• Welcome to the new NAXJA Forum! If your password does not work, please use "Forgot your password?" link on the log-in page. Please feel free to reach out to [email protected] if we can provide any assistance.

CA SMOG, HIGH NOx

I have been looking for the last couple hours for a colder plug for the 4.0 but haven't had much luck. I did see a thread on Jeepforum where people were saying the V8 grand cherokee plugs were a step colder direct bolt in..Autolite 3923.. but I'm not too sure about trying that. I am an NGK guy anyway and from what I can tell they don't make a colder plug. I believe I need fr6-1 but I don't think they make one. But if you get bored 5-90 I wouldn't mind if you checked for me.

If someone does find a colder plug please post parts numbers. I am going to smog on saturday and last time It passed NOX by a hair so I am a bit worried.

3923 is the correct plug for the 6-242, one step colder. I don't know the Champion, NGK, or Bosch number offhand, but I've run into this sort of thing before with Autolites, and I've been using Autolite plugs for a number of years (the final digit is the "heat range," and it's a direct relationship: lower number colder, higher number hotter.)
 
I believe I need fr6-1 but I don't think they make one. But if you get bored 5-90 I wouldn't mind if you checked for me.

If someone does find a colder plug please post parts numbers.

ZFR6F-11 is about as close to a 3923 I found a while back when someone else needed some-- I can't recall what made it "close" instead of "exact" though-- I'm getting old and tend to forget things.
 
Note from DJ
I’m not sure if this is the information that you are looking for or nor but hear it is.
The information below is from http://www.ngk.com/Default.asp
NGK FR5-1 & NKG ZFR5N Both have 14 mm thread size, 5/8” Hex =16mm, 3/4” Reach=19mm, Heat range 5 with V-Grooved Center Electrode.
But the FR5-1 is gaped at .035” or 0.9 mm. & theZFR5N is gaped at .040” or 1.02 mm.

NKG BKR6E 14 mm thread size, 5/8” Hex =16mm, 3/4” Reach=19mm, Heat range 6 with V-Grooved Center Electrode & gaped at .031” or 0.8 mm.
 
Thanks for the help guys.

I used the search filter on the site DJ posted up and I found two that are really close. Both have both an "extended metal shell" and an "extended projected tip" which most of the others with the same specs don't have

NGK PZFR6J-11 3586 these are a double platinum plug
NGK IZFR6K-11 6994 these are an iridium plug

They do not have a copper style plug that has both the extended tip and metal shell the stock replacement plugs have in a colder plug.

The specs on the stock plugs are:

14mm thread
19mm reach
5/8 hex size
gasket seal
resistor type

My hijack of this thread is over. Sorry Jeepsrock. Please post up your fix when you get your Jeep to pass.
 
I don't know anyone that has any good luck using double ( or 4) platinum tip electrode or iridium spark plugs on a jeep engine!!! In fact there has been negative feedback on both FWIW.

The double platinum NGK number you posted, is a single tip ground (not 2 or 4 ground tip) and it sounds newer (laser welded tip, two layers of platinum?), so it just may work?

I have used single ground tip platinum Bosch and Autolite plugs for years on my Renix jeeps.
 
Last edited:
I ran all of jeepsrock emissions number through a lambda calculator to find A/f ratio and they all come out to 14.6 to 14.7. That is good right? This is the calculator I used...http://pwrautomotive.com/lambda.htm

That means that all sensor and stuff are in good shape because it isn't running lean right?

So what does that leave for options for problems? Too hot plug or timing off? Maybe check the crank position sensor?

I believe I did see the thread EcoMike was talking about where they had to swap stock size tires on and it passed no problem. They though it was because the big tires made the engine work too hard.

P.S. I tried to smog mine this morning and failed NOX misserably. My numbers were almost exactly what jeepsrock had on his third test.
 
What comes out of the tail pipe is an average result of sorts. The actual exhaust coming out of the engine has a wave pulse (and cycle) that has peaks and valley concentration waves and a temperature wave cycle as well, and the Cat converter cleans up the remains, so what the tail pipe sniffer sees is not what is going on in the engine, or at the CAT converter. Also the ECU/PCM cycles the AFR up and down based on the load, and the O2 sensor data on the prior combustion results to determine the next injector pulse. It is all time dependent. Then add in the VARIABLE scrubbing effects of the exhaust header, and it gets VERY COMPLEX and dynamic!!!

http://www.bearriverconverters.com/data/CatOpp.pdf

http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Miscellaneous/exhausttheory.htm

http://www.quickhonda.net/exhaust.htm
 
[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]The Exhaust Pulse

To gain a more complete understanding of how mufflers and headers do their job, we must be familiar with the dynamics of the exhaust pulse itself. Exhaust gas does not come out of the engine in one continuous stream. Since exhaust valves open and close, exhaust gas will flow, then stop, and then flow again as the exhaust valve opens. The more cylinders you have, the closer together these pulses run.
Keep in mind that for a "pulse" to move, the leading edge must be of a higher pressure than the surrounding atmosphere. The "body" of a pulse is very close to ambient pressure, and the tail end of the pulse is lower than ambient. It is so low, in fact, that it is almost a complete vacuum! The pressure differential is what keeps a pulse moving. A good Mr. Wizard experiment to illustrate this is a coffee can with the metal ends cut out and replaced with the plastic lids. Cut a hole in one of the lids, point it toward a lit candle and thump on the other plastic lid. What happens? The candle flame jumps, then blows out! The "jump" is caused by the high-pressure bow of the pulse we just created, and the candle goes out because the trailing portion of the pulse doesn't have enough oxygen-containing air to support combustion. Neat, huh?
Ok, now that we know that exhaust gas is actually a series of pulses, we can use this knowledge to propagate the forward-motion to the tailpipe. How? Ah, more of the engineering tricks we are so fond of come in to play here.
Just as Paula Abdul will tell you that opposites attract, the low pressure tail end of an exhaust pulse will most definitely attract the high-pressure bow of the following pulse, effectively "sucking" it along. This is what's so cool about a header. The runners on a header are specifically tuned to allow our exhaust pulses to "line up" and "suck" each other along! Whoa, bet you didn't know that! This brings up a few more issues, since engines rev at various speeds, the exhaust pulses don't always exactly line up. Thus, the reason for the Try-Y header, a 4-into-1 header, etc. Most Honda headers are tuned to make the most horsepower in high RPM ranges; usually 4,500 to 6,500 RPM. A good 4-into-1 header, such as the ones sold by Gude, are optimal for that high winding horsepower you've always dreamed of. What are exhaust manifolds and stock exhaust systems good for? Besides a really cheap boat anchor? If you think about it, you'll realize that since stock exhausts are so good at restricting that they'll actually ram the exhaust pulses together and actually make pretty darn good low-end torque! Something to keep in mind, though, is that even though an OEM exhaust may make gobs of low-end torque, they are not the most efficient setup overall, since your engine has to work so hard to expel those exhaust gasses.


[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Pipe Sizing

We've seen quiet a few "experienced" racers tell people that a bigger exhaust is a better exhaust. Hahaha… NOT.
As discussed earlier, exhaust gas is hot. And we'd like to keep it hot throughout the exhaust system. Why? The answer is simple. Cold air is dense air, and dense air is heavy air. We don't want our engine to be pushing a heavy mass of exhaust gas out of the tailpipe. An extremely large exhaust pipe will cause a slow exhaust flow, which will in turn give the gas plenty of time to cool off en route. Overlarge piping will also allow our exhaust pulses to achieve a higher level of entropy, which will take all of our header tuning and throw it out the window, as pulses will not have the same tendency to line up as they would in a smaller pipe. Coating the entire exhaust system with an insulative material, such as header wrap or a ceramic thermal barrier coating reduces this effect somewhat, but unless you have lots of cash burning a hole in your pocket, is probably not worth the expense on a street driven car.





[/FONT]
[/FONT]
 
I don't know anyone that has any good luck using double ( or 4) platinum tip electrode or iridium spark plugs on a jeep engine!!! In fact there has been negative feedback on both FWIW.

The double platinum NGK number you posted, is a single tip ground (not 2 or 4 ground tip) and it sounds newer (laser welded tip, two layers of platinum?), so it just may work?

I have used single ground tip platinum Bosch and Autolite plugs for years on my Renix jeeps.

I merely described the multiple ground plugs as an illustrative example - I wouldn't see any need to use them in cases where they're not specifically called for (since head design and gas flow dynamics will play a significant part in how well those things work...)

By the by - I got the link you sent around on Catalytic Converter operation. I'm only partway through it, but it's a fascinating read...
 
Today i performed the following in the morning:
* Decarbonization treatment through intake using B12 Chemtool (with old O2 sensor).
* Replaced Spark Plugs with NGK 7252 OEM Plugs.
* Oil & Filter Change
* Checked Oxygen Sensor Power & Ground which were ~13V

Went in for my Fourth Smog Check and it failed again with results almost duplicating my third run. Smog Check tech said he thinks something is wrong with the new Cat Conv. So, i go back to the guy who installed it last week with the results and he replaces it again out of good faith.

I drive it on the highway for 30min or so and go back in for my Fifth Smog Check with the following results.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

He then ran the smog check dyno in manual mode just to see the numbers and what was interesting was the Nox would fluctuate big time (350-1200) at the same time, should it be that sporadic ?

I am even more confused and aggravated at this point, i appreciate your continued help & suggestions in solving this problem. Amazingly the Jeep runs great, i am just lost :banghead:

Pete
 
Last edited:
The Jeep has failed CA Smog due to high Nox.
You can see the progress below and what i have done, i have no clue how else to go forward. Suggestions would be highly appreciated...


First Run.
* Checked Coolant Level and Aired Tires.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Second Run.
* New O2 Sensor (NGK 23023), Air Filter & Fuel Filter.
* SeaFoamed Engine.
* Checked for Vac Leaks.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Third Run.
* New Magnaflow Cat (39005).
- Strangely NOx levels went higher ?


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Pete

Looking over the earlier data again, I find it interesting that the 15 mph test passed NOx on test 1, but not the 25 mph test. Test 2, new O2 sensor, the O2 concentration doubled in both tests, and NOx swapped, with the 15 mph test failing (where it passed before), and the 25 mph that failed now passed, all the NOx that did pass was just barely.
Third test had a new Cat, and O2 dropped to zero, CO and HC dropped way down (they were already very low) to almost zero, and the O2, CO and HC numbers on test 3 are the lowest I think I have ever seen before. Test number 5 with the second new cat, had a 50% drop in 15 mph NOx readings, but the 25 mph NOx did not change. So it seems the second new Cat changed something, but you had also changed the spark plugs to a colder plug before running test 4 which gave the same results as test 3 IIRC?

At this point I would disconnect the battery, and clear the ECU/TCU memories, and then do an FSM relearn drive for a while (if there is one in the FSM for OBD-I-?), or just do some stop and go and highway driving to let the computers rebuild their running data tables.

I would then try running premium Techron gas, with some added snake oils like HEET (also see item 7 and 10):

http://forums.g2ic.com/printthread.php?t=38911

You also might try installing a colder thermostat, 180 F, just to pass the test!!!! Or spray the air filter with some oil, to make the air filter real dirty, and drop the air flow rates, thus forcing it to try and run richer?

I still think part of the problem is the new aftermarket headers are working too good for CO, O2, HC and power, and hurting the NOx numbers? Or your thermostat and cooling system is running a shade too hot in the block!!!!!

This post:
groc97 said:
About a month a ago I failed my emissions test. The only part I failed was the NOx ppm. I took it today and passed with ease. I only changed one thing:

This will pass the NOx ppm part of the emission.

My previous score was 1349, to pass i had to have less than 950. heres how. Snatch off your intake, and slap a sock on that mutha. Dropped my score from 1349 to 340. Take a sock and put it over you throttle. make sure you tighten it down with clamps or something. Depending on how far off you failed you might wanna slap 2 socks on that bytch.

Suggests a dirty air filter will help!!!! LOL
 
Last edited:
I've been following your thread, and I'm suspicious of your CAT. A new California compliant 3-way cat should see a big difference in NOX. Check for possibly a stamped part number on the CAT itself and make sure.
 
One more thing, and maybe some of the others that have modified the gearing with larger tires can chime in now? It looks like the last test was OK at the low speed, 15 mph, but failed at 25 mph. Keep in mind the dyno tests are a load test simulating hill climbing, that increases the engine load and combustion temps, to get a real look at peak NOx emissions!!!!

So now that the NOx number has passed at the lower speed, I now wonder if just putting on a stock set of tires might get the 25 MPH number into compliance. This assume you have or can get a set of stock tires?

But this post from the link I posted (page 2 of the posted thread):

I'm a smog tech in cali, and I know for a FACT that alcohol does not help that much on a smog ! Let me give you some background.
Back in the 90's, The EPA came back to Cali, and found that our air quality, in some areas of the state, still did not federal air quality standards. Even after 10 years of smog testing. Now the EPA required Cali do do what is called loaded mode testing, to be able to measure Nox emissions. Wtih the old test we only measured HC & CO directly, and did a EGR Functional. To the state that was good enough to limit Nox emissions. Well they were wrong. With loaded mode testing the vehicle is run on a dyno and loaded like it is climbing a hill. Nox is not really produced if the vehicle is not loaded. So now they can directly measure Nox emissions. O.K. Nox and alcohol. Nox is a gas that is produced under high pressure and high temperature during combustion. Nox is a acronym for Nitrogen OXides. Nitrogen gas, is one the most stable gas in our atmosphere, it comprises approx. 78% of the air you breathe, with oxygen being 21%, and the rest rare gases. To oxidize Nitrogen (combine it with oxygen) takes temps over 2500 deg. and 2500psi.
So you ask how does alcohol fit into all this ? Alcohol burns at a lower temp than gasoline, so it lowers combustion temp overall. When we started doing dyno testing in Cali, the state didn't really know how high Nox emissions, from vehicles, were going to be. So they set the max levels (or cutpoints, as they call them) high. As they went through a few more years of smog testing they started lowering the cutpoints as they got more and more vehicles tested so they now could get an average. Well some automotive chemical companies got the bright idea if they sold a product that contained alcohol in it, it could lower the combustion temps and produce less Nox. That was great when the Nox cutpoints were still high, it could and very often did work. But now that nearly another 10 years of smog testing have gone by alcohol doesn't really work that well anymore. Alcohol can lower combustion temps to lower Nox emission, but at the sacrifice of the other gases particularily HC. Lower combustion temps can cause an increase in HC because in lazy combustion chamber design engines (Wedge, Rotaries, valve in block) the fuel will not get heated enough to fully burn. when it doesn't burn it goes out the ex. valve andhopefully gets reduced in the cat.If not well you fail.
If you look back at the original post's test results ALL gases went down on the retest, that usually shows a smog tech that preheats the vehicle before the smog test. If it was the alcohol, then just the Nox would be lower. That is a trick a lot of shady smog techs use to make money in repairs. Run a vehicle cold, or barely warm, it fails. Charge the customer $300.00 in repairs, then superheat the cat by revving the engine to 3000 RPM for a few minutes. Then the vehicle passes, with no diagnosis or repairs being done.

Indicates that 3 bottles of HEET may be just what you need now?

If that fails, and your engine is running around 200-210 F, I would try a 180 cool t-stat next.
 
I've been following your thread, and I'm suspicious of your CAT. A new California compliant 3-way cat should see a big difference in NOX. Check for possibly a stamped part number on the CAT itself and make sure.

Or, if his Cat is working, the NOx is way way higher before reaching the Cat, and the Cat is working. Keep in mind his rig is OBD-I, and about 18 years old. Not sure the OEM cat was a 3 way cat back then (IDNK)? But it does beg the question of can he buy a better 3 way Cat than the Cat he is using?
 
Last edited:
Or, if his Cat is working, the NOx is way way higher before reaching the Cat, and the Cat is working. Keep in mind his rig is OBD-I, and about 18 years old. Not sure the OEM cat was a 3 way cat back then (IDNK)? But it does beg the question of can he buy a better 3 way Cat than the Cat he is using?


You used to be able to go buy a cat by GVWR. If you didn't pass with a cat for a GVWR of 4000lb the you could go get a cat for a GVWR of 6000 or more and pass. Now you can only get a cat that is listed for your vehicle. It is retarded. Another instance of Californias invasive ineffective government. http://www.magnaflow.com/02catalytic_converters/04basics/04california.asp
 
Wow, those prices are outrageous. I paid about $40 for a universal Cat for the 87 jeep. My first post install test, had numbers that 4-5% of the limits here on CO, HC and NOx.
 
I am still reading the long winded paper I posted earlier. Found this:

The gross vehicle weight (GVW) is what determines how much exhaust flow will occur during
ASM test conditions. Engine displacement does NOT have as much effect on this as GVW. A
small engine will operate under a wider throttle opening than a larger engine so that both engines
will have similar exhaust flows. In fact a small engine in a heavy car will be operating under
higher combustion pressures and tend to have higher NOx emissions than a larger engine in the
same car. Ignoring vehicle weight when selecting a catalyst can result in ASM test failure. Using
a converter that is rated for up to 4000 lbs on a 3999 lbs car is asking for trouble. EPA
certification only requires that a catalyst be 70% efficient at oxidizing CO & HC, and 60%
efficient at reducing NOx. Original equipment catalysts are sometimes sized to achieve over 90%
efficiency. When in doubt use a larger catalyst from a quality manufacturer and a reputable
distributor.
Non-EGR engines ***** Special Needs*****
EGR is one of the most effective ways to reduce NOx emissions. But not all cars have EGR
systems. Cars that do not use EGR to reduce NOx emissions must rely more heavily on that
catalytic converter to reduce NOx. These cars may require catalyst reduction efficiency of 90%
or more. Only the highest quality catalytic converters, operating under the intended conditions
can achieve this kind of efficiency. EPA certification only indicates that a converter can reduce
NOx emissions by 60%. That is under ideal conditions, and only if the converter is properly
sized and properly installed. This means that on cars that do not have EGR the cheaper catalytic
converters will often fail to reduce enough NOx emissions to pass an ASM smog test.
Larger catalysts are more likely to work. Increased use of rhodium and cerium can also improve
NOx reduction. Your experience with certain brands of converter should also be considered.
Custom fit or "direct fit" catalysts tend to pass ASM tests more reliably than universal fit. When
in doubt use a larger catalyst from a quality manufacturer and a reputable distributor.
 
Many catalytic converters also have a break in period. Some converters may require as much as 100 miles of "break-in" before they operate at their best efficiency. Using a scan tool to turn off a check engine light will often also put the PCM into a rapid learn mode that
allows the catalyst monitor to run repeatedly until patterns are relearned. This can cause repeat failures and turn the check engine light right back on, until the break-in period is over.
 
Back
Top