Aftermarket Radiator

[HaleYes]

CSF Radiator is on the way to my house. Hopefully, mine will hold out until it gets here.:laugh:

Hale

 

[Gojeep]

So do I - have for years.

Granted, I don't much follow motorsports - but isn't an advantage of an aluminum radiator vice copper reduced weight for the same size? That means more of the acceleration is going to be used to actually accelerate, due to reduced mass (and therefore reduced inertia.) I think you'll find that most "motorsports" vehicle also run straight water - water is a more efficient thermal conductor than ethylene glycol, and therefore will work with the radiator and engine to conduct more heat. EG is added to automotive systems to prevent freezing, not to improve cooling.

I also hear you on the metric stuff - I still think in inches, and probably always will. Fortunately, there are "one-button conversions" on my calculator - I try to remember the conversion factors myself, but I've been hit in the head an awful lot, and can't trust my memory implicitly on some things any more...

You are right on the money.

 

[Dingo509]

OK Normally i don't get into these pissing matches but i this one i couldn't resist

Yeah. That's why every single person in any kind of motorsport runs an aluminum radiator.

Wanna know why?

Copper is heavy, aluminum is light.

BINGO!

Do you think John Force has a copper radiator?

Have you ever seen a funny car up close? Next time you see John Force's car up close take a picture of the radiator for me.

A 2 core aluminum radiator will out cool a 4 core copper brass radiator all day everyday. Why? Airflow. It is easier to flow air through 2 cores than 4. So why would an aluminum 2 core out perform a 2 core copper radiator? Because copper is weak. After it bends and flexes it will flow very little air or water.

Oh Really? Now take a typical XJ and limit the core size to less that 1.5" and see how well your 4 core radiator cools. OH that's right nobody makes one! Hmm okay how about a 3 core. 3 little tubes less than .5" cross section. Well let me tell you something. My 1.25" SINGLE CORE aluminum cools way better than my 3 core copper ever thought of. WHY? Simple, an XJ radiator severely restricts the coolant flow. In that case you can have a 4" inlet and outlet and 500 GPM water pump and you will still overheat. Been there.

In a vehicle with a taller radiator maybe your theory is sound. But let's face it The XJ does not have a tall radiator so tube cross section plays a major part in it. don't believe me yet? When was the last time you heard of a overheating problem in a Kenworth?

All the wires in your Jeep are made of copper. Why? Because it is easy to bend and has all the properties that GoJeep spoke of.

apples to oranges. thermal conductivity and electrical conductivity are too different things. (the way your using them) Automotive wires are made of copper for 2 main reasons. Electrical conductivity and price per weight. Copper conducts electricity better than (most) aluminum or aluminum alloys. And it is cheaper than some better conducting materials such as silver. And not all wires are made copper. Alot of aircraft have aluminum wires. Now further in depth the thermal conductivity effects electrical conductivity because heat increases resistance. Of course conductivity is really the same whether it be electrical or thermal. But I'm done explaining all that, My guess is i lost you already.

Are your rims made of copper? Of course not they have to be strong.

NO not exactly. Copper alloys can be as strong or stronger than Aluminum alloys. And yes your wheels are an alloy. Wheels also come down to 2 basic reasons. Weight and cost. Centrifical weight is the worst weight to have on a vehicle. So wheels should be light. aluminum is lighter than copper and aluminum is cheaper and easy to work with.

Is your stereo amplifier made of copper? Nope it's aluminum because it has to be strong and dissipate heat.

NO. Strong? It's an amplifier. Not a skidplate. strength has very little to do with it. and again it also has to do with being cheap. An aluminum heat sink will handle the heat generated by an amplifier just fine, so why pay more for a copper heat sink when aluminum will do the job. And again aluminum is easier to work with. In the case of an amplifier case it is extruded. Plus your talking air vs water. Take a look a high end overclocked computer processors and see what they use. COPPER based water blocks for use with a LIQUID coolant. hmm kinda like an automotive radiator.

If copper is so great why can I buy an aluminum head and run 11 to 1 compression on pump gas or use an Iron head and run 10.5 to 1 compression on pump gas? Why can't I buy a copper head and run 13 to 1 on pump gas? :sure:

You probably could run 13:1 using a copper head. Using pump gas? probably not. ALOT more factors go into the correct compression ratio then just the material of the head. And besides, the iron heads are cheaper than aluminum. WHY? well for the most part the materials that go into the iron is not the best of materials. It is sufficient to do the job at the cheapest option.

answer this for me, oh great god of aluminum. Why is it that most Intake manifolds, door panels and most other car parts are not made out of aluminum? could it be PRICE and WEIGHT for the job it has to do?

So as your coming up with your answer to that question answer these too.
Why is carbon fiber not used on every hood, fender and decklid on every car?
Why can't wheels be made from a composite plastic?
Why do people choose chromoly over aluminum for roll cages? How about over carbon fiber?
Why aren't guys like Jeff Gordon using plastic intakes manifolds, aluminum chassis, and carbon fiber bodies? (yes i know some of you know that NHRA has been using carbon fiber bodies for awhile but AFAIK NASCAR is using fiberglass and steel.)

And im not even going to start on corrosion, fatigue, chemical resistance, or any of the other million things that you have no clue of by your response.

There is so much more going on here than i care to explain. The world is full of perfect materials, each has there perfect application. But if you start wanting a material that can do more than one thing at a time you now have many, many options, all which have Pros and Cons. It's the reason that material engineers exist.

Okay I'm done ranting now. I know there alot of people out there that understand this stuff alot more than me, so if i'm wrong please correct me. WITH FACTS not you opinions.

Dingo

 

[TRCM]

I think you'll find that most "motorsports" vehicle also run straight water - water is a more efficient thermal conductor than ethylene glycol, and therefore will work with the radiator and engine to conduct more heat. EG is added to automotive systems to prevent freezing, not to improve cooling.

This is off base somewhat.

Motorsports use straight water because of the potential for a spill in a crash, and the environmental effects. Also, certain motorsports, like drag racing and circle track, the mix of water & antifreeze is more slippery than straight water.

Anti-freeze is added to prevent freezing, but when mixed with water, it changes the properties of both, which results in a lower freezing temperature, and a higher boiling temperature.

Try running an engine on straight ethylene glycol, or on straight water. Either one will boil over or freeze sooner than the mixture will.

 

[5-90]

Ah - interesting. I shall have to dig around on that subject further. Meanwhile, I stand corrected.

Um, Dingo - a lot of intakes are made of cast aluminum - to bring energy costs down. Intakes don't have to handle the heat that exhausts do, so they can use aluminum (which melts at a lower temperature) for the intake - which also makes the intake lighter (reducing vehicle weight) and aluminum machines more readily than iron (which reduces CNC cycle times and production costs.) And yes, I've also seen a plastic intake on a production vehicle - 1995 and 1996 Neon (both owned by one of my boys.) I'm not so sure that plastic was such a good idea for something like that, but what do I know? This thing was designed by Mitsubishi...

If you want to make the XJ radiator more efficient in general - redesign it for a "downflow" pattern rather than a "crossflow." This have the effect of exposing more hot coolant to ram air at any given time, allowing for more heat ejection by the radiator. Anyone want to try to tackle that one? Radiator flow patterns and design play as important a part as material used - if not moreso.

As far as copper wiring - copper is pretty much the de facto standard for electrics in pretty much anything anymore. Copper does conduct heat and electricity more efficiently than aluminum, but there's this other little problem called "galvanic action" (look it up.) Simply put, have you ever noticed how you have to use special outlets and switches if your house is wired with aluminum? Dig around at a well-stocked hardware store (a mom-and-pop might not have this stuff.) If you connect copper to aluminum then pass a current through it, it's going to start corroding. Nothing you can do about it.

And, since more automotive wiring is about passing signals than distributing power, using a better conductor will give you a cleaner signal, meaning you don't have to use so much power for signal generation, and this reduces the cost of signal processing componentry. Advantage? Copper.

Comparing production street vehicles to one-off racing vehicles is not even "apples to oranges" - more like "sponges to rocks." With a racing vehicle, you're looking at something that gets torn down, inspected, and overhauled after every week-end of running. Production vehicles are supposed to go 200kmiles or better between overhauls (theoretically...) No valid comparison there.

 

[Dingo509]

Um, Dingo - a lot of intakes are made of cast aluminum - to bring energy costs down. Intakes don't have to handle the heat that exhausts do, so they can use aluminum (which melts at a lower temperature) for the intake - which also makes the intake lighter (reducing vehicle weight) and aluminum machines more readily than iron (which reduces CNC cycle times and production costs.) And yes, I've also seen a plastic intake on a production vehicle - 1995 and 1996 Neon (both owned by one of my boys.) I'm not so sure that plastic was such a good idea for something like that, but what do I know? This thing was designed by Mitsubishi....

Sorry, I went over this about ten times trying to find any mistakes. and you found one. I meant so say why are NEWER intakes etc... not made from aluminum.

Yes Neons are one of them. Used to work in a doge dealerships. Also the 3.5L in the Intrepid. ALL the 2.0L that i have seen now have composite intakes. And i owned a POS 99 Chevrolet Tahoe and it also had a Plastic intake, and it was the old Vortec 3500. AKA the 350 CID Small block engine.

Dingo

 

[TRCM]

Ah - interesting. I shall have to dig around on that subject further. Meanwhile, I stand corrected.

If you want to make the XJ radiator more efficient in general - redesign it for a "downflow" pattern rather than a "crossflow." This have the effect of exposing more hot coolant to ram air at any given time, allowing for more heat ejection by the radiator. Anyone want to try to tackle that one? Radiator flow patterns and design play as important a part as material used - if not moreso.

Sure.....

The downflow design is one of the worst out there. Why do ford, chevy and most others use cross flow ? And the old dodge uses downflow. That's why so many people switch their dodge to a chevy cross flow...it simply works better. Even the new dodges use crossflow.

Water & air can only exchange heat at a given rate for a given temp diff. (physics thing). Well, you can either put water that is twice as hot as the air in the cooling flow for lets say 1 sec as the water does the downflow thing, and you may drop 30 deg. but, if you send that same water thru a rad in a crossflow pattern, it will be in the cooling airflow twice as long (assuming the rad is twice as wide as it is tall, like ours), so it will most likely drop 40-50 deg, instead of just 30. it doesn't double the drop because the temp diff is not as great. As the temp diff gets smaller, less heat will be transfered, but it will still transfer heat as long as it's in the airflow. I'd rather have it in the airflow 2x as long.

Do some reasearch on it...cross flow works better than downflow, even if for nothing more than hot water doesn't like to sink. Also, in a downflow rad, you arelimited to the lenght of time the water is in the airstream because the rad can only be so tall. but in a crossflow, you can normally make the rad wider to have the water in the airflow longer.

Or you can do like I did, and purchase a dual pass rad....the water in my rad (on my offroad rig) passes thru the cooling airflow twice...works very well by the way.


I still fail to see how a down flow rad will expose any more hot water to the air than a crossflow. the only thing that will change that is rad placement, not flow style.


This is a cut & paste from the UTI webpage:
Crossflow radiators have radiator rows located horizontally so that water travels across the radiator, and downflow radiators have rows positioned vertically so that water travels downward. A crossflow radiator is typically more efficient than a downflow for the simple reason that the pressure cap is located on the low-pressure side (opposite the outlet or upper hose location). This cap location allows sustained high-rpm operation without forcing fluid past the cap. In addition, under-hood-space considerations typically allow a shorter and wider crossflow radiator to utilize a larger core with added surface area, which provides more effective and efficient cooling.

 

[fubar XJ]

Thanks for all of the responses. I'm leaning towards the CSF radiator, seems to get high marks all around. I've also decided to go with a Flow-Kooler water pump, since my XJ has notoriously run very hot anytime the outside temp is above 75-80 degrees. I'm going to install some hood vents as well, likely a pair off of a 260Z. I don't anticipate any further cooling issues once I've installed this trifecta of cooling relief.

 

[Gojeep]

Forget the Flowcooler as plenty have had trouble with them on this forum alone. They are just a cheap pump with a disc rivotted to the impeller. You can make you own as even sell the disc at Summit. http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?N=400299+300292+115&autoview=sku
Better off with a Hesco one. www.hescosc.com

 

[fubar XJ]

Too late, I ordered the Flow Kooler pump yesterday. If it turns out to be a POS, I'll replace it with a Hesco when it fails. Were the Flow Kooler pump problems of a catastrophic nature, i.e. stranded on the trails with a blown pump, or more a durability issue, i.e. wearing out prematurely?

 

[MudDawg]

Reviewing this, a couple of questions caome to mind....does the rig still have the original radiator??? '91 is elderly for a radiator....if it is plugged up...there yah go....it will run normally under low loads...but run hot if loaded (classic symptom of plugged radiator)....the crossflow design allows sludge and crud to build up in the lower passes, effectively reducing the capacity.

I cut apart the old rad from my '91 MJ just out of curiosity....the lower 1/3 was plugged up with crud....the remaining 2/3 was not up to handling the load. And this was after paying to have it "professionally" flushed.

Don't forget to use a new thermostat....the engine is supposed to run at 210* the coolant mixture should not exceed 50% or heat transfer will be too poor...Ethylene and propylene glycol are not good at transferring heat. Their real use is in keeping the mix from freezing.

 

[Gojeep]

Too late, I ordered the Flow Kooler pump yesterday. If it turns out to be a POS, I'll replace it with a Hesco when it fails. Were the Flow Kooler pump problems of a catastrophic nature, i.e. stranded on the trails with a blown pump, or more a durability issue, i.e. wearing out prematurely?

Cracked housings leaving you stranded.

 

[DOOD]

actually mr.mom the "heavy duty two row" you purchased was actually a three row. how do I know because I work for the largest wholesale dist. of rads in the country. One of the many names is auto radiator outlet. that part#1193-3pl is a three row. Not quite as good quality as the 1193-3cs which is a csf...but it will work. As for the fight over copper vs. aluminum...aluminum cools better because you can have a higher fin count and you can also dimple the cores which creates turbulence in the water...in turn having all of the coolant mixture touching the surface area more often.

 

[MrMom]

I thought so too until I COUNTED the rows of tubes before I installed it
it is a two row. I was told few weeks ago ( when looking at ordering one for a friend) that part # was replaced with a heavy duty two row.
was told they did not offer the three row any more in the pro liance name
But then again does not make much difference to me it cools better the chinese junk before it

 

[badron]

water is a more efficient thermal conductor : True

But you must run a higher cap presser with 100% water then a 50/50 mix (a dam good all around mix) of water and ethylene glycol. A lot higher. To maintain the same boiling (vapor point) point in a pressurize system.
A bad thing for pump seals, rad blow outs. Plus the E glycol act like a lub for the water pump. Prevents rust.
Racers care little about most of this stuff. Plus they can drain pure water right into a drain without a fine as may happen at some track if Anti is in the rad.
Small tube rad:
If high flow is needed, a very small tube ( 2 or 3 row) maybe a resistance problem. But this is seldom a problem for offers. The lower RPM and in most chasses the lower flow in the rad used by most offers just can't build this problem.
Note: If your a real go faster or if very deep gears are used this rule may not be valid. The higher RPM push more water and the small tube can be a problem. But you may still remain cool as long as SUFANT flow is maintained No resistance in the coolant system is important to races. By reducing resistance to flow the water pump draws less HP off the engine. At 7000+ rpm a chocked down coolant system can eat a lot of HP.
General not a problem for most offers. But this is were the big tube came from.
Tight fins: of racing rads (generally alum), not a problem at 160+ MPH of race cars but for offing speeds it can be harder to push air through it. BIG BIG fans help there.
Alum V copper : A copper core with Alum fins? It can be done. It is done. It ant cheap! People will scream corrosion . There are ways to prevent it. Dam the best of both.

 

[punker248]

Yeah. That's why every single person in any kind of motorsport runs an aluminum radiator. Do you think John Force has a copper radiator? How about Jeff Gordon? Copper is weak, aluminum is strong. Copper is heavy, aluminum is light. A 2 core aluminum radiator will out cool a 4 core copper brass radiator all day everyday.

Why? Airflow. It is easier to flow air through 2 cores than 4.
So why would an aluminum 2 core out perform a 2 core copper radiator?
Because copper is weak. After it bends and flexes it will flow very litte air or water.

Think of it like this.
All the wires in your Jeep are made of copper. Why? Because it is easy to bend and has all the properties that GoJeep spoke of.
Are your rims made of copper? Of course not they have to be strong.
Is your stereo amplifier made of copper? Nope it's aluminum because it has to be strong and disapate heat.
If copper is so great why can I buy an aluminum head and run 11 to 1 compression on pump gas or use an Iron head and run 10.5 to 1 compression on pump gas? Why can't I buy a copper head and run 13 to 1 on pump gas? :sure:

You could run a copper head if you wanted too, it would probably work very well, though the valve seats would probably wear prematurely. Copper is a pretty strong metal, especially in certain alloys, though it is certainly a bit softer than Al. Copper is expensive though. Very Very expensive, and cast copper wouldn't be any good for a head. A block of copper big enough to machine a head out of would literally cost you around $10,000. That's the major reason you don't have a copper head on your motor.

 

[offroaddog67]

Yeah. That's why every single person in any kind of motorsport runs an aluminum radiator. Do you think John Force has a copper radiator? How about Jeff Gordon? Copper is weak, aluminum is strong. Copper is heavy, aluminum is light. A 2 core aluminum radiator will out cool a 4 core copper brass radiator all day everyday.

Why? Airflow. It is easier to flow air through 2 cores than 4.
So why would an aluminum 2 core out perform a 2 core copper radiator?
Because copper is weak. After it bends and flexes it will flow very litte air or water.

Think of it like this.
All the wires in your Jeep are made of copper. Why? Because it is easy to bend and has all the properties that GoJeep spoke of.
Are your rims made of copper? Of course not they have to be strong.
Is your stereo amplifier made of copper? Nope it's aluminum because it has to be strong and disapate heat.
If copper is so great why can I buy an aluminum head and run 11 to 1 compression on pump gas or use an Iron head and run 10.5 to 1 compression on pump gas? Why can't I buy a copper head and run 13 to 1 on pump gas? :sure:

The reason aluminum Radiators are used in racing is weight, not because they are stronger or better but simply because they are lighter.

Copper is less brittle and less prone to break when flexed, transfers heat better and can be patched in the field with a roll of solder and a simple propane torch when something pokes a hole in it ...(been there done that).

Aluminum is a great material and used for many things but Copper is better at transfering heat and can be repaired easliy. I don't care about weight so I use Copper.

By the way John Force doesn't use an aluminum radiator....Dragsters don't have Radiators...:farmer:

 

[5-90]

Or you can do like I did, and purchase a dual pass rad....the water in my rad (on my offroad rig) passes thru the cooling airflow twice...works very well by the way.

Interesting. I'd like to know more - might one enquire as to where you found a "two-pass" radiator? Especially one that fits in an OEM spot? I've known about them for fluid power cooling, but not for automotive radiators...

 

[Gojeep]

I know of triple pass radiators. All they do is on the inlet side tank, solder in a plate inside the tank to stop the water dropping any further than a third of the way down. Then on the other side they solder in another plate 2/3rds down. You cannot do this if you have a auto cooler in tank.
So now the water comes in the top third, travels across the radiator, drops down to the middle third and then travels back to the other side to fall into the bottom third to then travel across and out the lower hose. You can modify any copper and bass tanked radiator to do this. Just a simple piece of brass shaped to fit the inside of the tank and it is then soldered to the three sides of the tank. It wont be sealed against the core but a bit of leakage doesn't matter. Seen claims of 50% improvement in cooling but don't believe it would be that much. Still every bit helps and would slow the flow for better heat transfer as well.

 

[badron]

We keep mix high speed racing with offing.
Take the rad out of a 500 hp race car and pop it into you 190 HP 6 bannger. On a hot day you blowing steam in stop and go traffic much less any hard offing. Most high speed race cars are easy to keep cool com paired to offers. Think about how big of a fan would you need to equal the air a race car see at 100 MPH. Don't look to race cars for answer on keeping your offer cool. They are to different beast.