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Do you fly RC aircraft or drones? Please read:

87manche, it is clear that you are passionate about keeping the FAA out of drones (which I agree with), but how can you expect to educate someone who just goes and orders a drone off of Amazon or something about the different types of airspace? I would hope that if someone went and got a "My first drone kit" from bjoehandley, that it would come with at least some literature and verbal instructions about flying neighborly, so I don't think those people are the issue.

the big name manufacturers all include the literature in the box. After christmas the AMA and AUVSI held a seminar in celveland at the expo center to attempt to educate people that just unboxed their new toy.

straight from china, not so much.

The issue at hand is that the ease of operation of a quad makes it so you no longer have to seek out the assistance of the existing community to learn to fly. It's great that they're easy to fly and anyone can do it, that's the same reason that they will eventually cause trouble.

I answered the questions in the first post. They are no more dangerous than any other model aircraft ever has been, but pilots that don't have any idea of the existing regulations are going to force the FAA's hand in enforcing them much more aggressively.

and yes, I'm a grumpy 65 year old man in a 33 year old body.
 
I'm a grumpy 65 year old man in a 33 year old body.
I'm a grumpy 35 year old man in a 65 year old body.
 
Sounds to me like your hobby outgrew it's lack of legal restrictions. You keep mentioning how easy it is for these "morons" to destroy modern aviation as we know it, but you seem to have a problem with enacting real laws to do somethinf about it.

We all wish people would just "not be morons", but that's not a replacement for laws. And I hate un needed laws more than anyone....


Times change
 
How about required drone insurance incase one falls from the sky and does some property damage or even bodily harm?
 
Sounds to me like your hobby outgrew it's lack of legal restrictions. You keep mentioning how easy it is for these "morons" to destroy modern aviation as we know it, but you seem to have a problem with enacting real laws to do somethinf about it.

We all wish people would just "not be morons", but that's not a replacement for laws. And I hate un needed laws more than anyone....


Times change

Yes, laws will fix it, just like gun laws have eliminated violent deaths by guns.
 
Sounds to me like your hobby outgrew it's lack of legal restrictions. You keep mentioning how easy it is for these "morons" to destroy modern aviation as we know it, but you seem to have a problem with enacting real laws to do somethinf about it.

We all wish people would just "not be morons", but that's not a replacement for laws. And I hate un needed laws more than anyone....


Times change

You seem to lack the basic comprehension that the regulations and laws already exist, they have for 30 years. I have repeatedly stated that.

the flyer posted above is nothing more than a statement by the USFS reiterating those regulations.

More laws will not solve the issue.
It's also likely that if the FAA decides they're going to start enforcing those sorts of things that the only people affected would be thoes that fly at chartered club fields. You know, the people most likely to not be idiots.

it is very much like gun control. Those of us that are responsible will jump through the hoops, the people that want to do dumb things will ignore it all anyway.

So the only option is to attempt to educate new users on safely operating model aircraft.

my initial response was perhaps a little harsh, but honestly I'm growing tired of the debate, and attempting to educate people that are juts going to make assumptions and do as they please anyhow.
 
You seem to lack the basic comprehension that the regulations and laws already exist, they have for 30 years. I have repeatedly stated that.

the flyer posted above is nothing more than a statement by the USFS reiterating those regulations.

More laws will not solve the issue.
It's also likely that if the FAA decides they're going to start enforcing those sorts of things that the only people affected would be thoes that fly at chartered club fields. You know, the people most likely to not be idiots.

it is very much like gun control. Those of us that are responsible will jump through the hoops, the people that want to do dumb things will ignore it all anyway.

So the only option is to attempt to educate new users on safely operating model aircraft.

my initial response was perhaps a little harsh, but honestly I'm growing tired of the debate, and attempting to educate people that are juts going to make assumptions and do as they please anyhow.

How about registration, license(education and classes required to obtain such a license) and also insurance incase of any accidents, for all drones.
 
How about registration, license(education and classes required to obtain such a license) and also insurance incase of any accidents, for all drones.

I'm not sure I an make this any clearer for you, but let's try again.

the FAA already deems model aircraft as "aircraft", they make no distinction between us and a cessna.

they have simply chosen not to enforce the myriad of regulations because we're a "low risk" user of the airspace.

If models become "high risk" the FAA has the authority to enforce any and all regulations that apply to "aircraft"

So I'll repeat myself one more time.
The regulations already exist, they're simply not being enforced.
If dumb people do dumb things the FAA will start enforcing them, so yes, at that point we get treated like full scale aircraft and pilots, that includes inspections, registrations and licensing.

clear?
 
I'm not sure I an make this any clearer for you, but let's try again.

the FAA already deems model aircraft as "aircraft", they make no distinction between us and a cessna.

they have simply chosen not to enforce the myriad of regulations because we're a "low risk" user of the airspace.

If models become "high risk" the FAA has the authority to enforce any and all regulations that apply to "aircraft"

So I'll repeat myself one more time.
The regulations already exist, they're simply not being enforced.
If dumb people do dumb things the FAA will start enforcing them, so yes, at that point we get treated like full scale aircraft and pilots, that includes inspections, registrations and licensing.

clear?

So, you are saying how dangerous these drones are and how much of a risk they are to low flying aircraft. People are already doing "dumb" things with them causing problems such as the fire fighter planes and yet there is still just as you put a "gentlemen's agreement". I see a problem with all of this.

What do we have to do, wait until a plane is taken out by a drone? Also, who says it will only be "dumb people doing dumb things"? What happens when a perfectly capable drone flyer has some sort of failure or sudden battery lose and the thing falls onto some ones head? What are the odds of a bird hitting a drone causing it to crash? What about radio interference causing lose of control?

Then we can also think about extremes. What if someone decided to get a group of people together and I don't know fly 10-20 of these things purposely around airports? Do we move forward knowing what drones are capable of and ignore them until something happens and then react?

Back to the topic at hand, I would think that if drones are such a risk to planes fighting fires that the planes will be grounded at the mere presence of the drones in the area. Grounding planes meant to fight a fire would then let the fire burn and cause unknown damage and lose of life. Or, if a plane is taken out by a drone causing it to crash and spew jet fuel onto an already burning wild fire. All to which we have no rules or regulations being enforced or anyway to enforce because there's no way to tie a drone to a person operating it. I don't see a problem with dumb people who will maybe do dumb things, I see a serious lack of regulation and way to enforce.

What will the cost of actually treating drones as aircraft be when requiring license, registration, insurance and flight plans do to the hobby? I imagine the current drone community has no interest in paying for all these regulations so instead they will try to point the finger at "dumb people doing dumb things".

I was all for being in the camp of these drones aren't that big of a threat to fire fighting planes but 87manche has made a compelling case other wise, regulate them back into the ground :nono: .
 
first of all, not all models are "drones"

that word annoys the shit out of me.

secondly, the community policing itself has worked for over 50 years. AMA members have liaility insurance, that's the primary reason you join.

If the FAA decides to they will destroy the hobby. I haev already told you that.

I also said that there will people that ignore the regulations, and that only the responsible users will abide. No different than any other law.

if operated within the guidelines set forth they are not a danger to aircraft or population.

It's only when uneducated people operate them over population or in the vicinity of aircraft, but since I've already shown you the regulations regarding not doing both of those things I don't understand how you think more regulation will help.

It's become quite apparent to me that you're a moron that likes to argue for the simple sake of being a contrarian. So I'm done here.
 
first of all, not all models are "drones"

that word annoys the shit out of me...

I also said that there will people that ignore the regulations, and that only the responsible users will abide. No different than any other law.

if operated within the guidelines set forth they are not a danger to aircraft or population.

It's only when uneducated people operate them over population or in the vicinity of aircraft, but since I've already shown you the regulations regarding not doing both of those things I don't understand how you think more regulation will help. ...

Nate, I would go a bit further and state that most model aircraft are not drones, they are model aircraft; mainly because most are controllable up to the visual range of the operator.

IMO, Quads with cameras for operator interface and auto stabilizing features more fit into the Drone category.

And it appears the FAA has been involved for years for the higher end units http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/02/15/faa-drone-rule/23440469/

I agree that the problem is that people who are uneducated in the AMA rules are buying them and using them where they should not. We have a model airplane park near here. I have seen a variety of aircraft there, including helis, but no quads. I think if you ask the average new Model RC or Quad owner what the AMA is they would say it had to do with alcohol avoidance :gee:

Now if these were sold by the local hobby store (Of which there are very few of now days), they would tend to educate the consumer (because it's their hobby too). But amazon, ebay, and all points east don't care as long as you buy the product.

I think if the Model Aircraft hobby would make its presence known, more potential buys and existing owners would be aware of it's presence, and that there are gentleman agreements for the use of their new toy. Perhaps it would be possible to work with on-line vendors to put ads in the sellers promotional materials/websites.
 
it's a particular problem in a fire fighting aircraft because they're flying in airspace that's not the normal domain



How low do you think that DC-10 is? I'd say it's low enough for his massive balls to scrape the ground.
He eats something into a turbine at that altitude while maneuvering that aggressively and everyone has a really bad day.
 
How low do you think that DC-10 is? I'd say it's low enough for his massive balls to scrape the ground.

I wonder how they combat all the fire risk of the sparks caused by those balls of steel scraping the ground?

Still photos look like plane crashes! Here's one from the other day (where, yet again, airborne operations were halted by hobby craft).

11705276_10202723440125954_7549088644242803798_n.jpg
 
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/07/10/wildfire-drones/29973515/

Here's one from USA today, wasn't too hard to find, so I don't know why Sequoia didn't. But those people flying their multirotors into that.................idjits, just idjits. I started warning customers more about these kinds of things in the last few weeks since this thread started. Not only could this cause a backlash on the R/C Air community, but it could even come back to those of us who tend to stay ground bound, like myself as well as the remaining hobby shops, their owners and employees.
 
the uses are nearly endless.

but morons will screw this up.
I found an article that said the last guy was a commercial photographer.

He should know better than most, but apparently getting that shot was more important than firefighting operations and the potential lives lost to him.

I will reiterate my stance.
If you fly your quad in the vicinity of aircraft or over people just so you can get some video footage you are a self absorbed prick that values your wants over the safety of others.
 
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