One locker, front or rear first?

[sleeperjeeper]

The reason you put a selectable out back is that when your in 2wd your front locker is virtually invisable...that is at least for a street driven rig...

How invisible is it if you don't have front disconnect? I can put it in 2wd, but that only disengages the driveshaft not the axles.

I would ideally like to be locked front and rear, but am starting with the rear. I heard it is fine on the road as long as you let off the gas going into a turn in order to disengage the locker.

 

[Daedalus454]

How invisible is it if you don't have front disconnect? I can put it in 2wd, but that only disengages the driveshaft not the axles

An auto locker like an Aussie or Detroit only locks the axles together when there is torque being applied through the driveshaft. Other than a soft clicking as the axles differentiates, there is absolutely no effect on 2wd handling.

But I guess it doesn't really matter. My locker was one of the best purchases I've made for my XJ, it was a night and day difference over open/open. If I had it to do again I would do the exact same thing: D30 Aussie, but that's just my personal preference. Make up your own mind and lock one of them, you won't regret it.

 

[jeepme]

I have an aussie in front and ARB in the rear and rarely have to use the ARB. The front pulls through everytime, and with the rear open, snow/ice roads are no problem at all.

 

[Goatman]

Goatman: Could you explain why its becomin preferred to lock the front first and do a selectable out back? Generally, you've been one of the people on here who's tech knowledge I really respect. So I'm curious as I've always thought the opposite.

One reason is that it turns better. Folks have always assumed that it will turn better with the front unlocked, but actually it turns sharper with the rear unlocked. When the rear is spooled (selectable locker locked) it pushes the front, while when the front is spooled it simply pulls itself around. Believe me, I tried it both ways, and it wasn't my idea, I heard it from a competitor, and the rig definitely turns better with the front spooled and the rear open. The rear just follows the front around and doesn't push.

As far as crawling, it also works better with the front locked rather than unlocked. A front tire will push up against a rock or ledge when open, and many times the front will need to be locked, but when the front is locked all the time it always climbs nicely without pushing or binding. The unlocked rear just follows along, even over really big rocks and ledges.

This is all for trail, my experience is in my buggy that doesn't go on the street. However, since a front auto locker is invisible in 2wd, and a rear selectable locker handles nicer when open than an auto locker on the road, I would seriously consider an auto locker for the front and a selectable for the rear for a street driven rig......opposite of past common practice.

 

[OLAK]

Front makes more difference off road than rear in my experience

 

[wjp]

I locked the rear first. 8.25 rear with a no-slip. It works great and is quiet. In the rear it is working for you all the time 2wd or 4wd.

Jim

 

[4LowandGo]

Goatman makes some good points. I have dual Detroits and 4.56's and it actually drives fine on the street. I thought that I would run into some problems in 4wd while turning, but it's not too bad. Offroad traction is amazing and steering is fine on my Dana 44/8.8 combo. If I only had the cash for one of the axles to be locked I'd start with the front, but it's only my opinion.

 

[vetteboy]

One reason is that it turns better. Folks have always assumed that it will turn better with the front unlocked, but actually it turns sharper with the rear unlocked. When the rear is spooled (selectable locker locked) it pushes the front, while when the front is spooled it simply pulls itself around. Believe me, I tried it both ways, and it wasn't my idea, I heard it from a competitor, and the rig definitely turns better with the front spooled and the rear open. The rear just follows the front around and doesn't push.

As far as crawling, it also works better with the front locked rather than unlocked. A front tire will push up against a rock or ledge when open, and many times the front will need to be locked, but when the front is locked all the time it always climbs nicely without pushing or binding. The unlocked rear just follows along, even over really big rocks and ledges.

This is all for trail, my experience is in my buggy that doesn't go on the street. However, since a front auto locker is invisible in 2wd, and a rear selectable locker handles nicer when open than an auto locker on the road, I would seriously consider an auto locker for the front and a selectable for the rear for a street driven rig......opposite of past common practice.

Well said, Richard...that pretty much sums it up. I heard the same thing from Dustin Webster when they were out here at Rausch Creek for that comp over the summer...he was watching us fool around on the comp course and suggested I try doing some stuff in front-wheel only (rear is a Detroit in mine). I was amazed at how much more agile and sharp the rig felt without having the rear pushing all the time.

On a stock or mild XJ that sees mixed street and trail use, here's how I look at it. Putting it in the front will make the greatest difference offroad, but also makes it more likely to break D30 parts and can be a handful in the snow in 4WD. Putting it in the rear won't help as much, but it's a more traditional street driving experience and if you have a decent (not D35) rear axle it's pretty safe as far as breakage goes.

I did a rear one first when I was running a D30/D44 on 33's. It definitely helped, but the difference when I put a front locker in was huge.

 

[Darky]

One reason is that it turns better. Folks have always assumed that it will turn better with the front unlocked, but actually it turns sharper with the rear unlocked. When the rear is spooled (selectable locker locked) it pushes the front, while when the front is spooled it simply pulls itself around. Believe me, I tried it both ways, and it wasn't my idea, I heard it from a competitor, and the rig definitely turns better with the front spooled and the rear open. The rear just follows the front around and doesn't push.

As far as crawling, it also works better with the front locked rather than unlocked. A front tire will push up against a rock or ledge when open, and many times the front will need to be locked, but when the front is locked all the time it always climbs nicely without pushing or binding. The unlocked rear just follows along, even over really big rocks and ledges.

This is all for trail, my experience is in my buggy that doesn't go on the street. However, since a front auto locker is invisible in 2wd, and a rear selectable locker handles nicer when open than an auto locker on the road, I would seriously consider an auto locker for the front and a selectable for the rear for a street driven rig......opposite of past common practice.

Makes sense. And yes, it is completely contrary to traditional (mine) knowledge. I may have to look into it for the future. Especially if I end up swapping axles somewhere down the road.

 

[bandit455]

will the road manners still be fine if you spooled the front

it wouldnt click like a e-z locker would so i wouldnt thinks so

 

[JeepinCoastie]

i locked the front .... the reason i did is i realized most of the time while getting caught in mud puddles is was on the way out ... with that my front tires usually has a better bite ... so i locked up the front to pull me out ... but when i was @ RC like said before climbing some hills i would have liked it if the rear was locked but am still happy (with one locker) with the front locked

 

[Goatman]

will the road manners still be fine if you spooled the front

it wouldnt click like a e-z locker would so i wouldnt thinks so

Anything spooled on the street is far from ideal, especially the front. You can get away with a spool in the rear, it will handle fine just scrub the tires and accelerate tire wear, but a spool in the front will put a ton of stress on the axles and axle u-joints and who knows how it will handle......I don't know anyone who has done it. No problem spooling the front on a trail rig, but I don't think it should ever be done on a street driven rig.

 

[red_01_xj]

will the road manners still be fine if you spooled the front

it wouldnt click like a e-z locker would so i wouldnt thinks so

you dont want to put a spool in the front it will not allow the shafts to turn at different speeds

 

[Sierra Drifter]

Hi,

I am going to be purchasing my first lock, probly a no-slip, and I have read in various threads of people running with front only and rear only. Which is preferable? I have a non-disconnect dana 30 in the front and an 8.25 in the back. Thanks.

There are many things to consider when making this decision.
Goatman's experiences in his buggy do not necessarily apply to your situation.

1. On high traction surfaces like rocks, a front locker places a great amount of stress on ujoints, shafts, and steering. If you're in the rocks with 33" or larger tires, locked with the wheels turned sharply you stand a very good chance of breaking an axle ujoint in your D30. Remember when turning the outside tire must turn faster than the inside tire. On low traction surfaces like sand, mud, soft dirt etc. this is not a problem for the inside tire to spin a little allowing the outside tire to travel further.

2. Your rear 8.25 has larger shafts and a stiffer housing and as such is better able to stand up to the added stress of a locker. Not to mention that rear axles obviously do not have u-joints to bind-up and break.

3. Yes a locked front will do much better at climbing a ledge. But if you approach the ledge at slight angle (wheeling 101) and let each tire climb seperately you will be fine. What percentage of your wheeling is climbing ledges?

4. Weight transfer when climbing anything will unweight the front tires and there will be much less traction available in front and often with both front tires spinning the front end will tend to slide off to the side.
If only one front tire is spinning then the other tire will help hold the front end from sliding. A rear locker will always outperform a front locker when climbing.

Goatman is runing a well built Tera CRD Dana 60 front axle, you really can't compare that to your stock Dana 30.

I run ARB selectable lockers front and rear, I run with the rear locked, and only engage the front when needed. This works fine for me. Also, when I do engage the front locker my turning radius increases a lot. I can turn sharper and easier with the front unlocked.
To each his own.

 

[bandit455]

could i spool it and then do warn disconnects

i know that htat wont be cheap but would it be worth it?

 

[red_01_xj]

could i spool it and then do warn disconnects

i know that htat wont be cheap but would it be worth it?

you would still have problems turning it on the trail...as the automatic locker will unlock to allow turning

 

[LiamN]

Hi,

I am going to be purchasing my first lock, probly a no-slip, and I have read in various threads of people running with front only and rear only. Which is preferable? I have a non-disconnect dana 30 in the front and an 8.25 in the back. Thanks.

Personally, i would say lock the front. You will save your self fuel, still have a easily driveable truck, and depending on what type of terrain you have near you, a locker on the front may be necesary before a locker on the rear. For the NE US i've found lockers on the front make life much better.

EDIT:
I wanted to clarify that breifly: In the NE, we don't have the kind of stuff they have further out west; that is, we have more dirt and mud, and fewer rocks, especially large rocks. we are lucky enough to get rocks sharp enough to cut your side walls in pieces.

 

[bandit455]

k

thanks

 

[Goatman]

There are many things to consider when making this decision.
Goatman's experiences in his buggy do not necessarily apply to your situation.

Yep, many things, which is why we all share our experinces and viewpoints so folks can make an educated decision. Since you brought my name into your reply, I'll go ahead and respond to your comments........which have some validity, just not exactly what I think applies.

1. On high traction surfaces like rocks, a front locker places a great amount of stress on ujoints, shafts, and steering. If you're in the rocks with 33" or larger tires, locked with the wheels turned sharply you stand a very good chance of breaking an axle ujoint in your D30. Remember when turning the outside tire must turn faster than the inside tire. On low traction surfaces like sand, mud, soft dirt etc. this is not a problem for the inside tire to spin a little allowing the outside tire to travel further.

I understand your logic here, but it's highly overstated. Many, many thousands of people run lockers in their D30's, and do thousands of turns on hard rock surfaces without breaking any parts. Your point almost seems to be against running a locker in front at all. In reality, the front binding on a turn is when both axles are locked, if the rear is open then it doesn't bind and there is little stress on the front axles......so in this regard your point does not apply to only running a front locker. Additionally, an automatic locker does allow the outside tire to overspin the inside in a turn, which is exactly why it's an automatic locker. This does not happen with locked selectable lockers, which are then spooled.Additionally, I've seen plenty of unlocked front axles break from the one tire spinning and then suddenly finding traction.

3. Yes a locked front will do much better at climbing a ledge. But if you approach the ledge at slight angle (wheeling 101) and let each tire climb seperately you will be fine. What percentage of your wheeling is climbing ledges?

Unfortunately, when the front is unlocked on a ledge, and one tire is put up against the ledge, more often than not the other tire will slip and won't climb. Or, it will push hard trying to turn the steering, and possibly spin the rear around as the one front tire and both rear tires spin. With the front locked, the tire simply climbs the ledge.......as you said, a locked front will climb much better.

4. Weight transfer when climbing anything will unweight the front tires and there will be much less traction available in front and often with both front tires spinning the front end will tend to slide off to the side.
If only one front tire is spinning then the other tire will help hold the front end from sliding. A rear locker will always outperform a front locker when climbing.

Yes, like I had said, a rear locker only will usually out climb a front locker only, if you do a lot of dirt climbs. Just like you said the front can sometimes slide off when both tires are spinning, the rear can do the same on some rocks and ledges. I've found that many times a rig will hold a line better when both rear tires are not spinning, and it will hold a line better when both front tires are pulling. Niether way is best all the time, but if I had the choice of running only one, based on my experince, I would only run the front. In Utah last year we ran a very steep, narrow trail called Chainsaw, with a bunch of big climbs and ledges. My rear locker wasn't working, so I ran the whole trail open in the rear.

Goatman is runing a well built Tera CRD Dana 60 front axle, you really can't compare that to your stock Dana 30.

Certainly, as far as strength goes. I assume, however, that we will all run trails that are within the limits of our equipment, and as far as traction goes, the tires have no idea what parts are turning them. Besides, this is also a discussion on the overall subject, not just a response to the original poster, so everyone's experience is valid in the discussion.

I run ARB selectable lockers front and rear, I run with the rear locked, and only engage the front when needed. This works fine for me. Also, when I do engage the front locker my turning radius increases a lot. I can turn sharper and easier with the front unlocked.
To each his own.

Yes, to each his own. Try it the other way and then report back what you find. The whole concept of running a selectable front locker to be able to turn better is being proven incorrect........even though that has been the way folks have been doing it for a very long time. We've also had this discussion regarding front Detroits vs selectable lockers like ARB's. The guys have run the ARB's so they can turn better, yet on a tight obstacle when it really matters they need to keep the front locked. In that scenario, the front Detroit will turn better than the locked ARB, since the ARB is now spooled and the Detroit will allow some differentiation between the two front tires. I've talked to guys who have run it both ways, had a front ARB and now have a front Detroit, and they say that the Detroit turns sharper.

Anyway, good discussions, with good info. Let the reader make their own analysis.

 

[Darky]

Yep, many things, which is why we all share our experinces and viewpoints so folks can make an educated decision. Since you brought my name into your reply, I'll go ahead and respond to your comments........which have some validity, just not exactly what I think applies.



I understand your logic here, but it's highly overstated. Many, many thousands of people run lockers in their D30's, and do thousands of turns on hard rock surfaces without breaking any parts. Your point almost seems to be against running a locker in front at all. In reality, the front binding on a turn is when both axles are locked, if the rear is open then it doesn't bind and there is little stress on the front axles......so in this regard your point does not apply to only running a front locker. Additionally, an automatic locker does allow the outside tire to overspin the inside in a turn, which is exactly why it's an automatic locker. This does not happen with locked selectable lockers, which are then spooled.Additionally, I've seen plenty of unlocked front axles break from the one tire spinning and then suddenly finding traction.




Unfortunately, when the front is unlocked on a ledge, and one tire is put up against the ledge, more often than not the other tire will slip and won't climb. Or, it will push hard trying to turn the steering, and possibly spin the rear around as the one front tire and both rear tires spin. With the front locked, the tire simply climbs the ledge.......as you said, a locked front will climb much better.



Yes, like I had said, a rear locker only will usually out climb a front locker only, if you do a lot of dirt climbs. Just like you said the front can sometimes slide off when both tires are spinning, the rear can do the same on some rocks and ledges. I've found that many times a rig will hold a line better when both rear tires are not spinning, and it will hold a line better when both front tires are pulling. Niether way is best all the time, but if I had the choice of running only one, based on my experince, I would only run the front. In Utah last year we ran a very steep, narrow trail called Chainsaw, with a bunch of big climbs and ledges. My rear locker wasn't working, so I ran the whole trail open in the rear.



Certainly, as far as strength goes. I assume, however, that we will all run trails that are within the limits of our equipment, and as far as traction goes, the tires have no idea what parts are turning them. Besides, this is also a discussion on the overall subject, not just a response to the original poster, so everyone's experience is valid in the discussion.




Yes, to each his own. Try it the other way and then report back what you find. The whole concept of running a selectable front locker to be able to turn better is being proven incorrect........even though that has been the way folks have been doing it for a very long time. We've also had this discussion regarding front Detroits vs selectable lockers like ARB's. The guys have run the ARB's so they can turn better, yet on a tight obstacle when it really matters they need to keep the front locked. In that scenario, the front Detroit will turn better than the locked ARB, since the ARB is now spooled and the Detroit will allow some differentiation between the two front tires. I've talked to guys who have run it both ways, had a front ARB and now have a front Detroit, and they say that the Detroit turns sharper.

Anyway, good discussions, with good info. Let the reader make their own analysis.

See, that's why I maintain a lot of respect for this guy...he can point where a person may be misguided or where his experience shows a different side, without it sounding like he's calling you a moron.