• Welcome to the new NAXJA Forum! If your password does not work, please use "Forgot your password?" link on the log-in page. Please feel free to reach out to [email protected] if we can provide any assistance.

Forced Induction

OK! Steam Engines! Wait, what is my screen name? O-Gauge Steamer?

There is a funny thing that happens with a steam engine. Something that only an electric motor comes close to reproducing but with a significant difference.

A internal combustion engine builds torque as the engine speed increases. Load the engine too early and it stalls. This we all know and accept as normal. Rather silly if you think about it...

An electric motor can develop it's maximum torque at a very low speed but will stall out also if the load exceeds the torque available. This also we all know and accept.

Then we come to steam engines that are not only perfectly capable of supplying maximum torque at zero rpm but it will not "stall" either.

Do not confuse a lack of mechanism movement with a stall.

In the early days of steam, more than on engine destroyed itself due to the inattention of the operator. If the driven mechanism is bound, incapable of translating the reciprocating motion to rotary motion, then what usually happens is that the connecting rod from the piston to the flywheel turns into a pretzel.

For example:
NYCNiagarabrokenrod_10-1949_zps951a425e.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

What happened here, as you can barely read... Is that the engine "came to a grinding halt" obviously, the Engineer did not get the steam cut off soon enough.

Then, there is this nice example of the power of steam:
BentRod_zps332b7372.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]

Ah yes, the mechanism was bound and the engine continued to supply power. This is, actually the largest drawback to steam power. It has no built in safeties. Whereas, both internal combustion and electric will stall out protecting themselves, a steam engine is perfectly happy to rampage about destroying everything it can.

And you wonder why I like them...

At the end of Big Steam (the era I model) Locomotives were utilizing a concept called "super heating". The steam collected in the steam dome atop the boiler was first routed through the exhaust gasses before being delivered to the working cylinders.

Consider this. The working pressure of the end of life boilers was 350psi. Now, those of you out there that are Science Geeks can grasp just how bloody hot the water had to be in order for it to vapourize at that pressure. Then, you run it through the exhaust heating it up even more. Then you release it into the cylinders where it expands.

A steam engine has two basic controls. The Throttle Lever and the Johnson Bar. The throttle is understandable the Johnson Bar on the other hand... The Johnson Bar selects the direction in which the engine turns the wheels plus neutral. The most efficient way to operate a steam locomotive has the Engineer place the Bar in a portion of the travel called the "cut off". What is happening is that the timing is being altered to cut off the steam early allowing it to work by expansion instead of just by pressure. Each Company (i.e. Union Pacific etal) had a spot in the travel of the Bar that Engineers derisively called "The Company Notch". Engineers at the corporate level ran some numbers and decided that that location gave the best performance whilst minimizing the steam usage. Most Locomotive Engineer disregarded this and ran the engine as conditions warranted.

It was a matter of fuel economy. The steam is obviously lost and water has to be pumped back into the boiler. Use too much water and the train stops early. Bad to delivery times, bad for the bottom line. Engineers that blatantly did this were fired. Union notwithstanding.

In the end, it was the incredible maintenance costs as well as the labour costs that killed the steam engine.

As for what they were, here is a brief description of the largest engine ever built. Teh Union Pacific Big Boy.

"During the late 1930s, the Union Pacific often used helpers to move trains from Ogden to Wahsatch. The UP wanted to simplify this move so they asked their "Department of Research and Mechanical Standards" (DoRMS) to design a locomotive that could pull a 3600 ton train unassisted over the 1.14% grade of the Wahsatch.
The designers determined that to pull a 3600 ton train, a tractive effort of 135,000 lbs would be needed. Assuming a factor of adhesion of 4.0, the weight on drivers would have to be 4.0 * 135,000 = 540,000 lbs. Given an axle loading of 67,500 lbs each, this would require 8 drivers or an x-8-8-x wheel arrangement. The designers agreed upon the 4-8-8-4 design. Next, the horsepower and cylinder sizes were computed based on 300 psi boiler pressure. Although they weren't planning to pull these freight trains at 80 MPH, the DoRMS designed them for 80 MPH in order to have a sufficient factor of safety built into the design. What resulted is considered by many to be the most successful articulated steam locomotive ever built. 4000 was delivered to Omaha at 6PM, September 5, 1941.

The 25 Big Boys were built in two groups. The first group, called "class 1", were built starting in 1941. They were numbered 4000-4019. The second group, "class 2", were built in 1944. They were numbered 4020-4024. The last revenue freight pulled by a Big Boy was in July of 1959. Most were retired in 1961. The last one was retired in July of 1962. As late as September, 1962, there were still four operational Big Boys at Green River, WY.

The total mileage of each of the Big Boys from class 1 were roughly the same -- 1,000,000 miles. 4016 had the lowest mileage -- 1,016,124. 4006 had the highest mileage -- 1,064,625. Of the second group, 4024 had the highest mileage -- 811,956.

Firebox heating surface included 111 sq ft (10.3 sq m) in seven inverted-T shape circulators and a combustion chamber extending 9 ft 3 in (2.8 m) forward of the ashpan. One of the heaviest engines in the world, the 25 "Big Boys" were the largest steam engines ever built for regular service. The last five delivered in 1944 were fitted with Type A superheaters.

The Big Boys carried almost 70,000 lb (31,752 kg) more on its relatively tall drivers than did any other engine of comparable driver size. (The DM&IR's M3 2-8-8-4 engines -- Locobase 2405 -- had a higher weight on drivers, but had 63-inch/1,600 mm drivers.) Each one cost $265,000 when delivered.

These engines could maintain 70 mph (113 km/h) and rode quite steadily (The four pistons evacuated 22,700 cu ft/642.8 cu m of steam per minute at that speed.)"

And yes, I have one of these monsters on the rails in my basement along with it's "baby brother "The Challenger" which is a 4-6-6-4 wheel combination. My 1/48 scale electric model weighs in at 25 pounds.

The real deal tipped the scales at 772250 lbs with a tender weighing in at 436500 lbs for a combined "curb weight" of 1208750 lbs.

That is better than 600 tons boys...

There is exactly one of these left that can be fired. There was a plan to get it back on the road until it was realized that modern rails can not take the weight.
 
Awesome, in the very most literal sense of the word.
You have a set of Lionel, then?
 
Yah... About $75,000 worth all considered. Been collecting since 1958 after all. Some of the stuff I have goes back to the 1930s... The "Pre War" era as opposed to the "Post War" stuff and the "Modern" stuff.

All of my operating locomotives are radio controlled via TMCC (Train Master Command and Control) with sound effects plus, I have all of the turnouts (switches) on TMCC as well. All of it can be ran from a desktop or, for that matter, a laptop. My "Post War" locomotives just sit. Too valuable to run, these days. Way too much fun when I was a kid.

Power wise, I use a pair of 275 Watt "ZW" transformers to run the mains with several other transformers dedicated to the accessories, turnouts, lights and that sort of stuff.

All told, about 1 kilo watt of power on the layout. Which, as far as this hobby goes, is small potatoes. I have a friend, back in Ohio, that is running very near to 3 KW of power on his layout. He built an outbuilding on his property to hold the layout. If memory serves, the building is in the 50' x 100' range. Maybe bigger...

Track Voltage is 19 VAc so.... That means that I am delivering around 14.5 Amps to the main lines.

Not bad for "toy" trains, eh?
 
Just a question here but what is the ballpark cost to put a small turbo( if I did all the labor,minus the tune) on a 99 4.0?

Bryce may contradict me on this, so take with a large grain of salt..

How much labor are you planning on doing yourself? The Boostwerks manifold is very nice but will run you $800 all by itself if you are not fabricating a manifold. Also that doesn't include rebuilding the downstream exhaust routing.

Components. Figure around $1k for the turbo unless you can find one used, a couple hundred for the various piping pieces and bypass / blowoff valve, and around $350 for even the simplest piggyback fuel and injection controller. Bigger injectors (if you use them) are typically about $150 for the set. Gauges vary depending on how much you want to spend, the AEM digital gauges run about $180 each (the AFR gauge with UEGO is worth the money) but you can get analog ones for cheaper. Round some for other miscellaneous hardware.
 
I will chime in here on turbochargers as I like them for specific applications.

Firstly, allow me to say that it is suicide to install any sort of compressor that has not been completely rebuilt.

OK, off of the soap box...

In the case of a turbocharger installation, you need to provide two extra mechanical modifications to the engine. The first being a supply line of engine oil pressure and the second being a hole punched into the oil pan for the turbine to drain into.

Neither modification is earth shattering but... They must be done. No choice.

In the past, I have elected to install oil pressure accumulators into vehicles I have equipped with turbochargers. Why? To provide an oil supply when the engine is shut off. It takes a bit of time for the turbine to spool down and, IMO, giving it an oil supply greatly prolongs the life of the bearings.

At the very least, any turbocharged engine should be allowed to idle for a minute or so prior to being turned off to allow the turbine to slow. Bearing life here...

IMO...

Given what we ask our vehicles to do (crawl around the rocks at low engine speeds) a supercharger makes more sense as it provides boost right off of idle whereas you need significantly more engine speed to develop boost with a turbocharger.

Now, if you only need the boost at highway speed (i.e. towing etc) then a turbocharger makes sense. Otherwise, a supercharger is preferred as it produces boost across the engine engine speed range.

For the record, I installed my first "custom" turbocharger setup in 1972. The vehicle was a 1971 Datsun 240Z and we did a "blow through" installation. The fellow had already replaced the stock twin SU carb setup with triple Webers. It was just a matter of rejetting the carbs and adding in a boost controlled fuel pressure regulator. As the carbs were in a box, under pressure, the fuel pressure had to be raised to prevent the fuel from attempting to flow back out of the carbs... Embarrassing when the engine shuts off due to lack of fuel.

Today, we would use a "draw through" installation and the fuel pressure regulator is not needed. Also, with a draw through installation, a blow off valve is not required either. The reason is pretty straight forward, when you cut the throttle, the boost is also cut as the compressor's intake is promptly strangled. Same as a supercharger with the difference being that a supercharger requires a bypass valve (also called a recirculation valve).

Quick definitions:

Blow through = The throttle body or carburetor is placed into a box with seals on the fuel line and all linkages. The entire box is pressurized by the compressor. Requires a fuel pressure controller to be installed. Boost lag is experienced due to the box volume. Less lag with a supercharger...

Draw through = The throttle body or carburetor is located to the intake side of the compressor instead of the discharge side of the compressor. No fuel pressure modifications required.

IMO, draw through is the best way to go.

As a matter of fact here, my installation is capable of generating full boost (8 pounds here, 9,6 pounds sea level) at around 1500 rpm. IMO, this performance will never be matched by a turbocharger.
 
FWIW, the turbos I'm familiar with (on a professional basis) are from Volvos, 94+ model years, on 1.8 - 2.5 liter engines. These turbos, being cooled by engine coolant & lubed by engine oil, very rarely fail. They are driven hard and put away wet, nobody ever idles them to cool them down in the driveway, etc. In fact, liquid-cooled turbos were an innovation targeted specifically towards keeping the bearings happy in typical-driver (ignoramus) households.
Makes sense to rebuild a compressor but then, I've installed or seen installed by co-workers at least half a dozen turbos that were used & dont' recall any issues. Best practices are to rebuild, for sure - but plenty of used parts have plenty of miles left in them. Just depends on miles, service & luck.
 
Well... I will be the first in line to admit that I am completely AR when it comes to reliability. Any compressor is a show stopper if it fails. To that end, I will be rebuilding my Sprintex compressor when it hits 80,000 miles. Sprintex says it will run to 100,000 but, a rebuild at 80k miles will be cheap and remove most chances of early failure.

Speaking of early failures... The primary reason for failure is over tightening the drive belt. I tension my belt this way. Get it close and goose the engine whilst in park. This brings up the boost and, if the belt is loose, it will complain. I then tighten the belt until the complaints just stop. I figure that this is the minimum acceptable level. Then a road test to be completely certain it is just tight enough.

IMO, all of the accessories will last longer with less belt tension applied.

So, sure you can rely on luck, I choose to rely on rebuilds. My choice, your choice, it matters not as both have adherents. I have found that the overwhelming majority of XJ owner's belong to the luck side. The cost containment side which is why Sprintex dropped the XJ kit from the product line. Too many complaints about the cost. Which is funny when you consider that kits from Whipple and Kenne Bell run closer to $6,000 than not. Even at the original list price of $4,000, Sprintex was giving them away.

Relatively speaking that is.

Forced Induction is not for everyone. If spending money makes you break out in a cold sweat, stay far, far, far away from FI. In addition to the compressor, there is a set of injectors to be installed (new, not used...), a re-manufactured intake manifold as well as the F/IC of choice.

None of this is cheap. But, I will be willing to say that once you drive an XJ that has a compressor on it, you will never want to drive one that does not have a compressor. We are not talking about blistering performance that rips your head off of your shoulders, just performance that completely tames the lifted XJ. On an otherwise stock XJ, the results are close to the "rip your head off" end of the spectrum.

When I had my local Dealership install the Transgo shift kit, they were astounded by the driveability. Their exact quote was "It does not drive like any XJ we have ever driven". Beyond impressed, astounded would be the better descriptor.
 
I am going to take this opportunity to point out that Superchargers are not like any other mechanical part you pull out at the JY with the exception of Turbochargers.

If, for example, you are going to do the WJ steering mod, you pull the knuckles off of the donor WJ and have a reasonable expectation that the used knuckles will work just fine. Same thing goes for pretty much every other mechanical part you can pull out of the yard.

Until, that is, we get to both Turbochargers and Superchargers. It is impossible to just look at a compressor and divine it's operational capabilities. Unless there is massively obvious damage, it is just flat impossible to judge the part by visual means alone.

Unfortunately, this issue just reared it's head with SolarBell's build. The installation itself is a marvel of stuffing components under the hood. His is, after all, the only build out there that has everything neatly tucked under the hood. A minor trim on one support piece was all that was required to get it to fit. Nothing short of brilliant.

But. The compressor let him down. It looked OK and failed to perform anyway.

Over time, dirt and oil will work their way into the compressor. This is an inevitability. The dirt sticks to the rotors where it slightly drags on the housing prior to being scraped off. This causes the housing to enlarge and the compressors ability to pump degrades as the rotor to housing clearance opens. As the compressor ages out of service, the bearings wear and that allows the rotors to shift again causing damage to the housings.

If you are in a JY and find a vehicle that still has it's compressor in place, looks pretty good for the most part... Then the most likely reason the vehicle was scrapped was the compressor. Most folk when faced with the costs of a new compressor will scrap out the vehicle in lieu of replacing the compressor.

This is not the best way to go as you can get a professionally remanufactured compressor for under $700 plus the core charge.

Turbochargers have their own issue which are mainly the bearings and impeller damage. The principle is the same. Used compressors should be viewed as a source of a core to be sent off to a rebuilder.

Personally, I run new parts. Yes, they are expensive but, I will get years of issue free service from the part.

IMO exchanging the used compressor with another, and then another, and then another... Well, it costs more monies in the long run than just installing a new or remanufactured compressor would have in the first place.

One final opinion here. Every used compressor out there is being sold for a reason. It was removed from the donor vehicle for a reason.

And the reason is not that it is in perfect operating condition.

Just my .02...
 
You, Sir, do not have a Jeep 4 litre under your hood... Using an engine that is cross flow construction sort of changes everything, yes?

I should really like to take a ride in that beasty of yours. As I have stated on more than one occasion, the degree of professionalism displayed in the build is second to none.

For what is is worth, I am totally impressed.
 
Back
Top