Iraq

[Dirk Pitt]

I got the following info in an e-mail at work and thought I'd share.

I can't testify to the validity of the statements however it claims to be verifiable on the Dept. of Defense website; I'm not checking.






DID YOU KNOW THIS? Did you know that 47 countries have re-established
their embassies in Iraq?
Did you know that the Iraqi government employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?
Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under
rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under construction and 38 new schools
have been built in Iraq?
Did you know that Iraq higher educational structure consists of 20
Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers?
Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in
January 2004 for the re-established Fulbright program?
Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational? They have 5- 100-foot
patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a navel infantry regiment.

Did you know that Iraq Air Force consists of three operation squadrons, 9
reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft which operate day and
night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 bell jet rangers?

Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando
Battalion?
Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained
and equipped police officers?

Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over
3500 new officers each 8 weeks?

Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq?
They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad
stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical
facilities.

Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received
the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?

Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary
school by mid October?

Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and
phone use has gone up 158%?

Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consist of 75 radio
stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?

Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?

Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a
recent televised debate recently?

OF COURSE WE DIDN'T KNOW! WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW? OUR MEDIA WOULDN'T TELL US!

Because a Bush- hating media and Democratic Party would rather see the
world blow up than lose their power. Instead of shouting these
accomplishments from every rooftop, they would rather show photos of what
a few perverted malcontent soldiers have done in prisons in many cases
never disclosing the circumstances surrounding the events. Instead of
showing our love for our country, we get photos of flag burning incidents
at Abu Ghraib and people throwing snowballs at presidential motorcades.

The lack of accentuating the positive in Iraq serves only one purpose.
It undermines the world's perception of the United States and our
soldiers.
I AM ASHAMED OF MY FELLOW AMERICANS WHO WOULD RATHER SEE
TERRORISM SUCCEED THAN A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT.
This is verifiable on the Department of Defense website. Pass it on!

 

[ECKSJAY]

This reminds me, I need to take some Metamucil.

 

[steve01XJ]

Well if all of this is really true, then we should be able to bring our troops home very soon.

But I just have to ask this: Is there really ANY set of circumstances which would EVER justify what was done to the prisoners in the pictures from Abu Ghraib? I would think that acts of this kind go much further to harm our reputation as a respectable nation than anything people who oppose the war and/or the Bush Administration at home have done.

We will reap what we sow.

 

[red91]

We will reap what we sow.

GOOD. That mean Saddam will be raped, toutured, and then thrown LIVE into a plastic shredder.


Sounds fair. Abu....is a bunch of BS. They would have been killed by any of the other surrounding countries in a heartbeat for the same thing.


BOO HOO......

 

[steve01XJ]

Abu....is a bunch of BS. They would have been killed by any of the other surrounding countries in a heartbeat for the same thing.


BOO HOO......

Again - how we conduct ourselves is the best way to draw a contrast between our way of doing things and the way of the thugs we are trying to defeat. Setting a proper example of how a nation of laws should operate is critical to getting the general Iraqi population to buy into what we are trying to achieve. Without their overwhelming support, our mission will fail. And if overwhelming support of the Iraqis is not possible, then I think we wasted 1800 US servicemen's lives on a mission with no hope of success.

 

[ECKSJAY]

Setting a proper example of how a nation of laws should operate is critical to getting the general Iraqi population to buy into what we are trying to achieve.

Wait, you're trying to trick me into believing we had this covered on the homefront BEFORE attempting to spread it to the rest of the world!

I see right through your clever little plan, smart guy. You can't fool me!

 

[red91]

Setting a proper example of how a nation of laws should operate is critical to getting the general Iraqi population to buy into what we are trying to achieve.

if you actually look.....MOST of the IRAQI people are happy. Happier than they were.

If the want instant gratification they need to get the IRAQI EXPRESS CARD.

Don't leave the tent without it !!


PUHLEEZ.....

do us a favor and turn off CNN. (Communist News Network) Ted Turner is NOT your friend. He's is a RATINGS WHORE....along with most of the alphabet channels...

 

[ECKSJAY]

do us a favor and turn off CNN. (Communist News Network) Ted Turner is NOT your friend. He's is a RATINGS WHORE....along with most of the alphabet channels...

GOYIM-hater.

:chef:

 

[red91]

GOYIM-hater.

:chef:

your a GOYIM... I like you. :kissyou: Gil is a GOYIM...I like him. Rev is a GOYIM...I like him. GLENN is a GOYIM...I like him.

should I continue ??


I hate all IDIOTS....its called equal oportunity.

 

[DrMoab]

GOOD. That mean Saddam will be raped, toutured, and then thrown LIVE into a plastic shredder.


Sounds fair. Abu....is a bunch of BS. They would have been killed by any of the other surrounding countries in a heartbeat for the same thing.


BOO HOO......

Might be opening a can of worms here.....Ok I KNOW I am but....

Why is tying a leash to someones neck or making someone get naked and get into a human pyrimid torture?

Sure its not really the best way for our military to act and yes I agree that we should hold ourselfs to a higher standard but ask someone about the human torture chambers in Germany in WW2 sometime...Oh wait you can't because most of them DIDN'T LIVE!

Ask some guy how it feels to have his knee broken with a baseball bat and then have the bone sticking out of the said knee grabbed with pliers and yanked on.

Given the choice....I would much rather have a leash thrown around my neck and have a few pics taken of me.

The fact I find amazing is you hear the word torture used so much in the media and yet I have not seen any evidince of them being beaten or phyisicly harmed in anyway.

 

[8Mud]

Well if all of this is really true, then we should be able to bring our troops home very soon.

But I just have to ask this: Is there really ANY set of circumstances which would EVER justify what was done to the prisoners in the pictures from Abu Ghraib? I would think that acts of this kind go much further to harm our reputation as a respectable nation than anything people who oppose the war and/or the Bush Administration at home have done.

We will reap what we sow.

In short no, those poor suckers, had the bad luck, to have a pervert or 3 for jailers. But to put it in perspective, I´ve had five Sheriffs beat the living hell out of me, for a whole lot less, than being a susupected terrorists, to tell you the truth, I never did figure out, what exactly I did to deserve that. Guy has fifity bullet holes in his Explorer, because he refused to stop, said he was affraid of the police, maybe he has a point. Why the heck, should the Iraquis get better treatment than Americans.
I´d be tempted to view the whole Iraqui thing, as having some benefitial side affects. Sure was an eye opener, for a few countries, that have been exporting there meaness for decades.
Closer to home, the young Turks, used to own the streets around here, old people walking down the sidewalk, had to walk around them into the street and the gutter. Used to hang out in groups and bother people, harass the young ladies and beat the hell out of the young men, usually at 8-10 to one odds.
You could feel them duck when 911 happened and become pretty darned scarce after the Iraqi invasion. Changed a lot of peoples perspectives.
Most of what the iraqi insurgency is doing, is right out of Uncle Ho´s little red book, it´s not thick, read it. I always believed the solution then, was to level there support base and not fight them more than necessary on the ground. I´d figure out where there money (logisitcal support) is coming from and bomb the bank, no matter what country it´s in.
Ask yourself seriously, are most of the Iraqi people better off, under most anybodies stewardship than his. My feeling in many situations, is when you change the status quo, it becomes, beter, worse or about the same. Seriously, ask yourself, could anybody screw up the situation, much worse than Sadam and his bunch did? Him and his party, stumbled through a whole series of catastrophies, lasting decades, most of there own making.
I personnaly was against the war, pretty much all wars on principle, but I sure enough appreciate, what the troops have done for me, on many levels.
Are the benifits wroth the loss of life, who knows. Were the deaths of all the Firefighters, Police, Ambulance and transit authority people, worth trying to help the people in the WTC, who knows, but I for one, sure admire there courage. And get imotional, thinking of there sacrifce.
It really isn´t that complicated, you have one group of people, trying to do the right thing (sometimes screwing up in the process) and a whole bunch of people trying to change the status quo, by doing the wrong thing.
The terrorist philosophy is actually pretty simple, can´t really remember the author, but the gist of it is, if you can destroy something, you control it.

 

[goodburbon]

I'm with the dr on this one. Some people would pay to be in a naked pyramid. the only humiliating thing was the media showing us the pics every 5 minutes.

If american prisoners can be ass raped at will by other prisoners, who in their right minds would think that a naked pyramid was all that bad....

if I were a felon,I would rather be in an iraqi prison now than an american one.

we honestly have to look at what makes sense. trying to play nice with these guys does not make sense, it makes them think we are weak. it makes them think that our hearts aren't in the fight.

you catch more flies with sugar, true. but how many lions do you catch with sugar? you will never show these people that we can play nice together, their holy book says to kill us. we either beat them into submission or give up now, because liberalism and permissiveness will only allow them to become stronger, and one day they will be stronger than us if it continues.

if we are ever to win this they have to fear us more than god. or as much as god.

 

[Beej]

I thought it was a nice sentiment until the propaganda started:

OF COURSE WE DIDN'T KNOW! WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW? OUR MEDIA WOULDN'T TELL US!

Because a Bush- hating media and Democratic Party would rather see the world blow up than lose their power. Instead of shouting these
accomplishments from every rooftop, they would rather show photos of what a few perverted malcontent soldiers have done in prisons in many cases never disclosing the circumstances surrounding the events. Instead of showing our love for our country, we get photos of flag burning incidents
at Abu Ghraib and people throwing snowballs at presidential motorcades.

The lack of accentuating the positive in Iraq serves only one purpose.
It undermines the world's perception of the United States and our soldiers.
I AM ASHAMED OF MY FELLOW AMERICANS WHO WOULD RATHER SEE
TERRORISM SUCCEED THAN A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT. This is verifiable on the Department of Defense website. Pass it on!

Soldiers fighting for their country? Good for you, you have chosen to serve and at great personal cost. Others should commend your actions - serving your duty and following your commands. Your utility doesn't come into this discussion though.

When we start talking about conservative vs liberalism though, we are tilting at windmills. The ideals connected to both sentiments have much more in common with each other than not. The 'good' that has been done in Iraq is not Republican good at the Democrat's expense. Clinton was a warrior too. He had to be, he led a Warrior State. War is dictated by the American economy, Republican or Democrat. Neither is right or wrong, they will both accomplish the same thing and use the same tools to do it... And frankly, the US does not even come close to having a 'liberal' media. Its very conservative, just ask the rest of the world...

 

[8Mud]

you will never show these people that we can play nice together, their holy book says to kill us.

Actually it doesn´t, do a search for the chosen of Allah. Whats a synonym for choosen? May be listed under another similiar word. Christians and Jews are part of the chosen. Like the Bible, the Koran, is kind of hard to make sense of, but I´ve found more than a few chapters, that talk about Christians and others as part of the same mix as Muslims. Kind of like, relatives.
Many of the problems are cultural, much of there thinking often reminds me of us, a hundred and fifty years ago. Much of it is Mullas with an agenda, preaching hate is a great way to pick up a following. And much of it political, using Islam as a justification (see Mullas). Just the same old Iranian, fundamentalist movement, in a somewhat different wraper.
I asked an older Musslim leader, what he thought the problem was, with the Muslim youngsters here, asked him why they do, what they do, his answer was, because they can, back home they´d get a rear full of buckshot. No kiding, that´s what he said.

 

[Glenn B]

Yes, the media does a very poor job of reporting the positive things that are constantly occuring. It is not like the information is not out there and available to them, however that does not fit in with their liberal spin. "Good news" does not sell as well. It is a shame. Fortunately many Americans know better.

I got the following info in an e-mail at work and thought I'd share.

I can't testify to the validity of the statements however it claims to be verifiable on the Dept. of Defense website; I'm not checking.



.........

OF COURSE WE DIDN'T KNOW! WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW? OUR MEDIA WOULDN'T TELL US!

Because a Bush- hating media and Democratic Party would rather see the
world blow up than lose their power. Instead of shouting these
accomplishments from every rooftop, they would rather show photos of what
a few perverted malcontent soldiers have done in prisons in many cases
never disclosing the circumstances surrounding the events. Instead of
showing our love for our country, we get photos of flag burning incidents
at Abu Ghraib and people throwing snowballs at presidential motorcades.

The lack of accentuating the positive in Iraq serves only one purpose.
It undermines the world's perception of the United States and our
soldiers.
I AM ASHAMED OF MY FELLOW AMERICANS WHO WOULD RATHER SEE
TERRORISM SUCCEED THAN A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT.
This is verifiable on the Department of Defense website. Pass it on!

 

[8Mud]

I mentioned cultural differences. Look at a picture of a residential area in Baghdad or most any other city in Iraq. Anybody notice but me, that most every house has like an 8 foot tall, bullet proof wall, all the way around it.
Took a lot of effort to build all those walls. Don´t think it´s just the style, they probably have a very good reason.
Don´t think it´s because they like to dance naked, in the yard, without the neighbors watching.
It´s almost like, all of there nieghbors are thiefs and/or they expect to have a visit from (an aggresive) somebody they´d rather not meet. Or a hail of bullets and/or hand grenades in the streets.
Don´t think the mentality that built all those walls, is gonna disappear in a year or even a generation.
The extra freedoms that democracy brings, may just make things worse, before they get better (hopefully). The people the walls were built to deter, are gonna also have a lot more freedom.
Peoples expectations are often derived from there own experiences, though very few of the people with the expectations, have ever built an 8 foot tall, bullet proof wall, around there house.

 

[Bent]

But I just have to ask this: Is there really ANY set of circumstances which would EVER justify what was done to the prisoners in the pictures from Abu Ghraib?

If the information obtained prevented the injury of even one US soldier it is justified.

 

[8Mud]

If the information obtained prevented the injury of even one US soldier it is justified.

Sorry stuff no matter, what the benenfits. One of the criteria for being labeld a psychopath, is lack of conscience.
I personnaly, would be all in favor of chemical interogation. Damaging there soul, can´t be benefitial. Chemical interogation, would probably be just a foggy memory.
I´ve always believed the police have made more criminals, than they have detered. When I say police, I don´t mean the person, I mean the system. Trying to torment a law breaker into submission, doesn´t seem to work. Beating the heck out of them, will probably make an enemy for life.
Torment a dog enough and it either cowers or becomes viscious. Either result sucks.
I think tormenting the prisoners, for whatever reason, is unproductive, if not down right wrong. But permanantly damaging them, is probably worse.
My next door nieghbor is an old SS Sergant, who was taken prisoner by the Americans and treated decently. He is actually a close friend and somebody I trust.

 

[steve01XJ]

So let's see, the attitude here is that it is OK to mistreat any prisoners we hold because they would have had worse things done to them if they were Iraqi prisoners, Nazi prisoners, or folks arrested in our own country. This seems sort of non-reponsive to the point I was trying to make, not to mention morally repugnant, but let me re-explain what my point was.

If our goal here is to turn over a more democratic nation to a somewhat more stable government in order to stabilize the country and let us get our troops out of there anytime soon, I contend that we need to practice what we preach with respect to the humane treatment of prisoners. We need the support of a vast majority of Iraqis, not just a nebulous "most of the Iraqis" according to the Fox News poll of the day in order for their indigneous society to denounce the radicals effectively and not give momentum to radicals by demonstrating hypocrisy.

This is not a liberal slant on the matter, and no I do not watch CNN or any of the other letter stations - including the letters F O X. To me this is an issue which transcends partisanship. It is common sense. How are people going to respect and embrace democracy if we do not practice it in front of them?

And if you believe that we will never get them to embrace democracy, it kind of begs the question - why the hell are we there to begin with? If Ho Chi Minh taught us anything, it was that you can't win wars like this.

Some may think saving one American life is worth torturing potentially innocent people. I would suggest that we could have saved 1750 American deaths and 20,000 American casualties, not to mention billions of dollars if we had just let Hussein's regime implode all by itself. American troops should only be committed to war to defend our national interests. To date, we have not been given a legitimate national interest to defend by invading Iraq.

 

[Glenn B]

Right, you get caught up in the propoganda, and how we abuse them, torture them, etc.... What a crock of shite.

1st, they are prisoners, and as such, they are not coddled like some Democrats want. Sorry, not gonna happen. period.

2nd, they are treated better than many prisoners in prison in the US. If you can read a bit, see here: http://www.talkmilitary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1772

3rd, they are well afforded their religious practices, as much as I disagree with that allowance.

4th, Read this, and then wonder where the stories of torture come from:
The Manchester Document

5th, I hope your Democrat party actually puts up a viable candidate this time. No traitors, liars, lawyers, theives, etc.... come up with a good one. Maybe you will have a chance this time. If you win, I look forward to bashing your President and Administration just as some of you do the current one. It will be fun to play arm chair general, and watch your candidate learn and suffer the hard way, and flail as Clinton did in Somalia. Good luck.

So let's see, the attitude here is that it is OK to mistreat any prisoners we hold because they would have had worse things done to them if they were Iraqi prisoners, Nazi prisoners, or folks arrested in our own country. This seems sort of non-reponsive to the point I was trying to make, not to mention morally repugnant, but let me re-explain what my point was.

If our goal here is to turn over a more democratic nation to a somewhat more stable government in order to stabilize the country and let us get our troops out of there anytime soon, I contend that we need to practice what we preach with respect to the humane treatment of prisoners. We need the support of a vast majority of Iraqis, not just a nebulous "most of the Iraqis" according to the Fox News poll of the day in order for their indigneous society to denounce the radicals effectively and not give momentum to radicals by demonstrating hypocrisy.

This is not a liberal slant on the matter, and no I do not watch CNN or any of the other letter stations - including the letters F O X. To me this is an issue which transcends partisanship. It is common sense. How are people going to respect and embrace democracy if we do not practice it in front of them?

And if you believe that we will never get them to embrace democracy, it kind of begs the question - why the hell are we there to begin with? If Ho Chi Minh taught us anything, it was that you can't win wars like this.

Some may think saving one American life is worth torturing potentially innocent people. I would suggest that we could have saved 1750 American deaths and 20,000 American casualties, not to mention billions of dollars if we had just let Hussein's regime implode all by itself. American troops should only be committed to war to defend our national interests. To date, we have not been given a legitimate national interest to defend by invading Iraq.