Diesel + auto?

[Amund2]

Hi,

recently got a bargain on a 1994 XJ 2.1 TD (european model only? Engine supposedly made by Renault) with a broken engine (4th pushrod bearing dead, probably dead crankshaft too).

Now I want to build the "ultimate" (for me) daily driver. I drive a long way to work, half of it is highway and half is traffic. So I want low consumtion, and I want an automatic transmission. If the thing is quick that would be a bonus.

I also need to stay within the weight limits of other engines delivered in the XJ, so please don't say Cummins.

2.7 CRD with tranny + transfer from a WJ would be so cool... but I don't know if they can be bought for a reasonable price, and if it's even remotely possible to fix the electronics (I have basic electronic skills, but if everything is tied up to dome lights, stereo and theft protection it's just not funny)

Other options include the VM 2.5 TD delivered in XJs from 1995, I know this engine uses the AX15 box, maybe it could fit an AW4 (with a custom converter with lower stall speed of course)

The 2.1 uses the same gear box as the 2.5 gas engine AFAIK, maybe this coudl be fitted to an auto from a 2.5 gas ?


Any other semi-modern turbo diesels that will fit any of the jeep autos, or come with a complete drivetrain with transfer (left-hand front diff) or worst case, just RWD ? Ideas appreciated, esp. stuff that can be found in Europe (Merc? BMW?)

 

[Chancer]

OK, I don't know much, but this much I do know...

You might have the VM engine - they were standard in all deisel XJs in the UK, afaik. You'll also find the same engine in Land Rovers, Discoveries, Rover 600's etc, so there should be no problem getting another if you went down that route. Consumption is tolerable (25-30mpg - I can't convert that to km/l just yet...) and they're OK apart from having to have the head gasket replaced regularly.

The 2.5 petrol came with the AX5, which isn't tough enough to take the torque of a 4l or a 2.5VM, but the AW4 is bombproof.

You might be able to find a VM from another car with auto on it - an old Disco springs to mind. If you live near Bergen I suggest you get on a boat and buy one from a UK scrapyard!

If you do come to the UK, 4 litres running on LPG are popular, but I don't know if there are many bilgas stations in Norway - I think they're located around the major cities.

Lykke til, and have some Utsira sild for me - I think back on my 2 years in Trondheim with great fondness...

 

[Chancer]

One more thing I found out: Ssang Yong Mussos had Merc CRD engines in them, which might be one avenue worth exploring. Those POS must pretty much all be in scrapyards by now...

 

[Amund2]

Takk!

Great tips, I didn't think of the UK scrapper route.. tried Sweden + Denmark so far.

You are mixing the engines up (or maybe I was unclear), I currently have a bad 2,1 TD, which is a Renault engine (used 1987-1994), it uses AX5. The 2,5 TD Vm engine came in 1995, and uses AX15s, but AFAIK no Jeep (not ZJ either) came with diesel + auto.

Do you have more info on the RR diesels, hp, what auto box, how does they feel? wiring diagrams, which year to look for?

Thanks,
Amund

 

[bajacalal]

I have heard the Renault diesels don't bolt up to the transmission bell housing on the trans from the other models. A 4.0 AW4 will have an AMC bolt pattern, the 2.1td a Renault one. The AW4 has a removable bell housing so maybe that could be swapped with the AX series transmissions, I don't know. Otherwise you would have to fabricate an adaptor or fit a driveline from another diesel automatic car. Here in the US that means an Merc. Benz, someone here on the forum did that, search "diesel mj" but said it required tons of custom fabrication.

Interesting, I diddn't even think Europeans prefered "slush boxes" as we call them I love my manual 5 speed XJ.

 

[Chancer]

I don't know much about LR/ RR engines, apart from them having VM engines. I suggest you try hunting around the LR websites - they are a right bunch of beardy, oil soaked buggers, so their tech knowledge on the crossover capabilities will be pretty good. You could do worse than try Difflock.com to start with.

I reckon that it should be possible to bolt an AW4 to a 2.5VM, simply because it's possible to have both the 4.0l with AW4 or AX15 - it might require some tinkering with the bellhousing, but I would think that it should be possible...

As for other deisel engines in a jeep, well, that woudl be one for advance tech I imagine! I heard of one guy who swapped his RR deisel for a Mitsubishi engine, and there are certainly adaptor kits in the UK for things like that, so it might be possible to stick one in a Jeep if it's got the engine mounts in the right place for a VM...

Personally, I agree with bajacalal - 5 speeds are great. I'm wanting to go the other way and continue using a 4 litre with a stick. Hmm, perhaps we can work something out?!

 

[87manche]

there was also a chap that put a mercedes diesel driveline in his MJ. It's in modified tech, the thread was brought back up about a month ago.
mercedes diesel should get you there in the search box.

 

[Chancer]

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=23884&highlight=manual+auto+swap

vaer sa godt...

 

[Vince]

There was a WG model produced briefly in 2001 with a 3.1L diesel engine and auto transmission. My dealer lent me one when our Voyager was in for warranty work. The 3.1 wasn't successful and was superceded by the more powerful 2.7CRD in 2002. I'm not certain, but I think it may have even had a 242 transfercase. It was memorable for me it was the first diesel auto I had ever driven.

Don't forget that the AW4 is a Toyota transmission. It may be easier to find out if the transmission has been used in other applications. I know that it was used with a Lexus V8 and a Toyota Supra.

 

[BrettM]

Don't forget that the AW4 is a Toyota transmission. It may be easier to find out if the transmission has been used in other applications. I know that it was used with a Lexus V8 and a Toyota Supra.

The Toyota version of the Aisin transmission has been used behind Lexus V8s as well as Toyota Tundras, Sequoias, Supras, Tacomas, T100s, 4runners, and a handful more. It also has been used my Mitsubishi, Volvo, Isuzu, and probably some others I'm forgetting at the moment. However I don't believe it has ever been put behind a diesel from the factory.

Your 3 main concerns will be torque convertor, bellhousing and electronics. A custom torque convertor deals with the first, but at what price? An AX15 bellhousing may be possible to modify, but I believe any solution will require a good bit of machine work. I'm not familiar with the diesel you're planning to use, but getting the electronics and TCU to work with it may prove challenging (or you could just manual shift it).

My biggest question though is why? This sounds like it will be getting expensive quickly, how many thousands of miles (or km) will you have to drive to make up the difference between just going with the tried and true 4.0/AW4?

 

[Root Moose]

Your 3 main concerns will be torque convertor, bellhousing and electronics. A custom torque convertor deals with the first, but at what price?

FWIW a friend of mine in Colorado adapted a VW TD (1.9) to a 200R4. Or was it 60 deg 700R4? Anyway, he had a US company (in PA?) make up a custom torque converter for the application for a very reasonable amount (considering). I wanna say ~$200USD. He had the full option of ratio and stall speed if I remember correctly.

If this gets beyond the dreaming stage I can get the contact info for the contracted company if there is interest.

HTH

 

[Amund2]

I guess many of you are right. 1. Too much work and 2. I'd have to circle the earth 3 times to save the costs in fuel economy. The question as to why I am pondering this is that the XJ I have is a fairly new, fairly well kept specimen, it's got a 2,1 TD with a bad crankshaft and I thought maybe I could put something more exciting in there instead of dumping a few grand into the 86 hp 2,1. I was thinking a complete drivetrain with matched autp and transfer box, the 2,5 TD to VM was just a crazy though, when thinking about it I do not assume that the 2,5 TD has the same bolt pattern as the 4.0, I'd rather think they redid the bellhousing for the gearbox. Same with AW4, even though it's the "same" box I assume it is delivered with a different bellhousing and converter/flexplate setup to match the 4.0 compared to how they come in toyotas.

I don't need another 4.0, I already got one you see. It's a tad on the thirsty side for driving to work, and I want to strip it down, redo a lot and keep building it as soon as I get something else to commute with.

Thanks for all ideas though, the 1,9 TDI would be really cool, feel free to PM me with the contact info Root Moose, if you have it handy.

- Amund