Rear flex with Rusty's. Is this normal?

[Bones]

I sincerely doubt it. They are brand new Old Man EMUs.

Did you say these were OME springs or Rusty's actual springs? I think you meant the shocks were OME's and springs Rusty's but wanted to clarify. I would make sure to loosen and retighten the shackles and both ends of the springs while the weight is full on the packs. Also take it out and really flex it up a few times to limber up the springs.

Track bar binding is a problem with any good flexing lift. The best way to eliminate your bind is to move the track bar up over the top of the axle on a custom mount. It doesn't have to be fancy, just strong. Make sure to keep the draglink nearly parallel to the track bar (Like doing an over under type steering).

Now the "flex" shot

\

Bones :skull1:
#6

 

[SV1CEC]

Did you say these were OME springs or Rusty's actual springs? I think you meant the shocks were OME's and springs Rusty's but wanted to clarify. I would make sure to loosen and retighten the shackles and both ends of the springs while the weight is full on the packs. Also take it out and really flex it up a few times to limber up the springs.

Right, the shocks are OME while the springs are Rusty's.

Track bar binding is a problem with any good flexing lift. The best way to eliminate your bind is to move the track bar up over the top of the axle on a custom mount. It doesn't have to be fancy, just strong. Make sure to keep the draglink nearly parallel to the track bar (Like doing an over under type steering).

Yes, this is what I am hoping to do sometime in the future. Yours looks pretty interesting. Any problems with the sway bar brackets etc.? I would appreciate some more details, you can e-mail me direct [email protected].

Now the "flex" shot

Bones :skull1:
#6

Gee, this front end can really flex. Are your springs still in their position there? I am not sure if I want that much flex at the front, but if it does not bring any additional problems, why not? And this is with short arms, as far as I can see!!! Bravo!

Rgds

 

[Bones]

I am not sure if I want that much flex at the front, but if it does not bring any additional problems, why not? And this is with short arms, as far as I can see...

Yes I am using "short arms", but they are on the RE drop brackets.
There are disadvantages to too much flex in the front. That's what limiting straps are for. I will be putting one in this year, more for the total drop on the axle (like when standing nose up in a steep climb) then it will be for one side or the other drop. In other words, it will be centered on the axle not at the outboard ends.

Any problems with the sway bar brackets etc.?

The brackets had to be modified slightly. The biggest problem with any over under is the close clearances to the diff cover and coil pads on full lock turning.

Are your springs still in their position there?

They unseat some but the bump stop extensions from RE add enough length to guide them back where they belong.

Bones :skull1:
#6

 

[SV1CEC]

The brackets had to be modified slightly. The biggest problem with any over under is the close clearances to the diff cover and coil pads on full lock turning.

I am not sure I understand what an "over under" is, at least not when refering to 4x4s!!!

The drop-down brackets is next on my wish-list. I got very close to buying them, but then the seller had some problems, I run out of money etc. so I am still hoping for them.

Thanks for all the info, appreciated.

Rgds

 

[woody]

By over & under he means the steering drag link is over the knuckle and the tie rod is under it...

 

[SV1CEC]

By over & under he means the steering drag link is over the knuckle and the tie rod is under it...

Yes, yes, yes, silly me!!!!

Sorry, not enough caffeine in my system at that time.

Rgds

 

[satan]

Um... Since the 4-corners work as a "system" ...
... shouldn't someone post in here about the spring rate of the front coils??

IF you're indeed running a fair mount of arch in a too-short rear spring, and as you mention the rates are kinda "high" (stiff) back there... Why hasn't there been any discussion on the front spring rates? From the few fotos I looked at it appear to me that the rates (front to rear) are mis-matched - enough so that it's eaiser for the rear leaves to force the body to roll into the front suspension rather than allow the rear axle to move in relation to the body...

... now, granted, switching to a stiffer front coil WILL supply more force to the body, which is something to consider, but certainly you'll feel more balanced after changing rates... (IMHO, of course)

Really the "more correct" answer would be to install a leaf pack designed for the vehicle (no offence, but short is NOT right!) and with a proper rate to match your front componantry...

 

[2xtreme]

1) There are many reasons why springs do and do not flex!! Some of the issues can have to do with weight, use, friction between leaves, bushings, shackles, torque of bolts, etc, etc.

2) I believe that Rusty's and RE's springs are manufactured by the same company.

3) If you did not install the components then you will not have a good idea of what could be wrong with the instlation, bushings , lube, torque, etc

4) If you have not flexed the springs much then they are not "worn in". If you have it as a daily driver and you need to flex them try carrying some heavy cargo for a few days or better yet take it off road to flex it.

5) not a single one of the photos you posted would I expect the rear to flex any more. You need to flex to the point of a rear tire off the ground to show the total flex in the rear.

6) do not take a suppliers problems to the board unless you can prove that it is the suppliers problems. No one is perfect, we are all human, Rusty makes some very good products for a very good price and he has supported the xj community for a long time.

Best of Luck,
michael

 

[SV1CEC]

1) There are many reasons why springs do and do not flex!! Some of the issues can have to do with weight, use, friction between leaves, bushings, shackles, torque of bolts, etc, etc.

I agree, and that is why I asked for some help.

2) I believe that Rusty's and RE's springs are manufactured by the same company.

Could very well be, I do not know that so I can't comment.

3) If you did not install the components then you will not have a good idea of what could be wrong with the instlation, bushings , lube, torque, etc

I might not have done the installation myself, but I was there at every work done, and I know what was done. I sincerely doubt it, if doing the work would provide me with more knowledge. The people who did all the work did it very professionally, lubing every part that needed to be lubed, even changing the lube nipples on the extended shackles that Rusty send me, with angled one, otherwise they would be useless.

4) If you have not flexed the springs much then they are not "worn in". If you have it as a daily driver and you need to flex them try carrying some heavy cargo for a few days or better yet take it off road to flex it.

Heavy cargo for a few days? How do 150 pounds of tools and another 100 of recovery equipment for eight or nine months sound?

5) not a single one of the photos you posted would I expect the rear to flex any more. You need to flex to the point of a rear tire off the ground to show the total flex in the rear.

I did some inventory check on my pictures, as I remember I had one where the rear tire was just off the ground. Here it is:

Indeed you are right, it looks as if the rear tire is more stuffed inside the wheel well. I'll do some more checking next weekend. Maybe they do stuff after all.

6) do not take a suppliers problems to the board unless you can prove that it is the suppliers problems. No one is perfect, we are all human, Rusty makes some very good products for a very good price and he has supported the xj community for a long time.

Pardon me, but I thought that this is the exact "raison d' etre" for the forums. To discuss problems possibly related to manufacturers, so that one's bad experience does not happen to another one, or vice versa, one's good experience is used as a guideline for others.

In any case, and since you asked for proofs, here are some evidences of what I am talking about:

This picture was taken last Christmas, or two and a half months after the installation of the lift. Check the angle of the shackles and tell me if this is OK with you.

Same period, this is a picture of the front spring bushings touching the right side of their mount. Do you consider that to be acceptable?

And this is a picture of Rusty's leaf pack minus the lower leaf and with the new .75" extended shackles.

As you can see, even with the lower leaf removed, the shackles are not vertical, but I can live with that angle.

Why on earth should I spend money changine shackles and bushings to correct a product's defect? Why on earth couldn't Rusty include the new bushings and extended shackles with his springs? And do you consider an extended shackle as a remedy for a short leaf pack?

Indeed Rusty has some goods products. I've never complained about his front springs. I've never complained about the transfer case drop down kit (nothing much to complain about anyway), but having all these problems with his rear springs is unacceptable. Having to dump his excuse for shocks less than eight months after installation is unacceptable. Having to replace his track bar's TRE 8 months after I installed it (it was dead on arrival, but I can't prove that to you. But I know how much worst the steering of my truck became as soon as his lift was installed. And that the steering only got better after I replaced the TRE with a bushing end and frame mount).

I would also rather not get into other problems I had with him (wrong air filter send when I purchased a Weber, brake pipes which arrived incomplete, etc.). I would have to attach our e-mail exchange here to prove these to you. I can do it if you so want.

Aslo, I am not sure what you mean by "Rusty has supported the XJ community for years". Support is a very special thing and I am not sure what you mean by that.

Newcomers to this community ( or the XJ world if you want) should understand that Rusty's parts are "good for their price". That does not make them good. "Good for the price" is not necessarily the same as "good". People should understand that by buying Rusty's parts they can expect to run into trouble, more so than with the same parts of other vendors. I think it is the duty of the more experienced members, to protect the newbies by just clarifying this.

I hope I gave you the proof that you asked for, if not please let me know, I can provide much more.

Rgds

 

[ChuckD]

Do you still have your orginal OEM leaf springs. Maybe use the main OEM leaf and mix in Rusty's leafs. I know you will not know what spring rate you will have, but you may find the combination perfect for you. The main leaf looks way too short and I think its the culprit to your problem.

 

[SV1CEC]

Do you still have your orginal OEM leaf springs. Maybe use the main OEM leaf and mix in Rusty's leafs. I know you will not know what spring rate you will have, but you may find the combination perfect for you. The main leaf looks way too short and I think its the culprit to your problem.

I am not sure Chuck, I think I left them with my mechanic. He is known to save things for later, but I'll have to check with him on that. So what you are saying is that maybe if I take the top leaf off Rusty's pack and replace it with the OEM original top leaf I might get a better spring? Wouldn't that leaf be too short for the lift I am standing at?

Rgds

 

[ChuckD]

I know many, like Goatman who still uses the OEM main leaf with a mix of add-a-leafs or leaf from MJ's or Dakotas. I remeber my OEM's with add-a-leafs, it flexed like crazy, but you may have to make a traction (ladder bar) to keep the spring wrap down.

 

[vintagespeed]

As others have said, notch the TB mount or raise the TB mount with an ORGS relocation bkt or homefabbed. Looks like you're going to be maxing that stock steering gear when the passenger side droops though.

 

[JnJ]

"6) do not take a suppliers problems to the board unless you can prove that it is the suppliers problems. No one is perfect, we are all human, Rusty makes some very good products for a very good price and he has supported the xj community for a long time."

Ya, this is BS. There is a difference between someone coming on and saying "Brand X Sucks Azz" and someone coming on and looking for help ideas with a problem.

I suggest you loosen up those shackle bolts and really flex that thing up. They'll loosen up for ya over time. Looks like you already learned, you shouldn't run stock shackles with big springs, the shackle bottoms out before the leaf is done flexing, this can lead to premature leaf sag/failure.

 

[SV1CEC]

I agree with you, 100%. Longer shackles are a must for an XJ. One of the reasons I blame Rusty for, is that these improvements that he shipped me for free, after I reported to him the problems, could have been included in the kit. He knew the problems. Why ship something faulty and then wait for some one to mention his problems and then send the solution for free?

In my case especially, when I ordered my kit from him, I called him and explained that since I live in Athens, Greece, it is not easy to go back and forth for such things. I specifically told him, that I do not mind paying some more money initially, to make sure that when the lift is installed everything needed would be here and would be the right thing for the job.

However, at that time, when I ordered my lift, my knowledge was much less than it is now. Had I been selecting a lift today, I would have gone entirely different route for sure.

Unfortunatelly, I didn't listen enough and trusted Rusty's reassurancing words. My mistake.

 

[2xtreme]

I appologize if my previous post was not helpfull. I re-read it and see why you were offended. That was not my intent!!

I got a little upset when people blame problems on people/suppliers/instalation/etc when they really do not have a good idea of what it could be.

To be more constructive, from the pic that I see it looks very simply like your springs are not worked in. I suspect over a period of time and flex they will probably flex more. you could try my weight in the back, or you could try flexing it more often to try to decrease the time it takes to get them to flex better.

As far as shackles go, all lift springs should come with new shackles because they should be designed to work together on the vehicle they intend to go into. However almost none of the lift springs that I am aware of on any truck come with new shackles.

I would also try lubing each of the leaves, and loosening all of the hardware to see how it flexes. Then re-tighten to the appropriate torque for each bolt (with the car on the ground).

I hope that helps, sorry if my last post was offensive and un-constructive.

Michael

 

[vintagespeed]

......To be more constructive, from the pic that I see it looks very simply like your springs are not worked in. I suspect over a period of time and flex they will probably flex more. you could try my weight in the back, or you could try flexing it more often to try to decrease the time it takes to get them to flex better........

I dont agree at all, sure over time the springs may loose some of their rate and sag, Rusty's springs are known for that, but that doesn't mean that they'll flex better. A properly designed and assembled spring pack will work correctly straight out of "the box" as in the pic I posted of my Nationals from ORGS. These flexed to the bumpstops right after being installed and I didn't have to lube them. I did run them with Revolvers and now with a straight 1.5" lift shackle which doesn't sit as flat as the revolvers did. I dont think there's much you can do to get them to flex better, they're simply not correctly matched to your XJ. Either rate wise, or length wise.

 

[SV1CEC]

I appologize if my previous post was not helpfull. I re-read it and see why you were offended. That was not my intent!!

I got a little upset when people blame problems on people/suppliers/instalation/etc when they really do not have a good idea of what it could be.

Apologies accepted. As you saw, I was not blaming someone without proofs and without knowing what I was talking about.

To be more constructive, from the pic that I see it looks very simply like your springs are not worked in. I suspect over a period of time and flex they will probably flex more. you could try my weight in the back, or you could try flexing it more often to try to decrease the time it takes to get them to flex better.

As I said, I am already carrying weight in the back, since day one, and I ain't going to remove it. This is an old truck, so tools are a mandatory item, even during daily drives (what if something breaks down?). As for flexing it more, I hope that during summer, I'll get more chances to put it through its paces, maybe you are right and it will help.

As far as shackles go, all lift springs should come with new shackles because they should be designed to work together on the vehicle they intend to go into. However almost none of the lift springs that I am aware of on any truck come with new shackles.

If I am not mistaken, Rubicon's lift come with new shackles. In reality, I would prefer if a lift kit had lower lift springs and gained the final lift height by a taller shackle. This would give shofter spring rate, while the longer shackle would help in the flex dept.

I would also try lubing each of the leaves, and loosening all of the hardware to see how it flexes. Then re-tighten to the appropriate torque for each bolt (with the car on the ground).

Maybe the fact that at least two of the friction pads in each spring have broken (before even getting it off-road) plays a role. Rusty has supposedly send me some new ones, together with some nuts for my upper adjustable control arms and four Bilsteins, unfortunatelly that package never made it to me.

I hope that helps, sorry if my last post was offensive and un-constructive.

Michael

Understanding our mistakes shows honnesty, we are all, only humans, so ... error-prones. We are all here to learn and I have to thank all of you who spend time answering my questions.

Thank You Gentlemen

 

[vintagespeed]

In reality, I would prefer if a lift kit had lower lift springs and gained the final lift height by a taller shackle. This would give shofter spring rate, while the longer shackle would help in the flex dept.

Alot of the lift height gained in lifted leafs is in the height of the stack at the spring perch and the thickness of each leaf, this combined with the arch of the leafs will give you the final lift height. Therefore, a soft spring rate with multiple leafs can give you better ride than a severely arched and stiffly rated spring pack.

 

[bbaker80]

I noticed something a while back that might relate to your problem. If you look closley at your pic of the shackle, you will see the bumper bracket bolts sticking through into the box that the shackle mounts in. As you compress the spring, the shackle moves back, directly into one of the lower bolts. Call it a design flaw in the shackle if you want, but you either need to notch the shackle to clear the bolt, or whack the bolt off with a grinder or sawzall. As for the track bar, you're fine just cutting a little out of the bracket to allow more flex. Are you running a HD track bar mount or just an upgraded track bar? You might want to consider moving the passenger side mount further twoard the center of the vehicle as well, if you don't want to grind anything.