cruiser54
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Prescott, Az
Just use NGKs.
-
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87 Waggy spark plug engine problem pictures!!
- Thread starter Ecomike
- Start date
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
I just may have to try one of these too!!!
http://www.carid.com/1987-jeep-cher...ies-iridium-electrode-pulse-plug-4268468.html
They sound amazing!
http://www.carid.com/1987-jeep-cher...ies-iridium-electrode-pulse-plug-4268468.html
They sound amazing!
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
cruiser54
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Prescott, Az
Just use the NGKs.
Sorry I'm late to the party, but I thought I'd throw my 1 1/4 cents in. I apologize if this has already been covered.
Regarding the fuel injection connector pigtails: Replace all of them. This is my story. I have a '95, 4.6 L stroker. A while after the engine swap, it started missing. It also was throwing a CEL, even before the stroker exchange. Never bothered to read the code. I traced the miss to a flaky cable, not connector on the #5 and/or 6 injector.
Bought 6 new pigtails from Rockauto for $5 a piece. Nice connectors, 6" teflon wire pigtails. I was going to just replace #5 and 6, but by the time I got into the harness and traced and separated the wires, it was only han extra 1 hour to replace all 6, inline spliced, cable extended to firewall, soldered and adhesive shrink tubed.
When I was finished, not only was the miss gone, but the CEL was gone, and I went from 12 to 15 mpg on the highway. Could I have had intermittent other cabling? Did I disturb some other wire? I dunno, but things are a lot better for the effort.
Back when I was in Junior College, about 290 years ago (70s), I spent quite a lot of time in the automotive program. Should taken my certification tests- could have passed them then. Anyway, a 1970s' stock V-8, in good condition, with fresh plugs took from 5-7K volts to fire the plugs. My '68 440 Magnum with 10:1 compression took about 9K volts. A tired engine, with ancient fouled plugs, took from 17-30K. Considering the poorest quality ignition system is capable of putting out 25K, and the 70s GM HEI systems nearly 70K, developing enough voltage to fire a plug in a decent engine, with clean plugs isn't really a big issue. One of the biggest reason for the introduction of High Energy ignitions was to have far in excess the voltage needed to fire a plug, as the smog laws dictated cards has to pass at 50,000 miles, with no maintenance. So, an ignition capable of 50K Volts could still fire worn out plugs.
So, in your case. I'd have to guess it is more of a plug type and heat range issue your fighting, trying to reduce fouling from excessive oil consumption. If only 3 of your plugs are really fouling, and your burning a quart every 1200 miles, the 3 bad cylinders are getting the equivalent of double that amount of oil. And if it is leaking down the valve guides, as opposed to past the rings, that may make matters worse.
Stroker motors are really, really nice! (hint)
David Bricker / SYR
Regarding the fuel injection connector pigtails: Replace all of them. This is my story. I have a '95, 4.6 L stroker. A while after the engine swap, it started missing. It also was throwing a CEL, even before the stroker exchange. Never bothered to read the code. I traced the miss to a flaky cable, not connector on the #5 and/or 6 injector.
Bought 6 new pigtails from Rockauto for $5 a piece. Nice connectors, 6" teflon wire pigtails. I was going to just replace #5 and 6, but by the time I got into the harness and traced and separated the wires, it was only han extra 1 hour to replace all 6, inline spliced, cable extended to firewall, soldered and adhesive shrink tubed.
When I was finished, not only was the miss gone, but the CEL was gone, and I went from 12 to 15 mpg on the highway. Could I have had intermittent other cabling? Did I disturb some other wire? I dunno, but things are a lot better for the effort.
Back when I was in Junior College, about 290 years ago (70s), I spent quite a lot of time in the automotive program. Should taken my certification tests- could have passed them then. Anyway, a 1970s' stock V-8, in good condition, with fresh plugs took from 5-7K volts to fire the plugs. My '68 440 Magnum with 10:1 compression took about 9K volts. A tired engine, with ancient fouled plugs, took from 17-30K. Considering the poorest quality ignition system is capable of putting out 25K, and the 70s GM HEI systems nearly 70K, developing enough voltage to fire a plug in a decent engine, with clean plugs isn't really a big issue. One of the biggest reason for the introduction of High Energy ignitions was to have far in excess the voltage needed to fire a plug, as the smog laws dictated cards has to pass at 50,000 miles, with no maintenance. So, an ignition capable of 50K Volts could still fire worn out plugs.
So, in your case. I'd have to guess it is more of a plug type and heat range issue your fighting, trying to reduce fouling from excessive oil consumption. If only 3 of your plugs are really fouling, and your burning a quart every 1200 miles, the 3 bad cylinders are getting the equivalent of double that amount of oil. And if it is leaking down the valve guides, as opposed to past the rings, that may make matters worse.
Stroker motors are really, really nice! (hint)
David Bricker / SYR
8Mud
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Central Germany
The ideas that are rolling around in my head are basically two fold (and kind of like two BB's bouncing around in an empty tin can). If the fouling is cooked (oil) it turns to carbon (hard fouling) and is often a conductor. This may cause the gap to narrow, which can't be good on a plug that is already fouling.
Wet (oil) fouling seems likely to add more resistance and increase misfires, which can also add to the fouling buildup (either wet fouling or dry fouling).
A double whammy would be to use a hotter plug to get it down into the hotter part of the flame and help cook off the deposits. And a little hotter spark may help getting a good hard spark through wet fouling.
All of this is supposition. Some from my experiences with my old Tornado overhead cam motor that habitually wet (oil) fouled, some just seems logical.
A completely unrelated thought as to the cause of your fouling. Could be valve seals, most times when they act up it is because of excess side play in the push rods, the specs are in the book, you need a dial gauge.
Seems less likely to be your rings, but anything is possible. Though with 130 compression it does seem unlikely, most times the oil rings act up the compression is near a hundred maybe 110. This a tendency and not a rule.
I wonder if you don't have a fuel problem, the cylinder walls are being washed and you lost the glaze? Use a high power flashlight and look in the spark plug hole, see what the piston top looks like and what color the cylinder walls are. Not hard to tell the difference between a glazed cylinder wall and an unglazed cylinder wall. Unglazed cylinder walls pass more oil than glazed walls do. Also look for scratches while you are peering in the park plug hole, not beyond the realm of possibility you have a broken or cracked ring or two. Cracked rings happen sometimes with hydrolock or even head gasket issues. Sometimes fixing the head gasket is only half of the problem.
Running hot plugs can also cause issues, especially at high speeds. Hot plugs are for traffic, cold plugs are for driving across Kansas at 90 MPH. With hotter plugs, especially with the computer controlled high air to fuel ratio motors, you can burn a piston, pits in the top, or worse yet, the "V" burn of death near a piston edge.
And like i said before, theory is one thing, what actually works may be something else.
The resistors in the plugs don't only deal with RFI, they also can condense the spark. Hard to explain, you can see it on an oscilloscope
.
The ignition trigger in the Renix is a square wave and one way they get such a hot spark out of the coil, the field collapses without much of the lost and random energy of other styles of ignition. The field in the coil collapses right now, with little or no slow collapse, with less random RF and a sharper pulse.
It seems plausible that RFI can mess with electronics, most electronics now on days are filtered pretty well (one of the main differences in a high priced sound system and a cheap one is the filters). There are a lot more RF and AC in your electrical system than you would assume anyway. Most is irrelevant until it is relevant. You never really know until trouble happens.
Wet (oil) fouling seems likely to add more resistance and increase misfires, which can also add to the fouling buildup (either wet fouling or dry fouling).
A double whammy would be to use a hotter plug to get it down into the hotter part of the flame and help cook off the deposits. And a little hotter spark may help getting a good hard spark through wet fouling.
All of this is supposition. Some from my experiences with my old Tornado overhead cam motor that habitually wet (oil) fouled, some just seems logical.
A completely unrelated thought as to the cause of your fouling. Could be valve seals, most times when they act up it is because of excess side play in the push rods, the specs are in the book, you need a dial gauge.
Seems less likely to be your rings, but anything is possible. Though with 130 compression it does seem unlikely, most times the oil rings act up the compression is near a hundred maybe 110. This a tendency and not a rule.
I wonder if you don't have a fuel problem, the cylinder walls are being washed and you lost the glaze? Use a high power flashlight and look in the spark plug hole, see what the piston top looks like and what color the cylinder walls are. Not hard to tell the difference between a glazed cylinder wall and an unglazed cylinder wall. Unglazed cylinder walls pass more oil than glazed walls do. Also look for scratches while you are peering in the park plug hole, not beyond the realm of possibility you have a broken or cracked ring or two. Cracked rings happen sometimes with hydrolock or even head gasket issues. Sometimes fixing the head gasket is only half of the problem.
Running hot plugs can also cause issues, especially at high speeds. Hot plugs are for traffic, cold plugs are for driving across Kansas at 90 MPH. With hotter plugs, especially with the computer controlled high air to fuel ratio motors, you can burn a piston, pits in the top, or worse yet, the "V" burn of death near a piston edge.
And like i said before, theory is one thing, what actually works may be something else.
The resistors in the plugs don't only deal with RFI, they also can condense the spark. Hard to explain, you can see it on an oscilloscope
.
The ignition trigger in the Renix is a square wave and one way they get such a hot spark out of the coil, the field collapses without much of the lost and random energy of other styles of ignition. The field in the coil collapses right now, with little or no slow collapse, with less random RF and a sharper pulse.
It seems plausible that RFI can mess with electronics, most electronics now on days are filtered pretty well (one of the main differences in a high priced sound system and a cheap one is the filters). There are a lot more RF and AC in your electrical system than you would assume anyway. Most is irrelevant until it is relevant. You never really know until trouble happens.
cruiser54
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Prescott, Az
Okay, here's mine. I operate and maintain a propane powered delivery truck at work.
Propane requires alot of voltage to fire the plugs because it goes into the combustion chamber dry, not wet.
We must replace plugs and wires every 10K miles to avoid backfiring caused by high resistance in plugs and wires, and then igniting another time and blowing pieces of the intake tract to smitherenes.
The boss was using AC platinum plugs. Backfires were occuring before the 10K interval. I called the company that supplies the replacement parts for the propane system for advice. First thing they asked was what plugs we were using. Turns out we were using the wrong plugs. According to them, the platinums have higher resistance than standard old plugs. So, we starting using AC R43LTS plugs. Truck ran better and would go the full 10K miles without backfiring. We also noticed there was much less white residue on the standard ACs at 10K than with the platinums. But the plug gap would be about .040 from the installed gap of .035.
I decided to try something different. I used NGK Coppers the next time around. Guess what? NO white residue at 10K miles. Gap was at .035, and the center electrode was square, not rounded like the ACs at the same mileage.
Fast forward a bit. I had an intake backfire. REmoved all the plug wires and tested them. The wire going to the one NGK, which did have some residue, had very high resistance. Therefore, I'm thinking the high resistance could very well be the cause of the white residue build-up.
Propane requires alot of voltage to fire the plugs because it goes into the combustion chamber dry, not wet.
We must replace plugs and wires every 10K miles to avoid backfiring caused by high resistance in plugs and wires, and then igniting another time and blowing pieces of the intake tract to smitherenes.
The boss was using AC platinum plugs. Backfires were occuring before the 10K interval. I called the company that supplies the replacement parts for the propane system for advice. First thing they asked was what plugs we were using. Turns out we were using the wrong plugs. According to them, the platinums have higher resistance than standard old plugs. So, we starting using AC R43LTS plugs. Truck ran better and would go the full 10K miles without backfiring. We also noticed there was much less white residue on the standard ACs at 10K than with the platinums. But the plug gap would be about .040 from the installed gap of .035.
I decided to try something different. I used NGK Coppers the next time around. Guess what? NO white residue at 10K miles. Gap was at .035, and the center electrode was square, not rounded like the ACs at the same mileage.
Fast forward a bit. I had an intake backfire. REmoved all the plug wires and tested them. The wire going to the one NGK, which did have some residue, had very high resistance. Therefore, I'm thinking the high resistance could very well be the cause of the white residue build-up.
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
Great input, thanks for sharing!!!!
Yes, I do need to replace the injector wiring pig tail connectors. I have the new ones, just have not done it yet.
8mud and David:
I already know the valve guides are worn, and the entire rocker assemblies are worn and tend to side load the valve stems when opening the valves SOMETIMES. It is part of the clicking noise I hear that comes and goes as the engine warms up Been like that for 60,000 miles and 7 years now). I discovered this when I replaced the valve stem seals on #1 and #2 about 3 months ago. That info is deep in this long winded thread!!! I did that when the excess plug fouling rate on #2 and #1 went from 30,000 miles to 200 miles. The new plugs went from 200 miles to 1600 miles with out issues after replacing the valve stem seals. And only one plug was noticeably fouled on the ground electrode that time. I am inclined to think a better plug on those two cylinders can extend the range between plug cleaning manually. I know eventually the head will need new valve stem guides, guide work and or new valves...etc, and new rocker parts, but I am not ready to do that.
I think the issue is reduce compression combined with some manageable oil leaks at the intake valve seals, and not quite hot enough, robust enough spark plugs to keep up with the harder self cleaning job.
Yes, I do need to replace the injector wiring pig tail connectors. I have the new ones, just have not done it yet.
8mud and David:
I already know the valve guides are worn, and the entire rocker assemblies are worn and tend to side load the valve stems when opening the valves SOMETIMES. It is part of the clicking noise I hear that comes and goes as the engine warms up Been like that for 60,000 miles and 7 years now). I discovered this when I replaced the valve stem seals on #1 and #2 about 3 months ago. That info is deep in this long winded thread!!! I did that when the excess plug fouling rate on #2 and #1 went from 30,000 miles to 200 miles. The new plugs went from 200 miles to 1600 miles with out issues after replacing the valve stem seals. And only one plug was noticeably fouled on the ground electrode that time. I am inclined to think a better plug on those two cylinders can extend the range between plug cleaning manually. I know eventually the head will need new valve stem guides, guide work and or new valves...etc, and new rocker parts, but I am not ready to do that.
I think the issue is reduce compression combined with some manageable oil leaks at the intake valve seals, and not quite hot enough, robust enough spark plugs to keep up with the harder self cleaning job.
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
8Mud said:
We already know that is where the oil was and is coming from. Since we went from 200 miles to 1600 miles before the plugs fouled just after replacing the valve seals, I am now looking at the plug options and a few other things I plan to try to extend the 1600 miles.
I no longer think it might be coolant leaking as water would clean the ceramics, and not leave black carbon and wet oil stick around that I saw after the last two tests (unless the coolant was quenching the spark, which is not happening because the used plugs, while the ceramics were cleaned by me but not to a white clean before I reused them, were sparking just fine for the next tank of gas inspite of some black film still stuck the white ceramic insulators) The missfires it seems were caused by eventual bridging from the ground electrode to the firing electrode, not it seems by a dirty ceramic near as I can tell. The crud is almost all building up on the ground electrode, at least in the early stages. Which tells me the ground electrode is too cold at the lower compression.... But the black ceramic is also an indication that there is room to raise the heat range one step.
Near as I can tell now, when I switched from Bosch to Autolite, I dropped down to a colder plug by one step and did realize it. I switched to the Autolite single platinum because 5-90 used them on Renix with no problems.
So if I go back up one step in heat range to what I was using the prior 6 years on Both Renix rigs with no problem, I may be OK. Note that the NGK's Cruiser54 is so fond of turn out to be the same heat range as the ones I was using in both Renix rigs with no problems. The heat range cross reference guides are easy to miss read!!!! In fact the good 89 rig even runs the hotter Bosch Platinum plug with no problems, and has for about 6 years a now. It is beast as far as power, torque and smooth running go...
So I will be testing that same heat range plug with about 5 different plugs, checking them every tank of gas for a while to see which ones tend to foul less. Then if needed, I have one more Bosch copper plug to test that is one heat range higher.
By the way a friend of mine says the Bosch has an internal gap that fires first, that gap is the source of the infinite resistance on the plug's internal top to bottom electrode path. I have not verified that yet.
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
OK, I will recheck the resistance on the current wire #2 and #1, but I have been through 3 sets of plug wires since 2006, and this set is maybe 4-6 months old, with no change in the fact that there is and was an issue with those two cylinders and not the others.
I ain't buying the wet versus dry cause.
I wonder if the other plugs you switched to were also one step hotter. Also NGK has a better alloy and a slightly different ground shape that others.
cruiser54
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Prescott, Az
Propane goes into the cylinder total vapor. No liquid at all. This info comes from Acme fuel systems who has never steered me wrong.
I'm referring mostly to the white deposits, not oil fouling. That's what we got with the platinums but not with standard plugs.
I'm referring mostly to the white deposits, not oil fouling. That's what we got with the platinums but not with standard plugs.
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
You forget, I am a chemical engineer. 
All I am saying is that is an old wives tail (or similar). It has nothing to with wet versus dry.
Methane may just be a lot harder to ignite at Stoichiometric ratios than Gasoline due to ignition ignitablity properties of the two at Stoich ratios.
There are high and low ratios of flamables to air ratios at which they will not ignite. They are referred to as upper and lower explosive limits. So it seems reasonable that there are ratios that easier and harder to ignite. IIRC lean ratios can be hard to ignite as they get too lean.
But anyway, lets get back on my topic. I pulled the plugs today and junked the Champion plug after seeing the new one bad out of the box. I am running the two copper plus Bosch plugs that are hotter than the Autolites, I think, and hotter than the Champion by one level. They should be pretty close to the NGKs, and the NGKs and 4 other trial plugs or in route to me now.
All I am saying is that is an old wives tail (or similar). It has nothing to with wet versus dry.
Methane may just be a lot harder to ignite at Stoichiometric ratios than Gasoline due to ignition ignitablity properties of the two at Stoich ratios.
There are high and low ratios of flamables to air ratios at which they will not ignite. They are referred to as upper and lower explosive limits. So it seems reasonable that there are ratios that easier and harder to ignite. IIRC lean ratios can be hard to ignite as they get too lean.
But anyway, lets get back on my topic. I pulled the plugs today and junked the Champion plug after seeing the new one bad out of the box. I am running the two copper plus Bosch plugs that are hotter than the Autolites, I think, and hotter than the Champion by one level. They should be pretty close to the NGKs, and the NGKs and 4 other trial plugs or in route to me now.
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
Great news folks!!! My selection of exotic OEM equivalent spark plugs came in
First The new hotter by one level, single platinum, four side ground Bosch plug I got does show a normal internal resistance, about 6200 ohms so the two single platinum Bosch plugs I pulled that started this thread and were many years old, may have simply been bad internally, died a natural death? Then when I went to Autolites they were one level colder like the Champion copper, so that was perhaps the second problem.
I will verify this later.
The NGKs are about 4500 ohms.
4200 ohms on the Nitrode plug.
6800 ohms on the E3 plug.
The Nitrode and E3 plugs look like NASA quality hardware, I am very impressed. I hope they work as well as they look. There is an obvious visual difference in the Autolite plug ceramic extended length versus every other plug I have in front of me!!! That is related to plug ceramic operating temperature or hotness. So I have high expectations for finding one or more plugs that solve my problem for a while.
First The new hotter by one level, single platinum, four side ground Bosch plug I got does show a normal internal resistance, about 6200 ohms so the two single platinum Bosch plugs I pulled that started this thread and were many years old, may have simply been bad internally, died a natural death? Then when I went to Autolites they were one level colder like the Champion copper, so that was perhaps the second problem.
I will verify this later.
The NGKs are about 4500 ohms.
4200 ohms on the Nitrode plug.
6800 ohms on the E3 plug.
The Nitrode and E3 plugs look like NASA quality hardware, I am very impressed. I hope they work as well as they look. There is an obvious visual difference in the Autolite plug ceramic extended length versus every other plug I have in front of me!!! That is related to plug ceramic operating temperature or hotness. So I have high expectations for finding one or more plugs that solve my problem for a while.
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
Forgot to mention that the 3-4 month old plug wires were reading about 2,400 Ohms per foot. Seemed on the high to me?
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
The gremlins had kids and they moved to the Ignition lock. Thought it was slider ignition switch, pulled it, and no had to be the lock. Such fun.
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
Not the Droids I am looking for, The Gremlins have called a time out, 4 month old Gear box leak, gear box from Leaks-A-Lot-A-ZONE, 3 year old lower Rad hose took a leak, and the the rack between the iggy switch and key lock is in bind. Maybe time for July 4th fireworks here?Hasta
- Location
- MilkyWay Galaxy
I got the beast running again. Changed the water pump, and radiator hose and finally discovered the real leak was the power steering pump plastic reservoir to case seal.
Dang near could not find a power steering pump in stock with a new plastic reservoir anymore. So save your old plastic reservoirs folks!!!!! All they want to sell now is the bare pump with no reservoir.
Back on the road, new stickers, and testing the spark plugs again. So this thread is back from the dead.
I also still need to figure out what is binding up in the lock ignition column area and fix it. Seems to be an area of the column no one has ever worked on?
Dang near could not find a power steering pump in stock with a new plastic reservoir anymore. So save your old plastic reservoirs folks!!!!! All they want to sell now is the bare pump with no reservoir.
Back on the road, new stickers, and testing the spark plugs again. So this thread is back from the dead.
I also still need to figure out what is binding up in the lock ignition column area and fix it. Seems to be an area of the column no one has ever worked on?
