Check this out...Clayton rear coil set up

[Beezil]

You couldn't put the springs much farther out as the tires would be into the springs on flex.

right.....that's why i said this:

and you might not even be able to get away with it on the oem axle width.

a swaybar would help, but then it begs the question "what's the point?"

I would also be interested seeing a two-view plan drawing of the link geometry to see if there is a point of the four link other than just locating the axle.

 

[XJWheelie]

FNG here

I'm the newby when it comes to anything more high speed than longer leaf spring shackles, so I've got a few questions here.

For starters is there a minimum lift that you need for there to be any advantage to long arms in the front and most especially a set-up in the rear like this one to replace the rear leaf springs?

I'm assuming that this is done for increased articulation, is this correct?

Finally, is there an idiot's guide that explains why you would go to the trouble of doing this?

Thanks to all,
Robert

 

[csudman]

I'm the newby when it comes to anything more high speed than longer leaf spring shackles, so I've got a few questions here.

For starters is there a minimum lift that you need for there to be any advantage to long arms in the front and most especially a set-up in the rear like this one to replace the rear leaf springs?

I'm assuming that this is done for increased articulation, is this correct?

Finally, is there an idiot's guide that explains why you would go to the trouble of doing this?

Thanks to all,
Robert

Long arms really start helping after about 4-5 inches of lift.

In the rear, a properly built 4 link will allow u to increase your anitsquat. Efferctivly givin you more traction. It can allow for more articulation. But at a higher cost than leaf springs. And leafs can be made to work quite well too.

God of Suspensions

Links for Dummies

Read each thread 4 times. Then ask ques. I'm still learning myself.

 

[BrettM]

Beez, it looks like there is plenty of room to put in 1/4 elip. with his arms, and he would most likely be willing to sell the arms without the springs.

All around it looks pretty good, the only big problem I see is how low the rear crossmember hangs (that's one of the things I really like about Beezils). I would like to see a sideview of that XJ to see how low it actually hangs...

 

[Beezil]

I still think the only way to obtain EFFECTIVE 4 link geometry on an xj platform trying to clear 35's and up on moderate lift, is to cut link tunnels in the floor.....

without getting the uppers up high and paralell, I can't see how you can make good use of anything....

I haven't seen many plan view drawings of uncut cherokees though, I'd be interested in seeing some....if its possible without making too many comprimises, cool! I can't see how it is possible, therefore, i don't understand the point of ditching your leaves if you aren't ready to go "full awn"....

cause its been proven, that moderate lift with flat leaves is AMaZINGLY effective......

course, people do different things for different reasons....

where's max?

i know he's out there, waiting to knock me around.

 

[MaXJohnson]

I still think the only way to obtain EFFECTIVE 4 link geometry on an xj platform trying to clear 35's and up on moderate lift, is to cut link tunnels in the floor.....

without getting the uppers up high and paralell, I can't see how you can make good use of anything....

I haven't seen many plan view drawings of uncut cherokees though, I'd be interested in seeing some....if its possible without making too many comprimises, cool! I can't see how it is possible, therefore, i don't understand the point of ditching your leaves if you aren't ready to go "full awn"....

cause its been proven, that moderate lift with flat leaves is AMaZINGLY effective......

course, people do different things for different reasons....

where's max?

i know he's out there, waiting to knock me around.

Did somebody say "Beezil"???

a properly done coil setup with perform better that a properly done leaf setup because:

coils weigh less
coil & links allow for more design flexibility
coils with a swayl bar is more tunable

Your junk is well thought out and your craftsmanship is second to none(except the welding :scared: ). I'd love to see you make a timed run up rockface. But, IMO, it goes too far in the buggy direction for the average XJ owner who still wants a daily driver with a back seat and room for camp crap.

and,

too many parabolic curves can make you dizzy :looser:

 

[Beezil]

except the welding

listen boogerflap, my welding is juuusssstttt fine!. ask hinkley!

now, its when i FORGET to weld that's been a problem!

 

[Goatman]

I'm the newby when it comes to anything more high speed than longer leaf spring shackles, so I've got a few questions here.

For starters is there a minimum lift that you need for there to be any advantage to long arms in the front and most especially a set-up in the rear like this one to replace the rear leaf springs?

I'm assuming that this is done for increased articulation, is this correct?

Finally, is there an idiot's guide that explains why you would go to the trouble of doing this?

Thanks to all,
Robert

Still have never seen an advantage to long arms. Especially don't like the Clayton's because the lower control arm mounts hang down below the frame. Better arm angles are a real good thing, but the goal should be better control arm angles with a minimul loss of ground clearance.

The purpose to doing this in the back is purely uniqueness. No one has come up with an XJ rear coil set up that works better (or as good) as the leaves do. Funny, people just want things different. Later model 4Runner guys put leaves in the rear, some XJ guys want coils in the rear. The combination of articulation, stability, and weight carrying ability of the front coil/rear leaf design is one of the things that makes the XJ a generally good platform and performer. Tweek it to it's best performance and run it. Everything else is just for fun and to be different.....not to gain performance.

"Finally, is there an idiot's guide that explains why you would go to the trouble of doing this?" Love it.......very well said.

 

[David Taylor]

Richard, with work the longarm mounts can be tucked up high. No loss of ground clearance, nice control arm angles and dare I say a nice ride. Plus should you have to back of an obstacle they slide with out hiting any mounts.
I know this is a dead horse but I had to take my shot at it.

 

[Beezil]

Richard, with work the longarm mounts can be tucked up high. No loss of ground clearance, nice control arm angles and dare I say a nice ride. Plus should you have to back of an obstacle they slide with out hiting any mounts.
I know this is a dead horse but I had to take my shot at it.

david, welcome to naxja, where the horse is evil, and cannot be destroyed.

 

[XJWheelie]

So

So basically, from what I'm reading elsewhere and here, if I'm not going higher than 4" to 4.5" then I'm basically wasting my time worrying about all of this.

Does that sound like a resonable conclusion?!

 

[offroadman83]

Unless you wheel some pretty big rocks and really want the coil conversion, you are wasting your time. Many guys have kept their leaves and love them. Ask Goatman, Crash, Farmermatt, Jess, and many others whom I have forgotten (so sue me)--------Kyle

 

[JeepFreak21]

david, welcome to naxja, where the horse is evil, and cannot be destroyed.

:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:

Beez, you got some great quotes!

 

[Beezil]

So basically, from what I'm reading elsewhere and here, if I'm not going higher than 4" to 4.5" then I'm basically wasting my time worrying about all of this.

Does that sound like a resonable conclusion?!

nope, never read that.

things like four link conversions are a TON of work to do the RIGHT way, and in a lot of cases aren't executed properly do to the large amount of compromises you would have to make. thats my opinion on the matter anyway....

now thats a completely different story on the lift height consideration.......

if you are confused how to properly execute a 4.5" lift, don't do it yet, get some seat time, and learn a bit from the guys who have already been doen that road. no reason to rush into it....

know whadda mean?

 

[Goatman]

Richard, with work the longarm mounts can be tucked up high. No loss of ground clearance, nice control arm angles and dare I say a nice ride. Plus should you have to back of an obstacle they slide with out hiting any mounts.
I know this is a dead horse but I had to take my shot at it.

Hi Dave, nice to see you here.

My beef isn't particularly against long arms, it's against designs that do supposedly cool things with no regard for loss of ground clearance in the name of better performance, when really it's nothing more than trying to be cool. Long arm designs, like other things, are getting perfected, but some of them really suck in my view. I don't buy in to the theory that a long arm setup is automatically a good thing.

Same with a rear coil setup. I have nothing against one that is done properly and actually performs better than a good leaf setup. But, a well done rear leaf set up is extremely hard to beat, and not hard to do. Some guys run stock packs with 3 add-a-leafs or a 4" pack with 2 add-a-leafs, etc, and wonder why they ride rough and don't flex. Get a good set of leaves, set them up properly, and run them. It doesn't take much $$ to get a good working set of leaves. I've never bought an expensive set of leaves and mine work great. Some guys spent a few bucks on the Nationals and they work great. If some aren't happy with how their rear leaves are performing, start a thread and ask how to do it......we'll tell you. It's a whole lot easier and cheaper than putting in rear coils.

 

[Beezil]

Richard, you are the king of "anti-cool" mods.....

nice chop top by the way......

:laugh:

I will agree with you on leaves. I used to run a 10-leaf national pack that bones runs now.

IMHO, that is the BEST any cherokee of mine ever performed, without doing a ton of work to get it that way.

 

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

National leaf packs suck! I paid big bucks for a set way back when nobody made leaf packs for the XJ. It gave less lift than desired and sank ever since. I finally tossed half of it and went with the other half added to a Rusty's 4.5" pack. That combo worked ok. After that, I went to Dodge 1500 leaves with an extra leaf made from a cut off main leaf from another Dodge 1500 pack. Sounds stiff as hell, but seems to work ok for me. Hasn't sagged much anyway. Oh, I did have to make custom frame mounts, flip the things end for end, and am running a 2" block with them as well as their overload leaf. As for the Nationals, a local friend of mine had the same experience as me. SAG, SAG, SAG. Jeff

 

[Nay]

Hi Dave, nice to see you here.

My beef isn't particularly against long arms, it's against designs that do supposedly cool things with no regard for loss of ground clearance in the name of better performance, when really it's nothing more than trying to be cool. Long arm designs, like other things, are getting perfected, but some of them really suck in my view. I don't buy in to the theory that a long arm setup is automatically a good thing.

Quite right, but still misses the point to a degree if only because of over-generalization. Let's discuss what long arms primarily accomplish: a smooth ride and generally unrestricted flex on a tall lift. They have tradeoffs. I don't have long arms to be cool. I could care less what the control arms are as long as it works for what I need. It would have been a lot more cool to save a grand and take a nice trip somewhere.

However, I carry my family around with me on wheeling trips, and smooth is good. Real good. The onroad handling and ride is good. My needs go way beyond an obsession with ground clearance. The alternative would have been a ton of custom work or lowering my XJ, which would have cost a lot more clearance than at the control arms...and lowering would have cost more money than the long arms. Not many of us really need as much crap as we have on our XJ's, but just about every one of us likes to pull up at the trailhead with a big rig, and long arms are just about the easiest way to allow a big rig without a lot of customization.

That is the competitive poison of these boards. There is no technical wheeling reason for me to have an 8" lift. I could probably get by with 4" and 32's for the most difficult trails I run. So I'm not having clearance problems with 8" of lift, 34's, and long arms, and a simple setup like Clayton's works just fine...the bigger question is why on earth did I overbuild my XJ, and why do I like it like this?

Nay

 

[Bryan C.]

the bigger question is why on earth did I overbuild my XJ, and why do I like it like this?

Nay

Good question. I guess we all want to have fun without breaking stuff when we wheel. If it looks cool to others when you are done, so be it.

I installed the Clayton's kit on my XJ because it is my daily driver and ride quality was my main concern, followed by the fact I have no fabrication skills or the equiptment to build my own set up. Yes it does hang down a little bit, but only time will tell if it will be an issue.

For the Clayton rear 4 link and coil conversion, I just wonder how much all that time and effort installing it will pay off on the trail, and what the on road manners are going to be. So where is the cat and muffler supposed to go anyway? The Jeep in the pic has it removed.

Bryan