Military Hummers Don't Make The Cut

[DrMoab]

God...I could smell the Testosterone before I even opened this thread!

 

[Gil BullyKatz]

God...I could smell the Testosterone before I even opened this thread!

This make you feel better?

You want testosterone?

Occasionally...

There's a few hot looking chicks at the Knob Creek shoot...

 

[5-90]

A little off topic but speaking of "sacrifice".
The History Channel has been showing a lot of WWII shows lately. D day(and X day) type stuff, lots of shows on the different campaigns in the Pacific and Europe. Talk about sacrifice, that was it. I had no idea how many people lost their lives in some of those battles and I thought I was up on World history.
Rhetorical questions but...
What is "freedom" worth?
Todays' people from the USA, would they be willing to fight for it?

No - and not just because of "false entitlement." Why fight to keep something you don't understand?

First Amendment - many school-age kids to-day think that the media (and, by extension, the "people") have a God-given "Right to know." No such animal - while the media should not be muzzled as a matter of course, there are things that the people do not actually need to know - usually things that should be kept out of public knowledge to prevent our boys from getting killed. One should not advertise a "sneak attack" on CNN in advance - no matter how short the lead time.

Second Amendment - apparently, "sporting purposes" does apply, and has always applied. I'll have to find a semanticist to figure this one out - it's certainly not in any copy that I've read. Oh - and the "militia" and the "national guard" are NOT RPT NOT the same animal at all - ref 10USC311. Like it or not, bub; you're probably a militia element, and able to be "activated" (in this case, "formalised") for purposes of home defence. The militia, as defined by law, is all able-bodied males from ages 18 to 45. I just love springing that one on freshmen... Want to see how long we've been chipping away at this one? Reference NFA1934 and GCA1968, various "Crime Bills," and start with the defining case (I believe it was United States v. Miller back in '34. The United States Attorney lied through his teeth, and the NFA stood.)

Third Amendment - I don't think it will be long before this one falls apart in the name of "Homeland Security." I really don't.

Fourth Amendment - Already partly suspended in the name of "Homeland Security" and various counterterror initiatives (beginning in earnest with the passage of the PATRIOT Act.)

Fifth Amendment - Partially suspended under the PATRIOT Act as well - and for the purposes of counterterror - "Guilty until proven Innocent" or even "Guilty until proven so" are very nearly a reality.

Sixth Amendment - Nearly gone. Anyone who's been on the wrong end of an "Anonymous Complaint" can see this one (reference my recent adventures iwth Code Enforcement and a PITA neighbour. I try not to get nasy here, but sometimes ya just gotta.)

Seventh Amendment - I'm waiting to see this one fall apart as well. Did you know that a traffic ticket - an infraction - is still an offence that warrants a jury trial? Ever have one? Hell, "Innocent until" hardly applies in traffic court - you're guilty walking through the door! I don't want to get started on the specious moral justification of most traffic laws right now - I'll have to save that for later, when I've had time to think...

Eighth Amendment - This one is tough. I honestly believe that punishment, by definition, must be by some measures "cruel" and "unusual" - elsewise it won't work. I don't think Club Fed is working now, and no-one's wanted to posit anything else (save me, and no-one listens.) Don't start up with the "detainees" down in Gitmo - until another sovereign nation claims them, they have no legal status under American or international law - we could, by rights, execute every last one of them to-morrow and be accountable to no-one. They are not members of a "belligerent power," and are therefore not subject to protections under the Geneva Conventions, the Hague Accord, or the Law of Land Warfare. These guys aren't the topic of discussion right now anyhow.

Ninth Amendment - We're being nibbled to death by ducks here - no further comment needed.

Tenth Amendment - I'll leave discussion of this one for after everyone here has had some time to do some research - I don't think all present are - at the moment - equipped to carry on an intelligent conversation. This isn't a metal failing of some sort - just a paucity of knowledge. If you want to join in, I'll ask you to do some preparatory research - be creative. I don't care what you dig up, just so it applies to the topic at hand. You shouldn't have any trouble finding anything that actually applies - start with last week's paper.

So, if no-one (in general) understands the freedoms we've been working so damn hard to keep, why are they likely to understand what is necessary to keep them? Good luck - I just don't see it happening until we get education sorted out first...

5-90

 

[Darky]

Another good "M16" idea that didn't work (and Heaven alone knows why!) is the old Colt Light Machine Gun (LMG.) Based upon the original M16, the LMG featured a slightly stronger recoil buffer (about a 500rpm cyclic rate, but better longevity,) a stronger-built top end (with more cooling area than you'd find on the M16,) and the ability to feed from belts or magazines.

Don't know if its the same one but we're currently using a machine gun rather similar to the M-16. Exact same caliber and mags at least. The M249 SAW is our current LMG. The Canadians use a full-auto M-16.

 

[5-90]

The M249 is actually a SAW - Squad Automatic Weapon (the same role the M60 played - badly.)

The M249 is the FN (Farique Nationale - Belgian) Minimi - and not the Colt LMG. if you do some looking up at Google, it shouldn't be too hard to find info on th LMG (I just don't have it to hand right now.)

The M16 is now to it's A4 revision, I believe - but still an M16 at heart. I don't recall the differences between the M16 and M16A1 (apart from furniture changes - the buttstock got most of an extra inch, and they went to the round hanguard rather than the triangular,) but they went from "full-auto" to "three-round burst" for the A2, which became "four-round" for the A3, and the A4 got a four-position selector (SAFE, Semi, 3-round, FULL - as I recall. Subject to confirmation, of course.)

Again, I HAVE NEVER SAID THE M16 WAS A BAD IDEA CLEAR THROUGH! I've just said that it's a tool - and like a tool, it is good at some jobs and not others. There are situations where I'd feel much better toting an M1 or M14 - and damn the weight! If you're worried about carrying a basic load of anything, you don't belong on the ground...

5-90

 

[XTrmXJ]

What about that little plane the Navy drives... the FA-18... bet it'd smoke your Eagle!!!

Its been proven that it cant out do it, but the differnce is in the pilot

 

[XTrmXJ]

Also The F22 is 40 years ahead of technology.. It dam near idles at subsonic speeds in the air, the top speed is still unknown, and classified, weapon payload is almost as good as the A-10 and can carry an asortment of Missiles, If somthing breaks in the air the computers bypass systems and orders the parts via satilite before it even lands, sneaks in, looks like a bird on radar (if it even shows up at all) can out manuver anything (augmentor direction control) and can fly slower than a cesna.. I can step right outside and touch both the f-15 and the F-22, and I watch them take off every single day..


Hell the F-15s that we have here on Base are 1978-1984 and theres still technology on those pigs that we cant even talk about...

 

[Root Moose]

It'll be interesting to see how the Canadians that got sent into Khandahar[sp?] last month do with their new vehicles (NATO spec M-B Galendewagens, IIRC). It's got to be a far cry from the Illtis (POS) they had Kabul. I always liked the Illtis but more as a recreational vehicle.

An aquaintance works at the JTF2 training ground near Ottawa. He says those mofos still prefer the full size 'Merkan PUs to the G-wagens, more room for them when kitted out. May be hearsay, just what I heard.

 

[Weasel]

Um, that's a 30mm, not a 20mm. DEFINITELY a "destructive device!"

No I was thinking the A10 but thought it was a 20mm.

Let's see, based upon my (essentially imperfect) recall...

SEALs mainly get the HK Mk23 as issue, but are (quite properly) trained to work with pretty much anything.

Rangers usually carry whatever they want - and that turns out to be the M1911/1991, Mk23, and some of the bigger Sig-Sauers.

Coast Guard? I know we've got a few Coasties on here - anyone want to sound off? I'd be mildly surprised if they got anything other than the M92 - isn't there still a tie to the Department of the Navy with you guys?

Here's the link to their new releases:
http://sigarms.com/news/index.asp

As for which services us their guns, I really can't say for certain but this is what SIG claims.
http://sigarms.com/products/classicfullsize-models.asp?product_id=231

XM28 is the new M16/M4 variant firing the new 6.xm/m SPC - the upsized 5.56 (and not a bad idea...)

Yeah thats it, multi platform rifle.

So let's see - G36 - isn't that the new H&K that's supposed to be going into the OICW? I've looked into the OICW, and that thing just doesn't do it for me. Gimme a M4 SOPMOD kit any day over that thing - not as many batteries.

Sperate guns.
OICW: http://www.hkpro.com/oicw.htm
G36: http://www.hkpro.com/G36.htm

P550 -

Sig Arms: http://sigarms.com/le-military/special.asp
more info can be found on the www.sigarms.ch site
http://sigarms.com/documentation/index.shtml

 

[5-90]

Thank you! Let's see...

The G36 and SABR recievers look pretty close - more research required here. If I didn't know better, I'd say the SABR was a cut-down G36 (which is possible - H&K usually considers their designs "sucessful" until someone really manages to break one good - and therefore they recycle a lot of design principles from former models. No harm at all there!)

The Sigarms 55x also look vaguely familiar - but I just can't place them. Perhaps it will come to me...

Although I have a small problem with the "Military/Law Enforcement Only" tag - there's no reason a private citizen should not own select-fire firearms, and I have a hard time trusting cops lately with semiautos - SWAT included! I guess I'm just cranky, or maybe I've just seen too much of Kalifornia's Keystone Kops. I remember watching "44 Minutes" (after having read the in-house report) and wondering "Why was this such a problem? Doesn't anyone down there know how to shoot properly?" I guess it's just the fact that I'm a soldier rather than a cop (OK - "special purpose Airman," if you want to be technical) and that I take my skill with a firearm - or anything else that can be used to enhance my own offensive capabilites - far more seriously - but there's no reason at all that "shootout" should have lasted 44 minutes - Hell, it shouldn't have lasted ten! (I'm not dodging with the "enhance capabilities" thing - I've long known what most never learn. "There are no 'dangerous weapons,' only 'dangerous men.' " The idea is to be dangerous as long as you have control of a single extremity - and that is something I've always taken seriously! When you come right down to it, there is no such thing as a "weapon" - it's a tool, and nothing more. My knife is only dangerous if I need it to be - otherwise, I'm perfectly happy using it to eat, strip wires, turn a screw, scrape a sticker I don't want off of my window, or whatever. It's not a weapon, it's a tool. Why does no-one else understand that?)

But I Digress (I think I'll have to make that my new Sig - and recommence the Cthulhu campaign later. I guess it's time to up my medication...)

If the SEALs are using Sigs, I'd be curious as to why. I don't have a problem with issuing people like that tools with which they are comfortable (as well we should!) but I can't remember hearing any rumblings about the Mk23 SOCOM - and there was certainly nothing wrong with it! The shift is curious - I just hope they didn't get stuck with a 9m/m!

Gawd - I just went and looked - it's a damn 9m/m! I don't care if it's half-stainless, has an underbarrel rail, and a threaded muzzle - you just can't polish a turd! Dammit - going to a 9m/m is a mistake, and I don't care what PR sez about it! I've seen enough 9m/m "non-stops" to know that I wouldn't even want one to stop paper - I'll stick to my .45 (and so will my wife, when I finally build her one. At least she's happy with her old .357...)

Oh Moose - NATO-spec G-Wagen? I seem to recall hearing some damn fool - sorry, "brilliant marketer" went and stuck IFS under the GWagen and the 'Mog - I guess NATO-spec has a solid axle up front? Can you shed any light upon that, or are you going to make me look it up for all of us...? ( :laugh3: )

As nearly all of you can by now guess, I never lost an interest in MIL-equipment - I guess I just played with it too much. I guess I'll have to catch up - school's kept me busier than I'd like lately...

5-90

 

[viperbaron]

Nothing is or will ever be built for every geographical terrain in the world, everything requires differt needs

Helicopters. Anytime, anywhere. So long as you don't want to go up to the top of Mt.Everst with someone shooting at you, and it's not too hot.

 

[uvaldetxj]

this post went from hummers to jets to guns to jets...what's next?

 

[GSequoia]

The women of shore leave?

 

[Root Moose]

Oh Moose - NATO-spec G-Wagen? I seem to recall hearing some damn fool - sorry, "brilliant marketer" went and stuck IFS under the GWagen and the 'Mog - I guess NATO-spec has a solid axle up front? Can you shed any light upon that, or are you going to make me look it up for all of us...? ( :laugh3: )

To my knowledge the G-wagen (designed/manufactured by Styr-Puch, not M-B, IIRC) always has been, always will be solid front axle vehicle. They have the M-series for the marketing wankers.

I'm not certain (out of it a long time) but a lot of European militaries still use the G-wagen as originally implemented in the late `70s, early `80s. France builds licensed versions (Peugot), etc.

Don't forget the G-wagen has been in civvy usage since more or less incept, and not the luxo-barge, leather outfitted things we get in North America currently.

They are nice trucks, I'd have one if they were more affordable. When I was looking for a "new" 4x4, I priced them and TLC FJ80s before buying the XJ. Basically, for the same money I got a 10-15 year newer truck by buying the XJ over one of them. No regrets, although the others would have been cool too, especially the 1985 turbo diesel 4 door G-wagen on 35s that was in Manitoba for $18k CDN. If I lived in the SW USA I probably would have gone for it (no rust).

These are pretty cool too:

Duro Light Utility Vehicle

To my knowledge there has never been a civvy version. They are (where?) manufactured under license by GM in London, Ontario. It's funny, almost got a job at the plant doing IT crap about 15 years ago.

 

[Citat3962]

Sorry - couldn't hear you. I had something crazy in my ear...

Speaking as a guy who's spent more time than he'd care to admit to on the ground - air superiority won't win a war. It will help - to be certain - but it won't win. I think it was Woody who said "Nothing says 'we like this place' like dropping a battalion of Rangers on it."

With that in mind, I still say the best plane in the inventory (my opinion, natch!) is the A-10.

That thing is the M1A1 of the skies..
My favorite american aircraft ever built next to the P-51D and the P-38.. (I'd take a Messerschmidt BF-109 too tho )

I know this has little relevance to reality but the game A-10 Tank killer was a family favorite back in the Pentium 2 days.... nothing like cresting over a hill at tree top height and dumping a load of Rockeye cluster bombs and Mavericks to clean out a whole column of tanks in one pass.

I'd trade in a nut to fly one of those for a little low level strafing/bombing runs on some targets.

 

[Root Moose]

That thing is the M1A1 of the skies..
My favorite american aircraft ever built next to the P-51D and the P-38.. (I'd take a Messerschmidt BF-109 too tho )

A-10s are uber cool.

You need to add the Focke Wulfe FW-190 D-9 to your short list.

 

[Citat3962]

A-10s are uber cool.

You need to add the Focke Wulfe FW-190 D-9 to your short list.

Agreed!

The 190 had the perfomance to back up it's excellent armor...

Like the P-47 was supposed to be... except they equipped it with too much armor and not enough giddyup so it ended up a slow easy target.. The 190 was the Best Fighter of the War and I think if it had been in wide use earlier in the war we would have had alot harder time until the P51-d came into common use.

The 109 was light as all hell.. pop rivets tinfoil and popsicle sticks.. something about the profile of that thing screams AAAHHHHH WATCH YOUR 6!!!!

and that canopy would give a claustrophobic a heart attack..

 

[Weasel]

Thank you! Let's see...

The G36 and SABR recievers look pretty close - more research required here. If I didn't know better, I'd say the SABR was a cut-down G36 (which is possible - H&K usually considers their designs "sucessful" until someone really manages to break one good - and therefore they recycle a lot of design principles from former models. No harm at all there!)

Could be I don't really know, except it's suppost to be better then the AR design as it doesn't blow the gas back into the breach? Dunno that much about them.

Israeli Special Forces use them, Swiss Gun.

Yeah so do I and it's one the HK and Sig Semi rifles, but thats due to the current ATF regulations. There are a few that are legal to buy but expensive at 7-10k.

Yes, it's a 9mm, I don't know if they get any of calibers but the .357Sig would be a nice one. Really the Seals and other black ops force get to pick a variety of weapons to use so I don't think one standard weapon is issued to them.

I learned long time ago that mil spec usually means the cheapest way to do something.

 

[5-90]

"MIL-Equipment" was just my way of saying military goodies without resorting to "issue" - I figured it would make sense to more people.

Remember the genesis if military specifications - artillery & ordnance. It's a statistical process. If 10,000 bombs are dropping, and five don't blow, what's the problem?

MIL-equipment/issue/whatever - it's not so much a matter of military specifications as the approach to problem-solving shown in military equipment. They get an awful lot right (to me) for equipment that isn't designed by as many soldiers as you might think - although NATICK is getting involved in a lot more...

5-90

 

[stewie]

Since we are on the subject of arms, let me say I hate the Beretta M9 pistol. I am carying it over here in the middle east (comming home soon) and i realy dont trust it. 9mm ball ammo. come on now. there have been several documented cases with law enforcement stateside that have shot suspects with 9mm hardball and the guy keeps on attatcking and continuing the action that lead the officer to shot. due to NATO regs and such, we have to carry ball ammo over here. the only guys that get to carry hollow points are aircrew so that the round is less likely to puncture the aircraft. something about too massive of an injury caused by hallow points. too bad we cant all just carry arround a bunch of claymores. i would be a lot happier with the old M1911 than i am with the M9

M16. great platform. wished we had the AR10 (308 version of the M16/AR15). same issue as with the 9mil. some people dont even react to being hit. at least thats the word from downrange. the US military needs to stop being little pansies and get some weapons that will get the job done right without requireing 1/2 a mag to do.

stewie
home in Sept