Aligned, but steering wheel upside down?

[TNT]

Please explain to me why.

Because toe in is adjusted seperately from the steering wheel centering adjustment.

The toe is adjusted by turning the steering tube running from the left outer tie rod end to the tie rod end mounted to the drag link.

Steering wheel center is adjusted by the adjuster sleeve between the end the draglink and the pitman arm tie rod end. It is above where the tierod end attached at.

Your toe in can be perfect and your steering wheel can be off center. You can adjust the steering wheel to center it later and it won't change toe in...

 

[JJacobs]

Because toe in is adjusted seperately from the steering wheel centering adjustment.

The toe is adjusted by turning the steering tube running from the left outer tie rod end to the tie rod end mounted to the drag link.

Steering wheel center is adjusted by the adjuster sleeve between the end the draglink and the pitman arm tie rod end. It is above where the tierod end attached at.

Your toe in can be perfect and your steering wheel can be off center. You can adjust the steering wheel to center it later and it won't change toe in...

Yes, it will change the toe-in. Not much, but a little bit. Less than 1/8 turn rotation on the steering wheel probably won't matter but it all depends on the lift height.

Here's why- with the steering wheel straight ahead, the pitman arm is where it's supposed to be. Centering the wheel causes the pitman arm to move side to side relative to the tires. So, lengthening or shortening the drag link also changes its angle, right? In an inverted-y stock steering setup, increasing the drag link angle increases toe- lowering the angle decreases it. It's the exact same effect as putting a lift kit on just not as drastic. I've found that a 3 inch lift will increase toe over .5 inch because of the difference in drag link angle and the fact that the tie rod does not go directly wheel to wheel.

Again, it's not a large change. I use alignment machines that measure in hundredths of an inch and this effect is very noticable. If your rig gets aligned with a tape measure then don't worry about it unless you're turning the steering wheel over, then you'll see a difference even with the tape.

 

[TNT]

Yes, it will change the toe-in. Not much, but a little bit. Less than 1/8 turn rotation on the steering wheel probably won't matter but it all depends on the lift height.

Here's why- with the steering wheel straight ahead, the pitman arm is where it's supposed to be. Centering the wheel causes the pitman arm to move side to side relative to the tires. So, lengthening or shortening the drag link also changes its angle, right? In an inverted-y stock steering setup, increasing the drag link angle increases toe- lowering the angle decreases it. It's the exact same effect as putting a lift kit on just not as drastic. I've found that a 3 inch lift will increase toe over .5 inch because of the difference in drag link angle and the fact that the tie rod does not go directly wheel to wheel.

Again, it's not a large change. I use alignment machines that measure in hundredths of an inch and this effect is very noticable. If your rig gets aligned with a tape measure then don't worry about it unless you're turning the steering wheel over, then you'll see a difference even with the tape.

Only above 5" of lift will it make a change that is measureable. On mine it wasn't enough to even make it close to going out of spec and that is with 6" of lift. At lower lifts there isn't any real change because the tierod tube is much closer to being level.

It really doesn't change it enough to matter. I centered mine on a new Hunter alignment machine after setting toe and if I remember correctly my toe change was .04".

 

[RCP Phx]

Because toe in is adjusted seperately from the steering wheel centering adjustment.

The toe is adjusted by turning the steering tube running from the left outer tie rod end to the tie rod end mounted to the drag link.

Steering wheel center is adjusted by the adjuster sleeve between the end the draglink and the pitman arm tie rod end. It is above where the tierod end attached at.

Your toe in can be perfect and your steering wheel can be off center. You can adjust the steering wheel to center it later and it won't change toe in...

Thank you TNT,while Old Man is correct that "it might cause some change" it highly unlikely that it is anything you could measure without a Laser rack!

 

[Lowrange2]

Only above 5" of lift will it make a change that is measureable. On mine it wasn't enough to even make it close to going out of spec and that is with 6" of lift. At lower lifts there isn't any real change because the tierod tube is much closer to being level.

It really doesn't change it enough to matter. I centered mine on a new Hunter alignment machine after setting toe and if I remember correctly my toe change was .04".

You still have stock steering on 6" of lift?

 

[JJacobs]

There's no 'might' about it, it's a fact regardless of how you think it should be. As I said in my posts it's not a huge difference, but if someone is paying for an alignment and the tech tries to adjust the steering wheel without checking toe (laying on the side of the road w/ a gear wrench) then someone is not getting what they're paying for.

 

[RCP Phx]

No,if it changes over .1 degree it would be a miracle!And Im talking about the draglink angle!Do the math,then recaclcullate that back on the tie rod angle,math really doesnt lie!
Go to Go-Jeeps site,if you are paying for an alignment your wasting money anyway.There really isnt much to adjust.Camber(not without offset ball joints),castor(may need adjustable uppers or lowers),toe is easy and accurate using the proper methods!I still scribe my tires and it doesnt get much better than that!

 

[JJacobs]

No, my measurements are based off of what matters, the alignment machine. I need no calculations.

 

[rcnerd]

No,if it changes over .1 degree it would be a miracle!And Im talking about the draglink angle!Do the math,then recaclcullate that back on the tie rod angle,math really doesnt lie!
Go to Go-Jeeps site,if you are paying for an alignment your wasting money anyway.There really isnt much to adjust.Camber(not without offset ball joints),castor(may need adjustable uppers or lowers),toe is easy and accurate using the proper methods!I still scribe my tires and it doesnt get much better than that!

yeah I agree 100%...if you know what you are doing and have a tape measure you can align a jeep. When I had mine done by a shop, properly, on their big fancy machine, my steering wheel came out crooked as well...for 79.99$!! let me assure you that when i do a tape measure alignment in my garage, my steering wheel is straight when i'm done.....

also if you're worried about it being right or not you can check the alignment (and tire pressure) by painting a line across the tire and confirming even wear....this is a step that no fancy machine can duplicate...

 

[91XJRubicXD]

Hey everyone, I've got a strange thing going on with my jeep after I lifted it. I bought the RE 5.5 lift, added BFG 33's, 10" DC-1 wheels by Dick Cepek. After all was said and done, I took the truck to the alignment shop today. Couple hours later they told me I could come get it. I went back, paid my 75.81 and was told the steering seemed a lil stressed. According to RE's info, there short arm system is considered geometrically correct. I'm not if that is true or not, but anyhow, I drove off and I notice it very easily moves left or right, kinda like it pulls one way then the other. I centered the axle myself by using the string/weight method then measuring to make sure both sides were the same , which it was. When I took the truck to the shop, my wheel was upside down and the steering did the same but a bit more. I can see that the tires are pointing inwards and it's not like slightly, what should I do ? And is this a toe - in issue ?

 

[jeeperjohn]

More than likely they disconnected the steering shaft at the rag joint and just reattached it 180 out.

 

[nick86]

I'm gonna go out a limb here, and prolly get flamed. But when you lift an XJ, of course the front axle is gonna shift.
Now that said, if you brought your rig to me I wouldn't have even put it on the rack without asking if you corrected the trackbar issue. If you hadn't I'd tell ya NO. I could do A WinToe, but that's it.

 

[WrenchMonkey]

Do the math, math really doesnt lie!

Okay, I actually did.

I coudn't believe that it would matter at all, but rather than add another "will not" "will too" post, I pulled out the tape measure.

For reference, I'm at 5" with essentially stock steering. I measured the pitmanarm-draglink point at 24" off the ground. Draglink-tierod at 17", and both knuckles at 15".

The draglink measures 27" from the pitman to the tierod, and 10.5" from the tierod to the right knuckle. The tierod was 41.5" joint to joint.

I turned the steering wheel 180*, and the pitman arm swung about 1.25". I decided to call it 1.5", to figure worst-case, and make the math (a little) easier...

 

[WrenchMonkey]

So first we need some angles. This'd be easier with a drawing, but you'll have to either use your imagination, or just trust me. My draglink is 37.5 ete over an 8.5" rise, meaning a 36.52 run. 8.5/36.5 is 0.2328, so the draglink, ete, runs at 13.1* to the horizontal. (13.1 is the arctan(.2328))

But the draglink isn't straight its whole length. From the knuckle to the tierod end it's flatter. It's a 10.5 inch slope over only a 1.5" rise, yielding a 10.39" run, a 0.1443 tangent, and an angle of just 8.21*.

Finally the tierod, which for some reason I measured horizontally instead of the true length. We won't need the angle, but with a run of 41.5 and a rise of 1.5, the true length comes to 41.52".

 

[WrenchMonkey]

Okay, so those are all the "after" numbers, with my draglink right and my wheel straight. If the "before" had the steering wheel 180* off (like Fancy's), it was because the draglink was off about an inch and a half. We don't know which way, but I'll go shorter for argument's sake.

A 36" draglink over that 8.5" drop makes a 35" run, a 0.2428 tangent, and a 13.6* angle, half a degree steeper than, uh, after...

If the whole draglink shifts half a degree, the section from the knuckle to the tierod end rises from 8.21 to 8.71*. On its 10.5" length, that gives a 10.3789 run, and a 1.59 rise. So the tierod end rose only 0.09", pulling the right knuckle in just 0.011"

The left side is even less. The tierod's rise will match, going from 1.5 to 1.59. With the 41.52" length, the run is 41.4966" versus the 41.5" I measured.


So changing the length of the draglink an inch and a half changed total knuckle-to-knuckle length from 51.89" to 51.8755", 0.0145 difference. Fourteen thousandths. The thickness of a damn playing card.

And that, my friends, is squat.

Robert