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Head gasket didn't solve overheating

What year is it? I assume it is 91 and later (open system). If not (closed system) did you bleed the system properly. Did you check each cylinder independently with the IR gun? Just my .02.

Matt
 
I can drive around no problems at all as long as I keep my foot out of it...

Lay into it... it overheats... (250F)... only way to cool it down is to get >40mph and let the converter lock... I can touch the brake peddle (turn on the light only, no application of braking) to unlock the converter and just watch the temperature rise again... Converter locked... moving 45-55mph... cools back to 215F... hit 65+ mph it's 220F at the worst... Unlock the converter... 225-230F at those speeds...

Idling is 215-220F as long as it wasn't overheated to start with.

That sure sounds like a tranny issue to me.

Gears... 4.11s with 32s...

Will borrow an IR gun this weekend... will systematically go down the line.. want to also put in a tranny temp gage and remove the tranny from the radiator all together, (rely on plate and coil exchanger only).

I've also got a heater core from an 83 stang.. it's HUGE!... thinking about putting it in parallel to the heater hoses and sticking it under the fan on the hood....

Will hit yards for a 97+ electric fan (somewhere I read those move more air).

Feeling a little better after today (put about 100 miles on it)...
 
This is very similar to what I've been dealing with for the past month or so. I haven't done the head gasket yet, but everything else is pretty much the same.

I mounted the Ford Explorer heater core over a fan on the hood, the core is the same dimensions as your Mustang core, but the inlet-outlet lines are bent nicely to let you route hoses without kinking, you may have to bend your inlet/outlet to avoid this.

My new core didn't solve the issue, but was a good band-aid. Before I would get up to 240-250F anytime I saw a hill or pushed the RMS up to 3K and over, now it won't get as high- around 235F under the same conditions. The core itself dumps a TON of heat, you can't put your hand on it and when the fan runs it evacuates a lot of very warm air. When I got the increased radiator area (the core) I aded yet another trans cooler because of the same thoughts you have had. I now have the original cooler in the radiator, a Ford stacked-plate style cooler in front of the radiator on the drivers side, and a large B&M style cooler on the passenger side. I was thinking the trans was heating up the radiator and the loss of airflow would be worth keeping the dual trans coolers. Now I'm not so sure, if the radiator never gets above 220, my trans fluid should be fine with just the one additional cooler so my priority should be in finding out why the engine is heating up when I stick my foot in it.

Good luck, because of the similarity I'm very interested in your fix, if any.
 
Getting closer...

So. Sunday was hot. Time to test...

Taking the transmission OUT of the radiator makes it OVERHEAT more! The tranny fluild was actually adding cooling capacity to the system!!

Just driving around today, hit 240 until hit interstate for a LONG time for it to cool back down.

Tranny is OUT of the radiator now.... temperature measurements taken on the heat exchanger...
1) Torque converter LOCKED 5 miles at 70mph, hot side was 145F, cold side 120F.
2) Punish the tranny with miles of unlocked, followed by WOT blasts, and brake torques, hot side 175F, cold side 150F.


In the past, locking the converter helped the system cool down simply by adding more cooling capacity to the system. When the tranny converter unlocked, it got hotter simply because it lost that extra capacity.

The radiator on the other hand was a different story... hot side 210-215F, cold side 200-205F.

We're getting closer... not enough capacity in the radiator...

So that's gotta boil down to 3 things???
1) Air moving through radiator. There's 1 mechanical (new clutch), 1 puller and 1 pusher fan. Will put that on back burner.
2) Coolant moving too fast
3) Restricted, and not enough coolant moving through it. Temperatures are now uniform all over the radiator, so I'm kinda leaning against this one too as if it were restricted you should see temperature differences. Noticed this with the tranny cooling hooked up in that it was colder where the cooler tranny fluid came in.
 
robs said:
--Just driving around today, hit 240 until hit interstate for a LONG time for it to cool back down.

The radiator on the other hand was a different story... hot side 210-215F, cold side 200-205F.

I don't see the problem. If the hot side is only 210-215, your not overheating, your guage is bad. That's what mine ended up being, it took a lot of faith in my temp measurements, but last weekend when the needle went into the red as I climbed over Parley's Summit (about 6500 ft and pretty steep) I stuck the gas to the floor and flew past traffic like it was standing still. The needle ended up pegging to the hot side, but when that happened last week at home I had a thermometer on it and the thermostat housing was 215*. NOT hot, bad guage.

FWIW, I even replaced the sender unit, there is still a major error in the system, but it's not overheating. You'll want to triple-check before you ignore the gauge.
 
Did you get the head mag'd when you did the head gasket?? Some of the early 4.0's were notorious for cracked heads.. If you can get your hands on an emissions tester and stick close to the kneck of the rad with the cap off, see if there is any hydrocarbons in the cooling... Reading this thread sounds like your running around in circles... I feel for you.. It sounds like when your accelorating the temp creeps up on you as if you have a cracked head or block... just an opinion...
 
I didn't write that very well.

Yes. The gage is dead nuts verified IR gun. Like a dumas, I didn't ck the radiator while it was at 240... I checked it at 215-220F and I wasn't getting much more than 10-15F temperature drop across it.

I've got a brand new temperature sensor. The t-stat housing with the IR gun is dead nuts to the gage that's at the back of the block.

I have had the radiator checked for hydrocarbons just a couple days ago. Clean bill of health.

Griffin wants $700 for a two core radiator rated at 600hp. That sucks.

hotthumb.jpg
 
Well, I had a similar problem when my XJ didn't have a t-stat; it would get hot on the highway, driving over 50-60mph; I have a manual tranny, so that was for sure not the problem.

I installed a t-stat and it was gone, now the temperatures are 100% stable on the highway. The problem was due to a excessive flow and no t-stat controlling it, maybe with a too high flow, the coolant only passes one section of the radiator, and not through all of it as it should be.

If you want to find out if that's the problem, just switch to neutral when you'r rig is getting hot (yes, when driving fast), if your engine cools down quickly, it's possible that the problem is related to the flow of the coolant.

Regards
 
Had a Radiator Barn radiator... then a CSF... then a Vistion... (put the fan through that one)... the CSF is back on it...

Got a real live Mopar T-stat to install tomorrow. It's an act of futility until the filter shows up.
 
robs said:
Had a Radiator Barn radiator... then a CSF... then a Vistion... (put the fan through that one)... the CSF is back on it...

Got a real live Mopar T-stat to install tomorrow. It's an act of futility until the filter shows up.

I'd be looking hard at that head again. Was it magnafluxed?
 
robs said:
No... but it just passed a hyrocarbon test...

Seems to me that if the crack was letting exhaust gas into the coolant chamber you would be heating up without burning water, so it woudn't show up on the hydrocarbon test. You might see bubbles in the overflow tank or radiator with the cap off (when cool).
 
I assume that you will look at this post and laugh, because as much as you have done to your rig, I hope you have changed the hoses?

I was just looking over it again and I have not seen any mention of the hoses..
and i know bla bla bla hoses are hoses...
We did somthing just like this replaced everything on my dad's slant in his valient...
We ended up just letting it run really hot untill the hose burst...
Turns out the inside of the hose was heating up and separating and then filling with coolent and closing off the flow of the water to the engine... The coils that keep the hose from collapsing rusted and cut in to the side enough to open a small slice...
I never saw it before and have not seen it since.
but you never know.
besides you seem to be doing everything right to get this fixed...

you have tried squeezing the hoses right making sure they are hard and all like they should be when hot...

Like i said this is probebly old news to you but worth a shot..

good luck
 
Yes... all hoses have been replaced at least once... a few 3 or so times...

Of all things the MOPAR t-stat has made a HUGE difference....

I have been able to drive around all day at 195-210F... even with WOT blasts on the road!!!! WOW!!!

Did some mild off roading... stayed at 210F... flogged it offroad and it came up to 240F and couldn't get it to come back down... One mile at 55mph on the highway and back down to 210F...

On the right track.
 
You said it passed HC test. What were the readings. If once it gets hot you can't get it to cool down very fast then you either have a lack of cooling (ie. clogged radiator) or you are generating too much heat (ie. running too lean)

I am going to outline a few things for those who might search this thread.

Back to basics. Lack of cooling has to do with two major components. Fluid flow and radiator efficiency. Fluid flow starts with the water pump. A surprisingly common problem lies in the fact that there are two type of water pumps. Regular and reverse rotation. They look the same on the outside. The impeller inside is the difference. Get the wrong one and your coolant flow is significantly reduced. The water flow is controlled by the thermostat. It holds the flow back to force the engine to hit operating temperature. Thermostats tend to fail either in the closed or open state. A common problem with overheating after replacement lies in the fact that the thermostat can be installed backwards. Replacing the 195 degree thermostat with a lower temp thermostat is a bandaid. You are not fixing the problem, only masking it during certain operating conditions.

Given a good water pump and a good thermostat, only a few things are left in the flow departement. At higher rpms, the lower radiator hose can collapse and reduce the water flow. A good hose has an internal "spring" to keep the hose open. If none of these are the problem, then the radiator may be blocked with corrosion. Surprisingly enough, I have seen quite a few brand new radiators that have low flow due to manufacturing problems.

If the flow is not a problem, then heat transfer from the radiator into the air is the next most likely issue. Radiators require a good flow of air to effect cooling. Driving at highway speeds, the bulk of the air flow is from ram effect through the grill. At slow speeds, the radiator fan is the main contributor. The fan is driven from the serpentine belt, through a thermostatically controlled clutch. This clutch does not couple the rotation from the belt to the fan if it is cool. When hot, it is supposed to "lock" and spin the fan. This fan clutch is a common culprit. When the engine is hot, turn the engine off, if the fan spins by hand freely, the fan clutch is shot. If the engine temps fall when you get up to speed, suspect the fan clutch. If the fan clutch is good, then the issue is air flow throught the radiator. Over time, the small holes that the air uses to flow through the radiator can become clogged with debris or the fins can become bent, reducing the air flow. Spray painting a raditor with too heavy a coat of paint can also clog or even simply reduce the surface conductivity of the fins, reducing the cooling.

There are two other external items that can contribute to overheating as well. First is the air conditioning "radiator" that sits in front of the engine radiator. They can be plugged, blocking air flow. When the AC is on, it significantly heats the air flowing though the main radiator. That is why the auxilliary fan is set to turn on when the AC is on.

The other contributor occurs with automatic transmission equiped vehicles. Automatic trannies generate considerable heat. They are cooled by circulating their hot fluid through an external radiator. In some vehicles, this is a true radiator in front of the standard radiator. In an XJ, there is a small "radiator" inside the normal radiator that transfers the tranny fluid's heat into the antifreeze. A slipping tranny can generate considerable heat, causing a boil over.

Having said all of that, the radiator cap is a very important part of the cooling system. The purpose of the radiator cap is to hold pressure in the cooling system. Physics says that as you increase the pressure, you raise the boiling point of the fluid. The greater the difference between the ambient air temp and the antifreeze temp, the more efficiently the heat can be transferred to the air. The standard thermostat temp is around 195 degrees. Here in Colorado, the boiling point of water is down around 200 degrees, or way lower on the mountain trails. Without the added pressure, the system would boil at normal operating temps. If the radiator cap does not hold its designed pressure, it will allow the fluid to boil and end up in the overflow bottle or the ground. Many parts stores will say a 13 pound cap is correct for an XJ. You really need a 16 lb cap. You should make sure the mating surface of the cap is clean before installing. The rubber gasket degrades with time. You should replace the radiator cap every year or two. You can't tell if it is good by looking. A new radiator cap is a cheap "try it and see" item.

This has been a cursory overview of the cooling system and how it works.

When you say your XJ is overheating, how do you know? If it is not actually boiling over, the problem may not really exist. Inaccurate temp gauge readings are quite common. The temp sender may be defective. It is located on the top of the head on the driver's side at the rear. You may also get inaccurate readings if there is an air bubble in the engine. This keeps the antifreeze from reaching the sensor and yields bad readings. You can loosen the temp sensor slightly until antifreeze starts coming out, to "burp" the system. Lastly the gauge or wiring may be defective. A non-contact IR thermometer is handy to see if the engine is actually overheating.

You can actually have a boil over situation when you have a perfect cooling system. If you run the engine too lean, excessive heat is generated. More heat than the cooling system can handle. The old shade tree technique is to pull a couple of spark plugs and do a plug reading. If the spark plugs are white or very light you are running too lean. Any more, technology comes to the rescue. The same place that does your emissions test can do a tailpipe sniff to measure your HC. This will give you a definitive answer to whether or not you are running too lean.

Running too lean, has several possible causes. At low rpms, a vacuum leak will cause overheating. As rpm's increase, the ratio of leak to actual air going through the throttle body is reduced and the leak has less effect. A clogged injector can also cause lean burn. The computer can acutally tell the injectors to output too little fuel if it gets the wrong sensor info. The O2 sensor normally fails causing the engine to run too rich, but it can go the opposite way as well. The MAP sensor also has a major impact on fuel air ratio. The throttle position sensor also is a major control sensor, but if it is off, it is normally compensated for by the computer monitoring the O2 sensor.

There is actually a condition where you can overheat and not be running too lean. This occurs when the exhaust is restricted. The common culprit here is a clogged CAT, but it can also be a muffler or a pinched exhaust pipe.

Hopefully this short tutorial has given you some insight into the most common overheating causes and will allow you to troubleshoot the problem instead of blindly throwing parts (money) at the problem.

Good luck.
 
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