renix MAP, MAT and TPS- ECU system makes an intake leak unlikely to run the engine lean. It compensates with more fuel and high idle usually.

The more I think about it, it sounds like an oil problem or O2 - ECU problem.
 
Yeah, well...I just want my Jeep to work for about another year or so. I found a 99 XJ with 113,000 miles on it and its a 5 speed manual. I want it bad but I'm going to wait a little, I'm sure I'll find another one. I'm paying off my Mustang GT in 2 weeks and I want to buy a Jeep in cash. I don't want to finance anything any more.
 
I use an old high impedance analog volt meter, set to the 5 Volt DC range. I would not trust data from the data port. Several pins on my 87 data port are dead, or useless. I would go directly to the ECU to take readings, and as close to the O2 sensor as possible. Or do all three?

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1012701&highlight=oxygen+sensor+renix+test

Also of interest:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=919789&highlight=oxygen+sensor+renix+test

and on ZDDP and oils:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=923009&highlight=zddp+oil
 
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2mm on the gasket is fine. Use a Renix gasket to be sure. For fun, match the intake to the gasket and the head ports to the gasket like I did. But, I , like Mike, am not convinced this is a vacuum leak. Heck, I'm not convinced it's a leaning out problem!! As for cams, I think we're splitting hairs here. If the engine ran that lean, there would be driveability issues. I'm thinking it was probably not bored correctly to the piston size.
 
2mm on the gasket is fine. Use a Renix gasket to be sure. For fun, match the intake to the gasket and the head ports to the gasket like I did. But, I , like Mike, am not convinced this is a vacuum leak. Heck, I'm not convinced it's a leaning out problem!! As for cams, I think we're splitting hairs here. If the engine ran that lean, there would be driveability issues. I'm thinking it was probably not bored correctly to the piston size.

I am also doubting the lean theory, unless he has an entirely new heavy duty over sized cooling system keeping the engine from overheating the coolant and boiling over. And any exhaust problems, like a clogged cat would cause noticeable problems as well.

I had a Dodge Charger lean burn, '76, 400-4Barrel, that cooked the cooling system, wiped out the Transmission 7 times (cooked the T fluid), blew hoses and 20 lb caps like clock work, but the engine kept running, and it never used oil in the 4 years, 78,000 miles I put on it.

A bad bypass valve on the oil pump would show up on the dash, but what about air entrainment, it would show low pressure too I think?

Leaking injectors at shut down washing oil off the pistons?

I like your machine shop screwed up idea, but they have screwed it up more than once now if that is the case, right? What about a warped block?

One bad leaky fuel injector might make sense. It wipes oil off the piston causing damage, causes 1-2 other (next to fire) cylinders to run too lean as the O2 sensor compensates a little late, but does not run the entire engine lean, just one rich (leaking injector) and one lean, the next injector, and a little excess gas in the oil causes piston scoring?

Does not take long for one leaky injector to trash an engine, with little warning on a non OBD-II system from what I have read.
 
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For the longest while I thought it was the machine shop too. Look, we are all human and we all make mistakes. I've been working on cars for over 10 years and 5 years professionally. I'm ASE certified and have done everything from drive ability diagnostics to head jobs and oil changes. At the same time, I haven't seen everything and I always learn something new every day. I'm pretty open minded and I'm kind of stumped on this. My whole thing is if my engine is burning pistons this bad because of some issue you think you'd notice it as a drive ability problem. But who knows, I just want to get it corrected and use my Jeep. Any other ideas? I still have my old oil, I'm gonna go smell it. If I had a leaky enough injector to ruin my engine like this you'd think I'd have an abnormally long crank time though. I've checked residual fuel pressure and it was good, although I tested it a long time ago. I'm going to have to re check everything as it stands now. I really wonder if by cleaning C101 I inadvertently fixed my issue, it really cleaned up the throttle response and you can tell over all the all around drive ability is much cleaner.
 
2mm on the gasket is fine. Use a Renix gasket to be sure. For fun, match the intake to the gasket and the head ports to the gasket like I did. But, I , like Mike, am not convinced this is a vacuum leak. Heck, I'm not convinced it's a leaning out problem!! As for cams, I think we're splitting hairs here. If the engine ran that lean, there would be driveability issues. I'm thinking it was probably not bored correctly to the piston size.

Common sense would indicate who cares how much contact area there is on the gasket, if its sealed then its sealed. Unless its something of greater pressure then it should be fine, but I've also learned to never assume anything and always test components when you can. I think technically there is some type of issue with the amount of contact, but come on...its not going to burn up an engine like this.
 
Did you keep track of gas mileage?
 
On a quick side note, here is the remains of a piston from a single over head cam Ford engine, 2.0 4 cylinder from a Focus. I was diagnosing a CEL for running lean, I was running the car on the shop floor and it dropped the seat for the intake valve (I believe it was intake), the valve got stuck open and crashed the piston. Turns out its a common problem on the 2.0s because the intake running on the number one piston gets a leak and runs the cylinder lean and hot. But this happens over 70 or 80k miles before it takes a crap. Anyway, here is the carnage of the piston I kept.

IMAG0263.jpg


IMAG0262.jpg
 
Did you keep track of gas mileage?

Yeah, I kind of stopped "keeping track" a long, long time ago BUT I always get around 14 or 15 mpg. I always look at and reset my miles when I fill up and its always with in 10 or 20 miles per tank so I pretty much know what I'm always getting mpg wise.

FYI, I noted earlier that I run 32's, which are really worn down to 30's. Manual tranny and 4'56s. I've read that "severe bogging" or over loading can cause this but I'm pretty sure thats not my problem.
 
Ecomike, can you give me some informational points of what I need to know on oils? I'm trying to read all these posts and there is 11 pages just on the oil thread plus the other links. lol Thanks for the info though, I'm a total information guru but I'm trying to get the gist of it. I'm reading over the O2 stuff right now.
 
Make sure you use an oil with no less than .12% ZDDP, or use a ZDDP additive during the break in period.
 
The HO head is overrated. Power gains in an HO were more in the upper RPM ranges anyway. Besides, there were other factors that contributed to the HP gains on an HO. At it's introduction, it came with a better fuel injection system, bigger throttle body, better header, and no EGR. All those mods combined , without the better flowing head, probably accounted for the bulk of the HP increase. You'll be just fine with a Renix head if that's what you wanna do..


Personally, having driven both, I feel that the Renix has more grunt down low, and the HO more power above 2K RPM.

The HO head had it's valves relocated to flow better, but the limiting factor is that it's not a cross flow head, just so much performance you can get out of what is essentially a tractor head.

If you didn't have to smog it live would be easy, just use all the Ho manifolds and adapt your TPS to the HO throttle body. You could still do that, but you'll have to figure out a way to get the EGR tube installed.

FWIW the Renix ECU doesn't really give two sh!ts about the EGR. I don't even know if mine has functioned for the last two years. Give it good MAP/TPS and CPS signals and it will run. There's no EGR flow sensors or anything, just a simple vacuum solenoid that get's turned on. I don't think EGR is related to your issue.

Is it possible that you have a timing issue rather than a mixture issue? The Renix knock sensor can mask some pretty screwed up timing.
 
I picked up my pistons this morning when I dropped off my cylinder head to be checked out. Well, after laying out the pistons and looking at the marks I noticed most of the burning thats going on is on the spark plug side of the skirt. I'm wondering because if thats where the flame front starts and is the hottest. I'm almost convinced it might be a bad injector. Anyway, thats about all I have for now. I'll post picks of the damage after work.
 
I picked up my pistons this morning when I dropped off my cylinder head to be checked out. Well, after laying out the pistons and looking at the marks I noticed most of the burning thats going on is on the spark plug side of the skirt. I'm wondering because if thats where the flame front starts and is the hottest. I'm almost convinced it might be a bad injector. Anyway, thats about all I have for now. I'll post picks of the damage after work.

unless it's a spark advance issue, in which case that could also cause that. WHat plugs are you running, perhaps a colder plug to carry the heat out of the combustion chamber?
 
unless it's a spark advance issue, in which case that could also cause that. WHat plugs are you running, perhaps a colder plug to carry the heat out of the combustion chamber?

Not sure, I'll have to look. Im pretty good about running OEM type parts. Hmm, I'll have to check the advance thing out. I'll have to read up on it, why wouldnt it advance? Cam/Crank sensors?
 
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