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adjusting for caster

curious, do you have a LP D30 or HP? I have front driveshaft issues similar to yours so I just drive with it out right now. Only thing is I cannot adjust my pinion any higher or it will wander like crazy so watch how much you tilt that pinion up and observe how it feels cuz it may act like mine. I think my only option is to cut and turn the c's like mentioned above.
 
Get the pinon angle right on the front axle, then have it aligned and tell them to only use off set ball joints to adjust the caster(they are expensive and as far as I know a dealer only part) the off set ball joints are available in 5*, 1.0* and 1.5* incriments, but you do need to know which one you need before ordering.
Any way I'm running 6" of lift with the same lower arms that came with my 4.5" Rustys lift, I have a RE Hack and Tap with front driveshaft in the rear the only vibs I have are from my tires as the balancer at the dealership I work for does not balance 35s right 33s it is fine. Front front tires are closer to my firewall and they do rub turns going to full lock on the back of the fender opening which is why I'm looking into upgrading to long arms.
 
rob92xj said:
Get the pinon angle right on the front axle, then have it aligned and tell them to only use off set ball joints to adjust the caster(they are expensive and as far as I know a dealer only part) the off set ball joints are available in 5*, 1.0* and 1.5* incriments, but you do need to know which one you need before ordering.
Any way I'm running 6" of lift with the same lower arms that came with my 4.5" Rustys lift, I have a RE Hack and Tap with front driveshaft in the rear the only vibs I have are from my tires as the balancer at the dealership I work for does not balance 35s right 33s it is fine. Front front tires are closer to my firewall and they do rub turns going to full lock on the back of the fender opening which is why I'm looking into upgrading to long arms.

adjustable ball joints are not a dealer item only and they come in 1 3/4* and 2* also. You can get them at rockauto for like $50-60 buck a piece and are NOT THAT bad to do your self. I did mine but used stock ones when one was bad.....I am now debating using the adjustables but also leaning toward cut and turn
 
all this talk of cut and turn, is this something that everyone has done to their jeeps or what? i've never seen any talk of this until now. So has everyone thats gone 4.5" had to do this? Just wasnt expecting all that....theres no other fix for this? I'm not exactly thrilled about cutting and welding. cutting im good at, welding not so good.
 
You're going to need somebody to point this out in person while you're looking at the Jeep, or start seeing pictures, cause it's hard with words. As mentioned above, on a stock setup, the pinion points at the TC and there is approx. 6* caster on the inner c's, which means if you're looking at the axle from the side, the bottom of the inner c will be more toward the front of the vehicle and the top of the inner c will be more towards the back of the vehicle (they lean back). This leaning back helps the vehicle track straight, and you can get death wobble if they don't lean back far enough. If you shorten the lower arms to fix the pinion angle, you may not have enough caster and may then have problems with it tracking straight, death wobble, etc.

The stock upper control arms are shorter than the lowers. As the suspension cycles down, the inner c's lean back even more, and the pinion points down further toward the ground. Usually not enough to matter for street driving though, and when off-road you're going slow enough that you won't feel any vibrations from it. What year xj? HP or LP D30? Offset ball joints or cutting & turning are the only ways to get perfect caster AND proper pinion angle with a lifted setup. The other alternative is to try to find an acceptable compromise between the two, which usually isn't a problem for around 4.5" of lift & less with an HP axle. A 4.5" lift kit will often give more than 4.5" at first also, keep that in mind. Forget any talk about hubs, disconnects, etc. since you have the 242 TC.

By the way, the inner c's are what the knuckles connect to via the balljoints. The u-joint on the axleshaft resides between the inner c and the steering knuckle.
 
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Thanks XJ, I know what everyone is talking about now with turning the C's. I know exactly what your talking about with the angle that they are at with the top of the C leaning more towards the back of the jeep. And completely honest I'd almost downsize the lift before I got into all that. 1 because I'm never going to be a hardcore offroader, I just dont live in a place to make that possible. It is my daily driver, although I do have 2 cars, so its not like I have to drive it, or dont have to drive it. I only went with 4" becuase I figured if I went with 3 I would be thirsty for more lift and figured I'd just go bigger right off the bat and be done at that, and I wanted to run 32's. It all doesnt matter really. I'll pretty much just walk off with my tail between my legs since I obviously didnt do enough research to begin with and wasnt prepared for what I was getting myself into.

BTW its a 94
 
2001XJ said:
adjustable ball joints are not a dealer item only and they come in 1 3/4* and 2* also. You can get them at rockauto for like $50-60 buck a piece and are NOT THAT bad to do your self. I did mine but used stock ones when one was bad.....I am now debating using the adjustables but also leaning toward cut and turn
The sizes I listed are the only sizes available from a Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge dealer. This is the first I am hearing about the aftermarket making them.
As for cutting the inner c off the axle and rotating it, make sure who ever welds it knows what they are doing as I have seen them seperated at the welds from being incorrectly welded.

Backroads I have same SYE a RE 1801 with a front shaft from a 99 XJ in my 92 XJ 4.0L AW-4 NP242 and a Chrysler 8.25 rear.
At 4" of lift you should not really have those problems the other thing I can think of is a binding u joint on your front driveshaft or a bad centering joint in the front shaft.
Here is a pic of mine a few months ago while still putting it back together
93829.jpg

Here is a little more recent pic in action.

95207.jpg

It has a Rustys 4.5" lift with fixed lower arms, 1.75" coil spacers, 1.5" RE Boomerang shackles the only vibs I have are from the tires which are worn down(got them for almost nothing)
 
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Mines not as tall as yours, at least doesnt look like it. Its sitting at maybe a bit over 4.5". Fixed LCAs as well. Shouldnt be having to cut and reweld I wouldnt think. That seems ridiculous thing to do for a pretty common lift size. I'm stumped, and jealous. I havent even bought bigger tires yet because of problem after problem with this!!!


so you say your are running 4.5" LCAs at around 6" right? did you use the offset balljoints or whats going on there?!!!

I see a LOT of people running RE 4.5 kits and I know most of them put out more lift than the advertised 4.5", I cant see that every one of them are having to cut their axle tubes and reweld the ends back on because of this?
 
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Mine still has the original ball joints in it at 207,000+ miles. I would say check your U Joints very carefully as well as the centering joint on the front shaft, I've seen a bunch of them go bad and cause all sorts of problems, move each joint very slowly and feel for the slightest hint of binding especially at the centering joint.
I'm also a tech for a Jeep dealership.
As far as the front adjustments go pinion angle is adjusted before caster on the front axle then once the pinion angle is right caster can then only be adjusted with a off set ball joint.
I had this same problem with one a few years ago and it turned out to be a bad centering joint as well as a swapped in TJ/ZJ axle housing(Dana 30 LP).
 
I have 2 different front shafts I have tried. I cant imagine both of them are trashed. the one I pulled at the yard last week looks like new compared to mine. I guess its possible, but doesnt seem likely. Either way thanks for your help.

The problem is though I cant adjust my pinion angle anymore with the arms that are in. Unless I went with some kind of adjustable control arm, but no one has suggested that yet..
 
It's all been said; to adjust your XJ's pinion angle so that the u-join-to-drive shaft angle at the pinion equals 0* (correct angle when using double Cardin u-joint at the transfer case--which we are all assuming your NP242 transfer case has??), you will need longer lower, or shorter upper control arms. Adjustable control arms make life easier, but are not essential. Remember, there is an ideal length, considering the amount of lift, necessary to place the axle in the correct place, relative to the wheel well, and to achieve necessary caster; incorrect positioning of the axle will lead to other problems.
So, yes, you could buy adjustable arms and crank in any combination of pinion/caster angles. You could possibly find the combination of pinion/caster that minimises vibration and gives "acceptable" road manners (livable wandering, erratic steering). Certainly, installing adjustable arms will not cause any problems; it's how you use them that may cause problems.
Lifting any vehickle leads to compromises. It depends on what you are willing to live with. If you want to lift your XJ 4.5-6inches, AND expect good road behavior, you'll need to spend time researching the effect of each change, deciding on what mods are required to re-engineer the whole drive line to give the results you desire.
Most guys lift their Jeeps with out huge expectations of "stock" behavior. So such comments as "I've got 6inches of lift, running stock arms, and am not experiencing problems" can be had. You may not experience the same results, because your expectations are different.
When I had a stock D30, high pinion axle, and 6 inches of lift, I noticed some front shaft related vibration above ~30MPH; not earth shattering, but uncomfortable for me to accept--I'm some what of a perfectionist. My caster was at 6* at that point--I had never fooled with it, but I did have longer, fixed-length, after-market U and LCA arms. Obviously, my u-joint angles were off, but I just lived with it, because I had a disconnect front axle--so the front shaft did not normally turn while on the high-way.
If you can't live with the vibration, adjust it out with adjustable control arms. If the correct drive shaft angle results in LESS than 4.5-5* of caster, you may be able to adjust that out with adjustable ball joints, as suggest above. My experience with adjustable ball joints, and large changes, like 1.5-2.0*, is you may create clearance issues between steering components.
In my opinion, the only way to have your cake and it too, with a smile:cheers: is to install a HP front diff, if you don't already have one, rotate the "C's" so that the pinion-to drive-shaft angle sets at 0*, and caster sets at 6-7*. Insure the axle is centered under the front-end, using adjustable arms. AND, if the lift is greater than 5 or so inches, install control-arm drop-brackets, or install mid-length or long arms.
But, before doing all of that, insure your front shaft u-joints are in good shape, not binding at all, and that you do have a double-Cardin style front drive shaft. Also insure it's the right length; IE:, the slip joint is not excessively extended.
 
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Backroads said:
all this talk of cut and turn, is this something that everyone has done to their jeeps or what? i've never seen any talk of this until now. So has everyone thats gone 4.5" had to do this? Just wasnt expecting all that....theres no other fix for this? I'm not exactly thrilled about cutting and welding. cutting im good at, welding not so good.

No, cutting and turning is something that is usually done when doing a front axle swop. Often it's full width axles that need to be shorted and seeing that the inner C's need to be removed and re-welded as part of the process in anycase, the caster/pinion relationship can be optimised. Personally I've never heard of people doing it on the HP or LP D 30's, but I'm sure there will be some who's done it. It really isn't difficult to do, but I'd have an engineering shop to the setup of the inner C's with their precision equipment to ensure that left and right caster is exactly the same...then again, if you have adjustable upper and lower control arms it's not that crutial to get left and right 100% the same as you can make minor adjustments on the control arms.

On a 4.5" lift there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to get it running smoothly just by setting up everthing with adjustable control arms. If you've got the fixed lowers already, just get adjustable uppers - there shouldn't really even be a need to opt for the adjustable ball joints. My Jeep is currently at 5.5" (RE 4.5" coils and a spacer in the front) and I still have stock control arms giving me 5 degrees of caster and zero vibes. I do however need the control arms to be a bit longer as the clearance at the lower back of the front wheel arch flare is very close (after trimming the flare in that area).
 
gorman said:
"-----to insure that left and right caster is exactly the same...then again, if you have adjustable upper and lower control arms it's not that crutial to get left and right 100% the same as you can make minor adjustments on the control arms.---"

You can't alter the caster from side-to-side by adjusting control arms; however, playing with front axle thrust angle, by moving one end of the axle forward/rearward, will create the appearance of having changed caster, from the perspective of an alignment machine (operator error!). I believe this is due to the affect of steering axis inclination, and is not true caster change, and is achieved at the expense of various other steering parameters now forced out of tolerance.
The caster needs to be within 0.5* from side-to-side. The correct way to get that is by turning the "C's"; but you can use use adjustable ball joints.
 
I think you guys got me all wrong. And I'm saying all of this with a smile on my face, no dont get offended.

first, I never expected my jeep to be a cadillac. If I remotely cared about having superior ride quality I would have just left it alone. Its just a fun vehicle, nothing more nothing less.
I have all the normal bells and whistles I see everyone else with on my jeep, no fancy stuff just normal stock components...4.0 AW4 242 HIGH pinion d-30 (its a 94) 8.25 in the rear.
I probably should have labeled my thread differently because I think I took that at a wrong angle, I'm more worried about the vibrations than my actual caster setting. I was associated caster setting with the pinion angle and that changing one, would change the other....and thats right I see, but with possible negative effects.
I'm not gonna just live with the vibrations, I see no reason too. I like you am a perfectionist and rattling and probably hurting good parts, dealing with vibrations, isnt gonna cut it for me. I KNOW it can be fixed! and I'm not gonna cut and turn my C's. I dont feel thats necessary in my case.
All I really want, is to bring my pinion up enough to kill the vibrations, or at least cool them down a bit. Its just not normal thats all....I don't care what it does to my caster, I can deal with wandering and anything else that would come along with bad caster angles. Obviously I'm not TRYING to go for bad caster, but like everyones seems to be saying is if you gotta comprimise something, its gotta be caster or pinion angle. I choose the former...

Now to bring up something I noticed in my Rubicon express catalog that I failed to see earlier is that when you buy the 4.5" kit; It comes with upper and lower control arms. Where as the 3" does not....My RC kit, only came with lowers. and its 4.5". It kind of makes sense that since I did put in longer lowers and am using stock uppers, they are just too long to be able to put the pinion into spec. Maybe some people get away with that I duno!!!!!!!! So anyways conclusion to all this is I'm gonna get some RE adjustable uppers and start transfering over to RE like I probably should have from the get go...live and learn.
 
Backroads said:
"---So anyways conclusion to all this is I'm gonna get some RE adjustable uppers and start transfering over to RE like I probably should have from the get go...live and learn.

Great first step.
Sorry for my diatribes, but since it became clear that you are not familiar with XJ front-end geometry, and appeared to be on a quest to understand/solve your vibrations, I thought I'd try to pass on "how to fish", versus just giving you a "fish":greensmok; I hope you can make use of the info, even if you go your own way.
 
Get you pinion angle set right and it should ride better, mine still has the stock uppers too as well as longer lower fixed arms. I'm looking into long arms to push my front axle forward for better handling as well as not having my front driveshaft bottom on full droop it is limited now by the binding of the front suspension bushings and shorter then I really need shocks.
 
With the 0* at the cover, you are running at 9* of caster. Way too much. You could just fit the stock arms in place and shim them up as it is clear that your replacement arms are too long.
You dont have to worry about cutting your C's or offset ball joints for only 4.5". I run at 4" at the front have no problems at all for years now and never had a vibration of any sort.
So either get adjustable uppers that are longer or fit stock length lowers and shim or even WJ arms like I have for a better ride.
 
Thanks gojeep, Sounds like good options for now. My only other concern, and why I was figuring on different uppers is that my bumpstop isnt centered in the spring either, if I was to flex I'm sure its gonna hit the front inside of the spring. I'll play around with it today probably. thanks for the help
 
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