PLEASE HELP!! Hard/No Start - NEED EXPERT ADVICE!!

[96XJSport4x4]

Interesting info for you guys....

Borrowed a code reader and tried to pull codes...no stored codes.

So, for the heck of it, I did the "ignition on-off 3 times" thing. I got 12, 42, and 55. 12 is completely understandable...disconnected battery a lot lately. 55 is obvious. Leaves us with 42....


An open or shorted condition detected in the auto shutdown relay circuit.

An open condition detected in the ASD relay output circuit.

An open or shorted condition detected in the fuel pump relay control circuit.

An open circuit between PCM and fuel gauge sending unit.

Circuit shorted to voltage between PCM and fuel gauge sending unit.

No movement of fuel level sender detected.


I'm going to do some research but....Any thoughts???

 

[gradon]

Well you did jump the fuel pump relay. .

 

[96XJSport4x4]

Well you did jump the fuel pump relay. .

Fantastic point!! But I have reset the codes (disconected battery) many times since jumping the fuel relay.

In fact, I went out just now and reset the codes by disconnecting the battery, then without starting it again I checked the codes. Same...12, 42, and 55.

Then I started it and it started and ran fine....:dunno:

I will further mention that I've never had fuel gauge issues, at least not yet....

 

[78/xj88]

:yelclap:

 

[Ecomike]

Do you have an electrical drawing of the Engine control system? Haynes shows the Ballast resistor in between the fuel pump relay and ballast resistor relay and the Fuel tank gauge and the Fuel gauge and the PCM (ECU). It is on the front passenger fender wall on the older models, rectangular white ceramic block with a some wires attached.

The leaking injector could be adding to the diagnostic problems.

ICM is directly under the HV coil, the HV coil is mounted to the ICM.

The pick up in the distributor can be dead, and it will still start, just takes a few more seconds.

Could your fuel pump relay bypass be p*ssing off the PCM somehow, or overheating the ballast resistor????

There is also an auto shut down relay tied in with the PCM and the Fuel pump relay!!!!

Hey man, thanks for the reply! The coil is a BWD from Advance Auto. I don't necessarily trust "brand new" parts, but for the new one to die when heat soaked and work fine any other time would be too much of a coincidence, I think.

I would definitely agree with you that I could easily have a leaking injector. Based on age and mileage, I would almost assume 1 or more do. I just don't think that's what's causing this issue, since I am not getting spark when heat soaked. You may be thinking of the injector 3 issue on the 97-01's, which I read quite a bit about. Only thing is, my XJ hasn't always done this.

As far as FP relay, I have jumped it and still have the issue. Do I have a ballast resistor on my 96? If so, where is it and how do I test?

Also, where is the ICM?? Is that within the distributor?

I had someone on that other thread (I mentioned above) mention the pickup in the distributor (CAS??). I have also thought it could be a CKS.

Bottom line is I only have the problem after a nice heat soak and if I shoot some starter fluid in the TB, it starts and runs fine after a little stumbling. Makes you think "fuel", right? But I've checked and I don't get spark when I have the no start....

And to top it all off, now I've got a really bad leaking axle seal spraying gear oil all over my brand new front pad and rotor...when will it all end!! :bawl:

 

[96XJSport4x4]

Do you have an electrical drawing of the Engine control system? Haynes shows the Ballast resistor in between the fuel pump relay and ballast resistor relay and the Fuel tank gauge and the Fuel gauge and the PCM (ECU). It is on the front passenger fender wall on the older models, rectangular white ceramic block with a some wires attached.

The leaking injector could be adding to the diagnostic problems.

ICM is directly under the HV coil, the HV coil is mounted to the ICM.

The pick up in the distributor can be dead, and it will still start, just takes a few more seconds.

Could your fuel pump relay bypass be p*ssing off the PCM somehow, or overheating the ballast resistor????

There is also an auto shut down relay tied in with the PCM and the Fuel pump relay!!!!

I don't think my 96 has a ballast resistor. I have never seen a white ceramic box anywhere under the hood or anywhere else for that matter.

I only bypassed the FP relay a couple of times a week or 2 ago, before I noticed I had no spark during my no start issues. And again, I have cleared my codes many times since then, yet I am still getting the 42...

I have several relays...FP, ASD, etc...but could I have a bad relay if I only have my problem during a heat soak?? The relays aren't exactly near the hot engine, like a distributor or CKS....hmmm....:gonnablow

Not sure if you have a picture of the ICM and HV coil, but if you're referring to my ignition coil, than there is nothing that I noticed underneath it.....

 

[Ecomike]

I don't think my 96 has a ballast resistor. I have never seen a white ceramic box anywhere under the hood or anywhere else for that matter.

I only bypassed the FP relay a couple of times a week or 2 ago, before I noticed I had no spark during my no start issues. And again, I have cleared my codes many times since then, yet I am still getting the 42...

I have several relays...FP, ASD, etc...but could I have a bad relay if I only have my problem during a heat soak?? The relays aren't exactly near the hot engine, like a distributor or CKS....hmmm....:gonnablow

Not sure if you have a picture of the ICM and HV coil, but if you're referring to my ignition coil, than there is nothing that I noticed underneath it.....

ICM side view:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...e&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=1&ct=image&cd=2

#42 means the auto shutdown relay is killing power to everything including the ECU/PCM. Find it and replace it, or locate any bad wires related to it. Poor, dirty contatcs can come and go with heat/cold.

 

[96XJSport4x4]

Just an update...Problem still exists!! !!!1

Here is some new info though:

Ran Jeep this morning, got her hot, and let her sit for 20 minutes. Went out and intentionally tried to start it, no start!

Here is what I tried:

1. Unplugged and reconnected CKS (with IGN off), then cranked - No help.

2. Unplugged and reconnected CAS (with IGN off), then cranked - No help.

3. Swapped ASD relay with starter relay, then cranked - No help.

4. Held throttle open for 10 secs with IGN off, then cranked - Wanted to start, but didn't.

5. Then, I pulled codes. I got a 12, 11, 42, and 55 - In that order.


After pulling the code 3 or 4 times, just to be sure, and playing w/relays, etc., the hood had been open for about 5-7 minutes.

After pulling the codes, I cranked, and she fired up. (I'm sure the open hood for several minutes allowed some cool down time.)

Also notable: No CEL or OBDII codes to be found. :huh:

Now, I was told that getting an 11 would mean the CAS, or pickup in the distributor. Is it possible for anything else (maybe CKS) to cause my same issues or throw the same code?

I just don't want to start throwing money at perfectly good sensors....love to just narrow this thing down and CLOSE THIS THREAD!!! arty:

 

[Ecomike]

#11 is no CKP (CPS) signal. So something is killing the CKP (Crankshaft Pos. Sensor) signal during the heat soak. Don't know if the auto shut down relay kills the CKP sensor input to the ECU, if it does you are back to the ASD killing everything for some bizar reason. Wiring Diag. shows the ASD cutting the +12 V to the fuel injectors!!!!! The ECU/PCM completes the FI circuit by grounding the fuel injector to make it fire.

This is curious, for 1998 and newer modles $42 has 3 listings in the Haynes manual, one is the same as the older models, two is the fuel pump relay circuit, third is the fuel level sending unit having problems. Very odd.

 

[96XJSport4x4]

#11 is no CKP (CPS) signal. So something is killing the CKP (Crankshaft Pos. Sensor) signal during the heat soak. Don't know if the auto shut down relay kills the CKP sensor input to the ECU, if it does you are back to the ASD killing everything for some bizar reason. Wiring Diag. shows the ASD cutting the +12 V to the fuel injectors!!!!! The ECU/PCM completes the FI circuit by grounding the fuel injector to make it fire.

This is curious, for 1998 and newer modles $42 has 3 listings in the Haynes manual, one is the same as the older models, two is the fuel pump relay circuit, third is the fuel level sending unit having problems. Very odd.

I agree with this whole thing being odd. It just doesn't easily fit into any category! :sure:

I think my 11 leads me to either a CKS (Crankshaft) or CAS (Camshaft) sensor. Either could easily be affected by heat and, although I haven't heard of a CKS doing this exactly, we all can agree people have seen crazy things out of them....

I can only think that the 42 is related to one of the bad sensors. I have NO fuel gauge issues, period.

Stupid Haynes manual only shows 1998 and newer codes! The Haynes for the XJ/MJs are terrible...I need an FSM!! :helpme:

 

[96XJSport4x4]

Update:

Haven't been driving the XJ much...between the axle seal and this issue, it hasn't seen much use.

I haven't had an opportunity to test voltage on either the CAS or CKS, but I dropped by the dealership today and ordered BOTH. The parts guy said I could return 1 or both if they aren't the problem. Plus, I got them for fairly close to aftermarket price...no reason to chance any more issues with an aftermarket part.

So I think my plan is to toss the CAS in it first, since it's WAY easier to get to. See if problem goes away. If not, I'll at least try to test the voltage on the CKS before going through the work to change it. I guess we'll see which one is my trouble maker...

FWIW, I have heard that for every 10 CKS's a shop replaces, they only replace 1 CAS.....


Doing research, I found this: http://www.obd-codes.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=3931

"I'd go with the crank sensor as well at this point, had 100's of them that would test fine with a resistance reading but once they were up to temperature they would stop generating a clean enough signal to start!
Had lots of issues with aftermarket brand sensors as well so I'd recommend a Chrysler Part. Just because the sensor circuit is complete doesn't mean the pcm will recognize it. Had a truck that would quit starting as soon as it hit 195 Degree coolant temperature then when cooled off would start again. Tricking the pcm by disconnecting the coolant sensor didn't fool it either because it was exhaust temp of the manifold that was heating it up not coolant. It never genearted a code and always had the proper resistance through it when it was checked but
wiggling the connector to it when it was running would make the engine stall. Some of the 4.0 ltrs did require an updated ignition coil for problems similar to yours but I don't know what you're using for parts so I can't be sure. Like B. Cash said be sure the wiring from the coil to the distributor and the rest of the secondary ign components are of good quality as well. I've changed alot of the crank sensors here at the dealer though so if I was going to guess that be my first
good luck and keep me postted
Jeff"

 

[96XJSport4x4]

Picked up the my Mopar parts today...

Threw the new CAS in this afternoon...no help. Same issue when heat-soaked.

Guess I'll throw the CKS in tomorrow and see what we have....

 

[96XJSport4x4]

Well, ladies and gentlemen, I think we have a winner! Drum roll please.....















Everyone's favorite PITA problem....... :doh: :smootch:














Crank Position Sensor!!! :cheers:



So there you have it. Tossed the CAS in, didn't make a bit of difference.

Swapped the CKS, which wasn't as bad as I thought it would be after reading others experience. I used a bunch of 1/4" wobble extensions, maybe 18" worth (no U-Joint) and really didn't have too much trouble. Just stayed calm and didn't rush it, and was done in maybe 30-45 mins...I mean, that was taking my sweet time.

Jeep now starts within 2-3 seconds every time. Hot or cold. Doesn't matter. I have tried to replicate my heat-soak condition many times and have had ZERO issues.

I truly hope this RIDICULOUSLY LONG thread helps someone in the future. My problem looked like so many different things...Fuel for one. I could have replaced a fuel pump and injectors, (at $400-$500) and it wouldn't have helped one bit. It looked like a coil...which, for all we know, the cracked one I pulled out still works great! (Actually, may save it as a spare!). So all in all, it cost me $66 for the CKS, $10 for a fuel filter, $30 for a coil, $20 for a new cap and rotor (which I needed badly anyway) and $18 for plugs (bought Champ Plats...won't do it again :brickwall). So for around a hundred bucks, not including the maintenance stuff I needed anyway, we're as good as gold. I could have thrown thousands at it, but thanks to some great people, I spent a $100.

A big thanks to all who contributed and helped...Even bigger thanks to Ecomike and all the people who stuck with the thread to try to help out. You guys are the best!! :cheers2:

Interesting note: While my code 11 is gone, I still get a 42 (ASD)....but have no ill-effects whatsoever, that I can tell....anyone?? Maybe I'll start a new thread if I don't figure it out in the next couple days/weeks....