Lifter tick noise, and lifter science

[Ecomike]

Correction, I was talking about the cleaning the outside walls of the lifters and the block wall originally, not the guts of the lifter. I was assuming the guts of the lifter was OK< and not collapsed.

The video later gave us ideas about the need to clean inside as well.

But I have some doubts about whether or not it would work on the inside of the lifters. Additive to the bulk oil, pumped by the oil pump might be the best approach there. You have the flow force to help. But the out wall is another story. It is where I think the rotation stops due to sticky varnish-carbon and there is no high pressure oil there to wash it out?

Re-read EcoMike's 2nd post. He was talking about removing the valve cover, removing the push rods, and spraying PB down the openings to the lifters, then cranking the motor to work it into the lifters, then letting it soak overnight. Then draining the oil. All I'm saying is pour some oil down those same openings to help get the PB out of the lifters, before reinstalling the push rods and the cover. Make sense?

No need to get so excited ... we're just having a little conversation here.

 

[montanaman]

Ok ... sounds good. I'm looking forward to seeing what you work out. You and I started on this forum about the same time. I still remember all the work you did chasing down the Renix gremlins. I don't even *have* a Renix and I enjoyed reading that.

 

[Hypoid]

OLD SCHOOL, CHEAPER ,AND BETTER, POST ANOTHER YOUTUBE BULL AD>

YOU A FUNNAY KID!!!!!!

You say "old school" and act like Chem-Dip is snake oil! I do not consider myself "old school," but I wish I could still buy the Chem-Dip I used to rebuild my first Carburetor. Can you say "Carburetor" without googling it? Can you rebuild a "Carburetor" without googling it?

Again, I am not "old school," but I have benefited from nuggets offered by "engine guys" who take the time to burnish cylinders on new builds, and even take the time to disassemble NEW FROM THE BOX lifters and clean every speck of debris that the manufacturing process left behind. I don't know what you call them, but they call everyone else (including me) a "shade tree" mechanic.

If you want to talk "old school:"
Talk about cooling systems that operated on 7-11 PSI, and could catch fire in an accident.
Talk about "babbitting" the bearings.
Talk about V-8 engines that can run with one cylinder head removed...

 

[Bobbie]

Sorry guys i will shut up now.

 

[Redsnake]

Very educational and good ideas here.... at least to me.

I'm not expert but is the reason one wouldn't just replace the old lifters is that they are 'synced up' (for lack of the proper terms...) w/the cam and push rods? Would new lifters damage the old cam and push rods?

 

[90xj06]

the ford sounds like is misfiring.

 

[dan1977p]

Very educational and good ideas here.... at least to me.

I'm not expert but is the reason one wouldn't just replace the old lifters is that they are 'synced up' (for lack of the proper terms...) w/the cam and push rods? Would new lifters damage the old cam and push rods?

They don't on my harley and some even consider it routine maintenance to replace them every 30k. Those folks are also usually the ones who have done a good bit of performance work and especially a high lift cam that works the lifters harder than stock.

 

[Hypoid]

I'm not expert but is the reason one wouldn't just replace the old lifters is that they are 'synced up' (for lack of the proper terms...) w/the cam and push rods? Would new lifters damage the old cam and push rods?

My understanding is that you can install new lifters on a used cam, but you have to do the break-in procedure.

 

[Ecomike]

Ok ... sounds good. I'm looking forward to seeing what you work out. You and I started on this forum about the same time. I still remember all the work you did chasing down the Renix gremlins. I don't even *have* a Renix and I enjoyed reading that.

I had three great ones, I recall, 2 were solved, the TPS nighmare called the RenX Files (LOL), and the overheating one that no one ever figured out, till I swapped the transmission and found a prior owner had reused a bad donut to seal the exh-manifold flange. It would only leak and blow on the block at high rpms. Three muffler shops missed it during their inspections. And there is a really good one on O2 sensor testing for Renix and HOs.

I do engineering/science forensics for a living and I love to tackle problems no one has ever had or could not figure out, not the "Usual Suspects" LOL, like Keyser Soze. LOL!!!

But I do start out trying the usual suspects. I just love a challenge.

 

[Ecomike]

Very educational and good ideas here.... at least to me.

I'm not expert but is the reason one wouldn't just replace the old lifters is that they are 'synced up' (for lack of the proper terms...) w/the cam and push rods? Would new lifters damage the old cam and push rods?

Well I know that the contact points on my 290,000 mile 4.0 beast on the rockers and the lifters where the push rods meet them and the push rods themselves at are well worn ( I replaced some of the valve stem seals last year), but if it is a running engine, like mine, I see no problem replacing a lifter or rod, etc, and reusing the Cam shaft. I'd be more worried about replacing a cam shaft and reusing the old lifters. The rule is to make sure you put each lifter and push rod and rocker and pivot all in the same place where they were before!!!!!

Hell I resealed CV joint Rubber boot 6 months ago, everyone said would never work LOL. Been driving it ever since, zero grease leak. It got cut by accident changing the ball joints on a Saturn.

The important thing in replacing just one or more lifters (not the Cam) seems to be using an assembly grease on the contact surfaces that is high in ZDDP. Same goes for the push rods and rockers and pivots.

Nickintime has a video where he pulled two noisy lifters on a 4.0, found nothing wrong with them, but had hell getting one out, and even more hell getting it back in. I think his mistake was not cleaning the the block wall, and lubing it, the wall that the lifter runs up and down inside of. He cleaned the lifter, but it did not want to go back in. It still ticked after he did that. That same area I was thinking of targeting with MMO or PB Blaster or similar products, but with out removing the head!!!! Just removing the valve cover.

 

[Ecomike]

Very educational and good ideas here.... at least to me.

I'm not expert but is the reason one wouldn't just replace the old lifters is that they are 'synced up' (for lack of the proper terms...) w/the cam and push rods? Would new lifters damage the old cam and push rods?

If the cam is OK on eye ball inspection, not scored or worse, I say reuse it unless the lobes are too worn. But I would not reuse a badly worn push rod on a new lifter for instance. They are too cheap not to replace.

 

[Ecomike]

My understanding is that you can install new lifters on a used cam, but you have to do the break-in procedure.

Is there anything more to the break in procedure than using a high ZDDP assembly grease and break in oil for about 500 miles?

 

[Ecomike]

the ford sounds like is misfiring.

There was a popular portable air compressor back in the 1980s that had something like 4 cylinders running the engine and four compressing air IIRC.

 

[Ecomike]

Very educational and good ideas here.... at least to me.

I'm not expert but is the reason one wouldn't just replace the old lifters is that they are 'synced up' (for lack of the proper terms...) w/the cam and push rods? Would new lifters damage the old cam and push rods?

AH!!! To actually, finally, answer your question, the 4.0 requires removing the head to be able to remove the lifters and thus my reason for considering a less involved possible fix. And of course, some would only do the cam and lifters at the same time, which is far more costly and more work. So once again, if it is just dirty, why not clean it thread. The trick being how best to clean it. In my case I have had this rig and engine for the last 70,000 miles and it had many issues, but the one thing I have never had to do yet is pull the head on this one. And I have done many long term MMO, treatments that helped, but I am very curious how well this might work.

 

[Hypoid]

Is there anything more to the break in procedure than using a high ZDDP assembly grease and break in oil for about 500 miles?

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2011/04/flat-tappet-camshaft-break-in-procedure/

The article was written for new cam break-in. It explains the need to get the lifter "mated" to the Cam Lobe.

 

[montanaman]

what about adding half a can of Seafoam in the engine and running it for a hundred miles?

 

[Ecomike]

Very interesting, I need to save that one. It also mentions the importance of lifter rotation in the break in!!!!! Lifter rotation is what 5-90 claimed was the problem causing the ticking-sticking 10 years ago. Interesting the break in goes to 3000 rpm for up to 30 minutes!!!! Makes me wonder if just doing that for 30 minutes at 3000 rpm would help old ones.

When I bought the one I am having the issue with, it had a unknown previously undocumented TPS issue andthrottle rod that was bent that kept the rig below 1300 rpm at WOT throttle until it got up to about 45 mph in OD. That had to be real bad for the lifters from what I am learning. Most of us never pushed ours up to and over 3000 rpm for more than 2 minutes..... to free the lifters...Hmm.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2011/04/flat-tappet-camshaft-break-in-procedure/

The article was written for new cam break-in. It explains the need to get the lifter "mated" to the Cam Lobe.

 

[Ecomike]

what about adding half a can of Seafoam in the engine and running it for a hundred miles?

From what I have read many people have done that, and then changed the oil. Depends on how cruded up the engine is, and how much you use.

I fear doing that as I had an old 78 Dodge V-8 engine full of wax build up, that doing that cleaned everything so well it clogged up the oil pump intake screen, filter and killed the oil pump, broke the timing chain a few days later after the oil change. So I have never used aggressive cleaners in volume all at once since then. Never more than a quart and never anything harsher than MMO since then in my case.

 

[Ecomike]

A very good quote from your link:

"Lifter Rotation: Flat tappet cams (both hydraulic end mechanical) have the lobes ground on a slight taper and the lifters appear to sit offset from the lobe centerline.This will induce a rotation of the lifter on the lobe.This rotation draws oil to the mating surface between the lifter and the lobe.

If it is possible to view the pushrods during break-in, they should be spinning as an indication that the lifter is spinning.

If you don’t see a pushrod spinning, immediately stop the engine and find the cause.

Never use old flat tappet lifters on a new cam. On flat tappet cams, the lobes and lifter bottoms mate together. if the lifters are removed from the engine, they must go back on the same lobe from which they were removed.



Crane Cams recommends the use of high quality lifters to prevent premature cam or lifter wear." Hmm

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2011/04/flat-tappet-camshaft-break-in-procedure/

The article was written for new cam break-in. It explains the need to get the lifter "mated" to the Cam Lobe.

This article does not say to never use new lifters on a good but used cam!!!!

 

[Johnnie Walker]

"NorCalChris" ????? Method?

Get the engine up to NOT. Rev and hold engine at 2.5k for a min, and increase 500 rpm same amount of time up to 4.5k
Similar to the Rev the shit out of it method.