Forced Induction

[O-Gauge Steamer]

Here is another thought for you to consider...

Mercedes uses a clutch on their supercharger. As I understand it, it is operated via a vacuum operated switch. With the compressor completely disconnected, the parasitic power loss is reduced when not under boost.

Interesting idea.

 

[Talyn]

I remember reading that. Like an ac compressor clutch. But its a huge pulley too, which also depends on the crank pulley size. Using the bypass valve the air would bypass the non spinning sc and go to the manifold.

 

[Talyn]

And speaking of clutches some vehicles have a clutch for the mechanical fan as well. I can't remember which ones, but IIRC they were trucks. Less drag there too.

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

Interesting ideas for sure. Amazing the lengths folk will go to in order to get better mileage out of the vehicle...

Now for something useful.

Just so you know, I am considering an M112.

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

Continuing in the spirit of being useful, here is a list of Eaton Compressors used by OEMs. Read the list as the guide below indicates. The "TVS" rotor type has 4 lobes instead of three and the displacement is metric (CC) instead of imperial (CuIn). The missing vehicle in the list is the Rover but it uses the same compressor as the Jaguar as both were Ford Products when built...

Rotor Type
Size
Oil Fill (ml)
Oil Fill (fl oz)

Audi A6/S4
TVS
R1320
155
5.2

BMW / Mini
3-lobe
M45
145 + 40 (rear)
4.9 + 1.4 (rear)

Mercedes M271
3-lobe
M45
135
4.6

Mercedes EVO M111
3-lobe
M45
110
3.7

Mercedes Clutched
3-lobe
M62
110
3.7

Ford
3-lobe
M24
35
1.2

Ford Super Coupe
3-lobe
M90
240
8.1

Ford Shelby GT500
3-lobe
hybrid
H122
140
4.7

Ford Harley-Davidson
F150
3-lobe
M112
215
7.3

Ford Lightning
3-lobe
M112
215
7.3

Ford Cobra
3-lobe
M112
215
7.3

GM 3800 Series L67
3-lobe
M90
225
7.6

GM 3800 Series L32
3-lobe
M90
205
6.9

GM Cobalt SS LSJ
3-lobe
M62
100
3.4

GM Cadillac LC3 Northstar
3-lobe
M112
215
7.3

GM Cadillac LSA
TVS
R1900
150
5.1

GM Corvette LS9
TVS
R2300
150
5.1

Jaguar AJ33
3-lobe
M112
215
7.3

Jaguar AJ43/44
3-lobe
M112
215
7.3

Jaguar AJ133
TVS
R1900
150
5.1

Nissan
3-lobe
M62
115
3.9

Volkswagen
3-lobe
M24
40
1.4

Hope this helps!

 

[SolarBell]

This has come up a bit lately with the research I've done and what I've seen discussed lately, so I figured I would summarize. Keep in mind these are overviews and are not extensive. Feel free to correct as I am far from an expert.


Supercharger mounting positions available for the 4.0L XJ with pros /cons


* Far passenger side
This is generally hung from the side of the A/C compressor mount and braced to the motor mount. The discharge piping has to run over the top of the engine to the intake manifold. Some adaptation has to be done to enter the stock intake manifold on top of the mounting and intake requirements.

Pros:
- Retention of A/C system
- No holes in hood
- Capability to add an intercooler relatively easily
- Air intake comes from colder side of engine
Cons:
- Have to relocate the battery, coolant overflow, and potentially the PCM.
- To retain the A/C have to alter the condenser piping
- Requires fabricating an idler pulley in addition to the supercharger mount
- Mounting is harder due to the cantilever off the A/C mount


* A/C mount
This replaces the A/C compressor with the supercharger. The discharge piping has to run over the top of the engine to the intake manifold. Some adaptation has to be done to enter the stock intake manifold on top of the mounting and intake requirements.

Pros:
- No holes in hood
- Fairly simple mounting system
- No idler pulley required
- Capability to add an intercooler very easily
- Minimal relocation of other components required
- Air intake comes from colder side of engine
Cons:
- Loss of A/C system and compressor
- Typically a tight fit for throttle body and intake


* Top of intake manifold
The method generally places the supercharger directly on top of the intake manifold. Machined plates convert the discharge port of the supercharger into the intake manifold, but there are significant variations on that method. This it the mounting style of the somewhat popular Rimmer-designed kits found on eBay.

Pros:
- Fairly simple mounting system
- Almost no relocation of engine components required
- Retention of A/C system
Cons:
- No intercooler possible - must use water/meth injection if needed
- Large hole in hood required
- Extra idler pulley required
- Intake piping is tight due to firewall and depending on supercharger size
- Extra support of the intake manifold is recommended due to the weight


* Side of intake manifold
This method generally places the supercharger directly on the side of the intake manifold. Typically only seen to this point on the Sprintex kit as extensive modifications of the stock intake manifold are required otherwise along with the mounting plates.

Pros:
- Fairly simple mounting system
- Almost no relocation of engine components required
- Retention of A/C system
- No hole in hood required
Cons:
- No intercooler possible - must use water/meth injection if needed
- Modification of stock idler pulley required
- Intake piping is tight due to firewall and depending on supercharger size
- Extra support of the intake manifold is recommended due to the weight
- Typically requires alterations to the power steering tank


* Far Drivers side
This method generally mounts the supercharger just below the intake manifold, typically with the discharge to the driver's side. Typically the most space-constrained option due to the exhaust and brakes. Usually requires a short-snout supercharger to be effectively mounted.

Pros:
- No holes in hood
- Retention of A/C system
- No idler pulley required
- Capability to add an intercooler fairly easily
- Minimal relocation of other components required
Cons:
- Mounting can be more complex
- Highly space constrained


Notes:
- For all installations, a new serpentine belt is mandatory as the length is guaranteed to be at least a little longer.
- For all superchargers I have seen that are properly sized for the 4.0L the port from the supercharger to the intake manifold must be at least 5.0 square inches. Any smaller will restrict the supercharger (This number is dependent on the supercharger as well - The M90 has a discharge port at 4.9 square inches). This translates to a port at least 66mm in diameter. Larger is better.

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

Fair summation.

As a side note, the Sprintex kit is supported by the Driver's side engine mount via a small piece that bolts to both the mount and the replacement intake manifold. It can not be stressed enough that the weight of the compressor be properly supported.

Discharge Port. One of the issues I have with the Rimmer kit is that the Jeep intake manifold is not modified in any fashion. As a result, the discharge port is occluded by the intake manifold which will result in higher compressor temperatures.

Heat is our enemy. Everything that can be done to reduce restrictions is only for the good. Large TB, properly sized discharge connections, header blankets, intake manifold insulation, outside air for the TB...

It all helps.

Also consider the operating temperature of the engine. I run, for the most part, at 193(F) due to the electric water pump installation and the 180(F) thermostat and an aluminium radiator. Keeping the engine on the cool side allows room in the cooling system for those full boost accelerations.

You know, the "I have the power and need to verify it is still working" accelerations.

AKA the "Blow the Doors off of the Ricer" runs...

 

[gradon]

Too bad I have a high-comp stroker, cause I have the perfect place for it:

 

[SolarBell]

Here are the Intake Air Temperature (IAT) sensor resistance values for the stock 4.0L sensor and the AEM aftermarket IAT sensor. These sensors are thermistors, or thermal reactive resistors. They are considered negative temperature coefficient thermisters, which means that the resistance goes down as the temperature goes up.

Stock IAT sensor

Temp C | Temp F |  R (ohms) | Tolerance
---------------------------------------
 -40   |  -40   |  336,600  | 13.4%
 -20   |   -4   |   97,120  | 11.6%
 -10   |   14   |   55,340  | 11.0%
   0   |   32   |   32,660  | 10.2%
  10   |   50   |   19,990  |  9.6%
  20   |   68   |   12,490  |  8.9%
  25   |   77   |   10,000  |  8.8%
  30   |   86   |    8,060  |  8.5%
  40   |  104   |    5,325  |  7.9%
  50   |  122   |    3,605  |  7.6%
  60   |  140   |    2,490  |  7.2%
  70   |  158   |    1,750  |  6.9%
  80   |  176   |    1,255  |  6.7%
  90   |  194   |      915  |  6.0%
 100   |  212   |      680  |  5.9%
 110   |  230   |      510  |  5.8%
 120   |  248   |      390  |  5.1%

AEM IAT Sensor

Temp C | Temp F |  R (ohms)  | Tolerance
----------------------------------------
 -40   |  -40   |  99,326    | 10.5%
 -35   |  -31   |  71,332    | 10.0%
 -30   |  -22   |  51,791    | 9.6%
 -25   |  -13   |  37,994    | 9.1%
 -20   |   -4   |  28,146    | 8.7%
 -15   |    5   |  21,044    | 8.3%
 -10   |   14   |  15,873    | 7.8%
  -5   |   23   |  12,073    | 7.4%
   0   |   32   |   9,256    | 7.0%
   5   |   41   |   7,153    | 6.7%
  10   |   50   |   5,572    | 6.4%
  15   |   59   |   4,373    | 6.1%
  20   |   68   |   3,457    | 5.9%
  25   |   77   |   2,752    | 5.6%
  30   |   86   |   2,205    | 5.3%
  35   |   95   |   1,778    | 5.0%
  40   |  104   |   1,443    | 4.7%
  45   |  113   |   1,177    | 4.5%
  50   |  122   |     965    | 4.2%
  55   |  131   |     796    | 3.9%
  60   |  140   |     660    | 3.7%
  65   |  149   |     551    | 3.5%
  70   |  158   |     462    | 3.2%
  75   |  167   |     389    | 3.0%
  80   |  176   |     329    | 2.8%
  85   |  185   |     279    | 2.6%
  90   |  194   |     238.1  | 2.4%
  95   |  203   |     203.9  | 2.1%
 100   |  212   |     175.3  | 2.0%
 105   |  221   |     151.3  | 2.2%
 110   |  230   |     131.0  | 2.5%
 115   |  239   |     113.9  | 2.6%
 120   |  248   |      99.4  | 2.8%
 125   |  257   |      87.0  | 2.9%
 130   |  266   |      76.4  | 3.0%
 135   |  275   |      67.3  | 3.1%
 140   |  284   |      59.4  | 3.2%
 145   |  293   |      52.6  | 3.2%
 150   |  302   |      46.7  | 3.2%

 

[SolarBell]

Question from curiosity.

What are the pros and cons, when retrofitting forced induction, of putting the throttle body prior to the compressor versus after the compressor (which I've heard referred to as 'blow-through')?

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

With a blow through, you MUST use a pop off valve to vent the excess boost pressure once the throttle closes. A draw through system does not require this extra part as it naturally chokes off the compressor and allows the bypass valve to open. The bypass will open once the discharge manifold moves away from positive pressure. This is why they get the operating signal plumbed from the discharge side of the compressor.

The Turbo Guys like the draw through so that they can have yet another "Gee Whizzbang" noise coming out from under the hood to go with their fart cans...

With the exception of the Studebaker Golden Hawk, all factory installed Forced Induction systems are draw through.

If the vehicle in question has a MAF sensor (I can only wish ours did...) then the compressor must draw through the MAF in order for the ECU to get an accurate flow reading.

Even the '79 Turbo Ghia Mustang I had was a draw through. And it had a 2bbl carburettor on it. The carb in question was the Ford copy of a Weber design. If memory serves it may have been a 4100? Long time ago. Like 1981...

In our particular case, the Factory MAP Sensor must always see vacuum or the PCM will not know what to do. Utilizing the stock electronics in the stock manner as much as possible just makes it easier to tune the modified engine.

No sense fighting the PCM, you will lose the argument.

And yes, I have worked on Golden Hawks thank you all so very much for pointing out my age yet again.

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

Just a quick note for those that use the AEM F/IC products.

You can write the maps in excel and do a copy/paste into the AEM software. I have done this copying my F/IC8 program values into a F/IC6 device. The programs do not play nice with each other and this is a clean work around.

Procedurally, I started the F/IC8 programming software, loaded the latest version of my maps and then did a copy of the maps into excel. Takes longer to describe than it take to do...

 

[Talyn]

Lol.. nice sig.

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

For those interested in what is the "state of the art" in forced induction assisted internal combustion engines, a brief video on the new for 2014 Formula 1 engine. This is simply amazing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vIjJg0lXgc

Enjoy!

 

[Talyn]

Those RPM numbers are just nuts. The ERS-H is interesting.

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

The engines this year are software limited to 15,000 RPM. Down from the 18,000 RPM limits put on the 2.4L V-8 from last season.

Did you catch what the operating fuel pressure is?

You do realize that, technically, these things are now hybrids? It was amazing listening to the comments from the Drivers, on Sunday, about what it takes to drive the cars. Apparently, the power from the electric motors comes on like a steam engine. From nothing to full power at a flick of the throttle pedal.

I am finding it interesting that the electric power delivery is not under Driver control (like it has been up to now, a switch on the steering wheel) but is integrated into the systems software directly.

Makes for some very "live" cars. Twitchy even. Made Sunday's race very interesting. Next race is in two weeks. Is carried on NBCSN.

 

[yossarian19]

Do I remember correctly that the electric motor is only used to spool the turbo, no other path to the wheels?
If so, the finicky term is "mild hybrid" - applies to any hybrid without a motor-generator connection to transmission or drive axle.
Very, Very cool motor tech.
Anyone catch the direct injected gas / compression ignition engine that Delphi and, I think, Hyundai came up with? Both turbo and supercharged, came to 100 brake horsepower per liter on a 1.6 liter 4 cylinder. Not bad for a first of it's breed...

 

[O-Gauge Steamer]

There are two electric motors. As has been the case for a few years, one of them is connected to the crankshaft via gears and doubles as a generator to charge the ERS. The new this year addition is attached to the turbocharger to spool it back up to speed after the brakes have been applied. In both cases, the motors are under computer control. Up to now, the KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery System) was controlled via a switch on the steering wheel.

Besides the addition of the second motor, the primary motor has had it's power doubled for this year. 160 horses come on line in a rush.

Calendar:
01 2014 FORMULA 1 ROLEX AUSTRALIAN GRAND PRIX (Melbourne) 14 - 16 Mar
02 2014 FORMULA 1 PETRONAS MALAYSIA GRAND PRIX (Kuala Lumpur) 28 - 30 Mar
03 2014 FORMULA 1 GULF AIR BAHRAIN GRAND PRIX (Sakhir) 04 - 06 Apr
04 2014 FORMULA 1 UBS CHINESE GRAND PRIX (Shanghai) 18 - 20 Apr
05 FORMULA 1 GRAN PREMIO DE ESPAÑA PIRELLI 2014 (Catalunya) 09 - 11 May
06 FORMULA 1 GRAND PRIX DE MONACO 2014 (Monte Carlo) 22 - 25 May
07 FORMULA 1 GRAND PRIX DU CANADA 2014 (Montréal) 06 - 08 Jun
08 FORMULA 1 GROSSER PREIS VON ÖSTERREICH 2014 (Spielberg) 20 - 22 Jun
09 2014 FORMULA 1 SANTANDER BRITISH GRAND PRIX (Silverstone) 04 - 06 Jul
10 FORMULA 1 GROSSER PREIS SANTANDER VON DEUTSCHLAND 2014 (Hockenheim) 18 - 20 Jul
11 FORMULA 1 PIRELLI MAGYAR NAGYDÍJ 2014 (Budapest) 25 - 27 Jul
12 2014 FORMULA 1 SHELL BELGIAN GRAND PRIX (Spa-Francorchamps) 22 - 24 Aug
13 FORMULA 1 GRAN PREMIO D'ITALIA 2014 (Monza) 05 - 07 Sep
14 2014 FORMULA 1 SINGAPORE GRAND PRIX (Singapore) 19 - 21 Sep
15 2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GRAND PRIX (Suzuka) 03 - 05 Oct
16 2014 FORMULA 1 RUSSIAN GRAND PRIX (Sochi) 10 - 12 Oct
17 2014 FORMULA 1 UNITED STATES GRAND PRIX (Austin) 31 Oct - 02 Nov
18 FORMULA 1 GRANDE PRÊMIO DO BRASIL 2014 (São Paulo) 07 - 09 Nov
19 2014 FORMULA 1 ETIHAD AIRWAYS ABU DHABI GRAND PRIX (Yas Marina) 21 - 23 Nov

I extend invitations to those that have an appreciation for the combination of raw power coupled to the finesse required to drive an F1 car. Not something everyone can do. Routinely, these guys endure 4.5G turns as well as breaking forces nearly as high.

 

[Hoooper]

Did you catch what the operating fuel pressure is?

500 bar, not actually all that high considering modern common rail diesels are running 1600 bar and more

 

[child9]

How does power from a steam engine come on instantly?