Leaf spring sliders for desert use???

[FatCity Ryan]

I would imagine the bearings probably self destructed. After that, the bolts will destroy the mount.

 

[HeavyMetal]

I would imagine the bearings probably self destructed. After that, the bolts will destroy the mount.

I guess I shoulda mentioned these arent a traditional bearing design (physical roller bearings) but they are delrin/UHMW (forgot which).

they have been tested to thousands of cycles in the design in general with good success at some pretty abusive rockcrawling and road going adventures..never seen em operate in the go-fast side of things though

 

[DieselSJ]

I guess I shoulda mentioned these arent a traditional bearing design (physical roller bearings) but they are delrin/UHMW (forgot which).

they have been tested to thousands of cycles in the design in general with good success at some pretty abusive rockcrawling and road going adventures..never seen em operate in the go-fast side of things though

You don't see them in go-fast because they don't work in go-fast.

Rock crawling is not go-fast and has much lower impact stresses on the components. We tried bearings, we tried delrin bushings, we tried all kinds of stuff. Bearings disintegrated. Delrin disintegrated. We even tried a block of Delrin above the spring eye to take some of the load off the bearings/bushings. That helped but it was still high-wear and stuff still wouldn't live through an entire race. Also keep in mind that our application didn't put as much stress on them as what you want to do because of the 4-link - our movement was split between the front and rear mounts, whereas all of your movement will be focused on just the rear. We came to the conclusion that the forces that came from hitting stuff at speed was overloading the bushings/bearings. I wish we would have had something like a GoPro back then because we really wanted to see what happened.

 

[HeavyMetal]

Thanks for the feedback. Appreciated.

 

[9T3XJ]

I ended up abandoning this idea in favor a traditional shackle, mainly just for packaging reasons. I still think that I'd still like to try them though on a light prerunner/DD type application.

DieselSJ is the first I've heard that sliders didn't work for, though I also never found a single desert racer that was running them and now I guess I know why.

Sliders don't hold up. We had them on a racer that had a 4-link - leaf setup with slider at each end and 4-link to hold it all in place. The sliders destructed themselves in testing. We ended up putting a shackle at each end.

I'm curious, did you notice any difference in ride or handling switching between sliders and shackles?

 

[DieselSJ]

I'm curious, did you notice any difference in ride or handling switching between sliders and shackles?

Shackles were quieter. Shackles did seem to work better, but that was more of just a feeling that was coming through the chassis...kinda like a butt dyno.

 

[kidarkitect]

I'm no expert I just play one on tv. I would think the hard mounted system of the slider would cause an increase in "darn thats bumpy syndrome" through the fast stuff. a shackle is going to displace more of that energy if done properly due to two bushings and the "swinging radius" of the shackle allowing the spring end to move up some as well while being compressed/flattened.

 

[srimes]

I'm no expert I just play one on tv. I would think the hard mounted system of the slider would cause an increase in "darn thats bumpy syndrome" through the fast stuff. a shackle is going to displace more of that energy if done properly due to two bushings and the "swinging radius" of the shackle allowing the spring end to move up some as well while being compressed/flattened.

huh?

 

[kidarkitect]

does that not make sense? i dunno, cause the vertical movement of the axle/spring assembly to be transfered completely to a horizontal motion in a go-fast and bumpy situation would mean more energy is absorbed into the unibody/frame at the tail end making it more of a bumpy ride compared to using a shackle.

I'm just thinking of physics class is all... hypothesis not proven fact.

they may provide more stability somehow, i don't know. but they would transfer more energy into the body, because of the singular bushing/bearing thing- which in turn would probably slow you down.

again this was meant more as a hypothesis to be torn down or agreed upon, not fact.

 

[yossarian19]

does that not make sense? i dunno, cause the vertical movement of the axle/spring assembly to be transfered completely to a horizontal motion in a go-fast and bumpy situation would mean more energy is absorbed into the unibody/frame at the tail end making it more of a bumpy ride compared to using a shackle.

I'm just thinking of physics class is all... hypothesis not proven fact.

they may provide more stability somehow, i don't know. but they would transfer more energy into the body, because of the singular bushing/bearing thing- which in turn would probably slow you down.

again this was meant more as a hypothesis to be torn down or agreed upon, not fact.

Sounds correct to me. Hard to quantify but the theory seems correct.
I only ever hear about leaf sliders in hot rod applications AKA low travel suspension intended to plant the ass flat under 400 ft-lbs, not to move around much.

 

[HeavyMetal]

does that not make sense? i dunno, cause the vertical movement of the axle/spring assembly to be transfered completely to a horizontal motion in a go-fast and bumpy situation would mean more energy is absorbed into the unibody/frame at the tail end making it more of a bumpy ride compared to using a shackle.

I'm just thinking of physics class is all... hypothesis not proven fact.

they may provide more stability somehow, i don't know. but they would transfer more energy into the body, because of the singular bushing/bearing thing- which in turn would probably slow you down.

again this was meant more as a hypothesis to be torn down or agreed upon, not fact.

well FWIW, the slider would be on a sloped plane, not flat horizontal.

 

[srimes]

ok, yeah I agree that 2 soft bushing in a shackle would ride softer than 1 hard bushing in a slider. Just like shackle angle affects spring rate, the slope of the slider would too. If the end points are the same shackle vs. slider the effective spring rates should be close throughout the travel as long as the shackle isn't very short. At least that's my guess just thinking about the geometry.

 

[9T3XJ]

well FWIW, the slider would be on a sloped plane, not flat horizontal.

Just curious, have you tried contacting Deaver at all about using sliders with their springs? Seems like with all their experience in springs they might have some ideas about what works and what doesn't.

 

[HeavyMetal]

Just curious, have you tried contacting Deaver at all about using sliders with their springs? Seems like with all their experience in springs they might have some ideas about what works and what doesn't.

Never actually thought to do that, not a bad sugggestion

 

[Mike1331]

horrible high speed idea, i wouldn't even consider...ever. All the physics have been explained so i won't even get into it. abandon ship

 

[HeavyMetal]

horrible high speed idea, i wouldn't even consider...ever. All the physics have been explained so i won't even get into it. abandon ship

"physics" aside, how about some experience?

I guess I just dont see how an angled slider is THAT different from a swinging shackle as far as spring movement to the point where it would be that ill-advised, or at least the way youre making it sound.

 

[XJLI]

I guess I just dont see how an angled slider is THAT different from a swinging shackle as far as spring movement to the point where it would be that ill-advised, or at least the way youre making it sound.

spring movement aside, the force placed on the 'ends' of the slider is a shit load. under compression, you technically have infinite movement of the spring.. that is, until the shackle bottoms out, and if it does, you have a problem bc your tires are definitely inside your jeep. in order to negate that force you need to ensure your bumpstops hit before the slider ends it's travel.. and same goes the other way, max out your limit straps before the slider ends the other way. so thats one piece of the puzzle solved.

BUT- the spring's natural movement is in an arc, which you are limiting with the use of the slider. in a crawling scenario where rapid cycling doesnt occur, this isnt an issue. the physical amount of force simply isnt there. going fast however, the leaf wants to move inside this arc more violently, thus causing a lot of premature wear, and from what dieselSJ has said in his experience, eventual failure of the bushings. i understand the angled slider is putting less stress on the pivot point as opposed to a straight one, but the problem is still there.

can you mimic the arc in a slider? yes of course. but there is still natural movement from side to side within the leaf bushings that will pull on the slider that a shackle can hold up to that the slider (eventually) cannot. and once you get to this step you're trying to re-invent the shackle, so why not just use it?

lastly, i understand the whole point of the slider is to maintain rate throughout the spring's travel, but a quality leaf spring is designed with the shackle in mind.

deavers and a normal old shackle are a tried and true combination. no sense in reinventing the wheel.

my two cents.

btw, when my truck is done this spring, we're racing. bitch.

 

[HeavyMetal]

spring movement aside, the force placed on the 'ends' of the slider is a shit load. under compression, you technically have infinite movement of the spring.. that is, until the shackle bottoms out, and if it does, you have a problem bc your tires are definitely inside your jeep. in order to negate that force you need to ensure your bumpstops hit before the slider ends it's travel.. and same goes the other way, max out your limit straps before the slider ends the other way. so thats one piece of the puzzle solved.

BUT- the spring's natural movement is in an arc, which you are limiting with the use of the slider. in a crawling scenario where rapid cycling doesnt occur, this isnt an issue. the physical amount of force simply isnt there. going fast however, the leaf wants to move inside this arc more violently, thus causing a lot of premature wear, and from what dieselSJ has said in his experience, eventual failure of the bushings. i understand the angled slider is putting less stress on the pivot point as opposed to a straight one, but the problem is still there.

can you mimic the arc in a slider? yes of course. but there is still natural movement from side to side within the leaf bushings that will pull on the slider that a shackle can hold up to that the slider (eventually) cannot. and once you get to this step you're trying to re-invent the shackle, so why not just use it?

lastly, i understand the whole point of the slider is to maintain rate throughout the spring's travel, but a quality leaf spring is designed with the shackle in mind.

deavers and a normal old shackle are a tried and true combination. no sense in reinventing the wheel.

my two cents.

btw, when my truck is done this spring, we're racing. bitch.

ok

 

[Supermanxj]

when my truck is done this spring, we're racing. bitch.

Truck eh. I thought we all drove station wagons. :dunno: lol.

I want in on this race.

 

[CumminsJeep]

btw, when my truck is done this spring, we're racing. bitch.

rut roh! im down to race as well. a little east coast race action