APN header install...now I have a leak

[andrew2516]

Well the title pretty much says it all...I did the apn header install and now I can hear a vacuum leak pretty bad. You can reall notice it when I shut the engine off, right before it dies. Everything went together pretty smoothly...it took about 6.5 hours.

I got all the bolts in and pretty tight...I thought maybe it would go away after I drove it a while...but it hasn't yet after a day of driving. I cleaned all the old gasket off pretty good so I don't really see where my problem was. It sounds like its coming from the front of the engine. I don't really want to tear this back apart and put it back together. I did break the front guide on the intake when i was taking it apart but I didn't think it would effect it. Anyone else have any problems with the gasket they give you?

any thoughts on this? Should I have added something else to the gasket?

[POSXJGuy]

hey man, i just installed the same header myself from apn.

when you say vaccum leak do you mean exhaust leak? or is the engine sucking air like from a disconnected hose? is it constant or is it stopping at some point at all?

in doing so i used copper gasket spray on the gasket and needed to take some metal off the header to make it mesh between the intake runners. not much, just a tiny bit down. maybe that was just my case though. otherwise i was having a hard time getting it to sit flat on the guide studs.

did you follow torque sequence on this?

i had to torque down twice to get the thing to settle. its a pain removing the PS pump but i had to do so. then i was able to reach all bolts by fele from the front of the motor.

i have a weird ticking as its warming up then it goes away. i have checked everything and think its the lifter now. im trying MM oil.

If and when i do find that this APN headed is leaking from a spot like where the tubes go into the plate i will give APN a hard time. I have a sneaking suspicion that i just might have a leak in the area where the tubes go into the plate that bolts to the block. i see a lottle white soot in the front. i think they should have welded those areas as well instead of just the inside parts.

maybe we found a weak link in APN's header. too good to be true for the price? We'll find out!

If I find out its leaking where I suspect I will weld them up but this is something that should not happen. thats the difference between Banks and APN, Banks has the tubes welded on the plate inside and out.

I'll report back with findings.

[andrew2516]

Mine actually sounds like a cone filter when i shut it off. I didn't add anything to my gasket when I put it on and now I think I should have. I can hear the sucking noise basically the whole time the engine is on. All of my hoses are connected back up but it seems like the intake is leaking right where it mounts to the head.

[waxer]

hey man, i just installed the same header myself from apn.

when you say vaccum leak do you mean exhaust leak? or is the engine sucking air like from a disconnected hose? is it constant or is it stopping at some point at all?

in doing so i used copper gasket spray on the gasket and needed to take some metal off the header to make it mesh between the intake runners. not much, just a tiny bit down. maybe that was just my case though. otherwise i was having a hard time getting it to sit flat on the guide studs.

did you follow torque sequence on this?

i had to torque down twice to get the thing to settle. its a pain removing the PS pump but i had to do so. then i was able to reach all bolts by fele from the front of the motor.

i have a weird ticking as its warming up then it goes away. i have checked everything and think its the lifter now. im trying MM oil.

If and when i do find that this APN headed is leaking from a spot like where the tubes go into the plate i will give APN a hard time. I have a sneaking suspicion that i just might have a leak in the area where the tubes go into the plate that bolts to the block. i see a lottle white soot in the front. i think they should have welded those areas as well instead of just the inside parts.

maybe we found a weak link in APN's header. too good to be true for the price? We'll find out!

If I find out its leaking where I suspect I will weld them up but this is something that should not happen. thats the difference between Banks and APN, Banks has the tubes welded on the plate inside and out.

I'll report back with findings.

Your ticking sound that starts when the engine is cold and goes away after it has warmed up definitely sounds like an exhaust leak.

[waxer]

I really liked the price I saw with these APN headers, but I've also been seeing a lot of people having sealing problems. Cheaper product = cheaper quality it seems.

I'd be willing to bet that if you put the gasket mating surface of the header on a perfectly flat surface, that the header would have all kinds of high and low spots, which makes me want to hold off on buying one for now.

[POSXJGuy]

i think we best keep an eye on our issues so if and when we find out its the result of bad manufacturing we can go back to apn for some feedback. i think the fact that my headersdidnt fitright out of the box and required some clearancing should have been the first red flag. i'll see what happens and go from there. maybe i'll save for a banks.

[90xj06]

personally i like my old leaking piece of crap. maby i will get around to fixing it.

[XJCreeper]

Sorry to hear you guys are having problems with the APN headers. I did a little research when I bought my exhaust manifold and found this one from 1A Auto was of good quality and price although a little more than APN.
Lifetime Header
http://www.1aauto.com/1A/ExhaustManifolds/Jeep/Cherokee/1AEEK00001/400485
They also offer a cheap one to but I can only recommend the one above I've tried.
Basic Header
http://www.1aauto.com/1A/ExhaustManifolds/Jeep/Cherokee/1AEEK00002/427833
When I installed the 1A auto one the mating surface was perfectly flat so it fit tight. It's been install for about a year and a half and no leaks. Check them out if you guys want to give up on APN.

[waxer]

Sorry to hear you guys are having problems with the APN headers. I did a little research when I bought my exhaust manifold and found this one from 1A Auto was of good quality and price although a little more than APN.
Lifetime Header
http://www.1aauto.com/1A/ExhaustManifolds/Jeep/Cherokee/1AEEK00001/400485
They also offer a cheap one to but I can only recommend the one above I've tried.
Basic Header
http://www.1aauto.com/1A/ExhaustManifolds/Jeep/Cherokee/1AEEK00002/427833
When I installed the 1A auto one the mating surface was perfectly flat so it fit tight. It's been install for about a year and a half and no leaks. Check them out if you guys want to give up on APN.


Those are made in China as well. I have yet to see anything metal that is made in China to be of good quality. Just my opinion.

[POSXJGuy]

i wonder if they can send one of those Chinese welders over to my place and help me finish the APN header then. I'd like to get those spots welded up asap!

[XJCreeper]

Find me a good quality USA one I can afford and I'll do it. Problem is the politicians in charge have sold our manufacturing to China, Mexico and lord know where else. I think even the $400 banks header is made in Mexico. I try to by American but there just isn't many American made parts that are easy to come by out there anymore. How can we change this. Is it time to start slapping down some tarrifs and being patriot Americans again! :patriot:. Is it time to hijack this thread!

[POSXJGuy]

Find me a good quality USA one I can afford and I'll do it. Problem is the politicians in charge have sold our manufacturing to China, Mexico and lord know where else. I think even the $400 banks header is made in Mexico. I try to by American but there just isn't many American made parts that are easy to come by out there anymore. How can we change this. Is it time to start slapping down some tarrifs and being patriot Americans again! :patriot:. Is it time to hijack this thread!

i agree man, when i go out buying tooks i want and prefer american. i wont even look at chinese made tools. i should have the same policy for the parts i buy.

heck, i have an international vehicle! my xj made in mexico, my tires made in the usa, my headers made in china.

the price was good but if i find its the apn header thats faulty im gonna have to call apn and ask em for a refund. i wont mind working on the xj again but i want a good part in there even if only paying 120.00.

[XJCreeper]

Try to buy USA when I can is my policy too. Thank god good old USA tools are available still and of the best quality. To bad Sear sold out Craftsman to China but I guess this is the future for the tool market too. Auto parts, clocks, appliances, ect seem to be no longer made in our beloved USA.

If the politician keep this up everything will be sold off to the highest bidding country. More and more it just seems like the USA made option for the aveage Joe is disappearing. Our politicians desperately need to level the playing field against the slave labor competition. Otherwise we'll continue to sell our future to buy cheap slave labor made stuff now. Good for now bad for latter. An interesting thing is now that they got us all buying cheap crap I've been seeing a trend for them to make and sell "quality parts" using america tooling/engineer. I call this the next tier of thier products that are supposedly about quality and making better stuff. This way they can take out the few American industries left making the quality stuff. Hopefully their tanks, planes, and ships are made of the same crap they mostly send us.

[POSXJGuy]

Try to buy USA when I can is my policy too. Thank god good old USA tools are available still and of the best quality. To bad Sear sold out Craftsman to China but I guess this is the future for the tool market too. Auto parts, clocks, appliances, ect seem to be no longer made in our beloved USA.

If the politician keep this up everything will be sold off to the highest bidding country. More and more it just seems like the USA made option for the aveage Joe is disappearing. Our politicians desperately need to level the playing field against the slave labor competition. Otherwise we'll continue to sell our future to buy cheap slave labor made stuff now. Good for now bad for latter. An interesting thing is now that they got us all buying cheap crap I've been seeing a trend for them to make and sell "quality parts" using america tooling/engineer. I call this the next tier of thier products that are supposedly about quality and making better stuff. This way they can take out the few American industries left making the quality stuff. Hopefully their tanks, planes, and ships are made of the same crap they mostly send us.


i agree with you, as far as i can see people are looking to lower production costs and going overseas. all the power tool manufacturers are all going overseas as well.

i think for the time being while China is in transition of taking business and manufacturing they in time will have to provide the quality and product support for the titems they make. they can and do have the ability but its just a matter of time when things get to the quality that the US has.

I know for political reasons some people don't want to buy Chinese made products and that is also a valid reason. They are one of the world's worst human rights abusers and continue to persecute people for different reasons and in different regions like tibet. This is another aspect of buying Chinese products that irks me as well but in all honesty you can't avoid products made in China very easily because of the fact that they are pretty much in every market now.

My favorite pasttime is getting even more fun as I prowl the flea markets looking for older craftsman tools that work real good. Its cheaper than buying new and I still get the American Made craftsman tools.

Oh yeah, my parents are native Taiwanese form the Island and they are not too fond of the Chinese for things that happened around WW2. They had friends and family disappear courtesy of the Chinese. That kind of rubbed off on me but I would be hypocritical for me to say I avoid Chinese products altogether.

Nothin like American made tools though!

[andrew2516]

anyone think it could turn into something bad if i leave it go?

[POSXJGuy]

anyone think it could turn into something bad if i leave it go?

andrew, i would be concerned about temps running high or if the leak is blowing on something like a wire or a motor mount. it can also cause everything south of the header to run hotter i think. i am not positive on this.

i would try and narrow it down as much as possible and maybe do it over. now you know whats all involved. also check for any loose lines you may have missed.

because there is a leak somewhere the o2 sensor will be reading different and probably compensate for the reading by increasing or decreasing fuel. it would help to have it back to normal.

try torquing the bolts and feel around for leaks with your hand. easier to access all the bolts under the apn header if you remove the PS pump. i hated doing it but i had to. it was buggin me.

i found out my noise was a sticky lifter and not the apn header i was harping on. either way i did check torque twice after the install to make sure it seated well.

good luck.

[andrew2516]

andrew, i would be concerned about temps running high or if the leak is blowing on something like a wire or a motor mount. it can also cause everything south of the header to run hotter i think. i am not positive on this.

i would try and narrow it down as much as possible and maybe do it over. now you know whats all involved. also check for any loose lines you may have missed.

because there is a leak somewhere the o2 sensor will be reading different and probably compensate for the reading by increasing or decreasing fuel. it would help to have it back to normal.

try torquing the bolts and feel around for leaks with your hand. easier to access all the bolts under the apn header if you remove the PS pump. i hated doing it but i had to. it was buggin me.

i found out my noise was a sticky lifter and not the apn header i was harping on. either way i did check torque twice after the install to make sure it seated well.

good luck.

How did the MM oil work?

I'm in the process of taking off the header/ intake and putting copper rtv on the apn gasket. I just have to put my fuel rail back together and I'll be able to test for leaks tomarrow.

[POSXJGuy]

How did the MM oil work?

I'm in the process of taking off the header/ intake and putting copper rtv on the apn gasket. I just have to put my fuel rail back together and I'll be able to test for leaks tomarrow.

hey Andrew,

you are a good man for workin on this. its a pain in the ass but it will be worth it. when you get the header and intake off, lay them on a piece of cardboard and make sure they are meshing ok. the runners between the header pipes. use cardboard so you dont ding them up. i had to do some clearancing to make them fit right. just enough room to slide in and out without touching.

the MM oil worked well. one day and the ticking was just about gone. It was only in the mornings, only lasted a couple of minutes, started a minute after startup and ended about 2 minutes after it had been idling a bit. seems like a common problem with these engines. i will change it out this weekend.

i also used the permatex copper but in spray form on my install. i think after making sure the intake and header line up ok you'll be able to seat it flat and torque bolts down to spec. should be all set after this work.

[lloyd]

I've installed 3 of these headers so far and know of at least 6 others.. All installed with no problems with stock intakes and exhaust pipe.

The only problem is when using a 99+ intake. Here's a writeup on the install and what needs to be clearanced: http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=84418

Good Luck!

[andrew2516]

I think my problem was not installing the bolts in the correct order...also this time when I took it back apart I added copper RTV stuff to the gasket. I started it for a minute and didn't hear the vacuum noise like when I turned it off before. I still gotta get the oxy sensor hooked up and secure the fuel lines onto the fuel rail.

Overall it seems like a nice header...I wouldn't pay 400+ for a performance banks header or anything like that when I'm not using the jeep for street racing...I would rather put my money towards suspension and stuff that actually helps offroad.

[andrew2516]

I just wanted to reply and let everyone know that it wasn't the apn header giving me problems...I put some copper RTV on the gasket and torqued everything closer to spec than the first time and the header/intake are sealed.

Defanitly worth the $120...beats 400+ for banks or another aftermarket.

[andrew2516]

Also wanted to let you guys know that if you know what you are doing...the manifold swap can be done in 2 hours with basic tools!...I found this out on my second time.

[jeepsrock]

hey andrew can u outline the steps to do it in 2 hours ... any performace boosts u feel.

pete

[andrew2516]

hey andrew can u outline the steps to do it in 2 hours ... any performace boosts u feel.

pete

Basically the same as any other write up for this header. It's just once you have done it once you can go through it pretty quickly. I didn't need to mark anything because I knew where it went and I also didn't need to clean out the intake which saved a lot of time. Also, once you learn how to squeeze your arm in between the header and block and know where the bolts go in and come out...that also saves time.

I know my flowmaster 40 sounds a lot better now that I can hear it instead of my crack! It may be to soon to say though but it seems like I am also getting better mileage than i was with the old header.

[jeepsrock]

The reason i ask what i did was becuase everyone who posts directions on how to do this procedure differs, For example some ppl say to remove the injectors and fuel rail while others say that is totally not needed ?

anyway i am about to have enough from my stcok header and just want to make a good decision that i wont regret, one that i usually do with cheaper parts.

pete

[POSXJGuy]

Basically the same as any other write up for this header. It's just once you have done it once you can go through it pretty quickly. I didn't need to mark anything because I knew where it went and I also didn't need to clean out the intake which saved a lot of time. Also, once you learn how to squeeze your arm in between the header and block and know where the bolts go in and come out...that also saves time.

I know my flowmaster 40 sounds a lot better now that I can hear it instead of my crack! It may be to soon to say though but it seems like I am also getting better mileage than i was with the old header.

So Andrew, if you say it was not the APN header giving you problems, what was the problem?

Was it something left undone?

Thanks for any info. Glad it worked out!

[andrew2516]

I'm pretty sure it was my fault for not tightening down the bolts exactly in order and also not torque them down to spec. When I redid the gasket I added copper RTV, because I didn't want to take that all apart...and feel like I didn't really do anything to fix it. When I put it back together I followed the correct order installing the bolts and I also didn't tighten them down how I normally do with everything else(tight). They were pretty close to 24 ft/lbs this time.

It sounds great now though! The apn header is defanitly worth the $120, as you probably know. I don't see why people spend $400+ on something that does not add a meaningful amount of horsepower.

Thanks for the replys!...I put this on like three other forums and this is the only one I really got help from.

edit: I love that name "POSXJguy"...I called mine that a few times when it was leaking.

[jeepsrock]

Isnt 24 foot pounds pretty loose ?

On the included gasket , can u clarify what you guys dress it with ? Do u use copper spray on both sides or do u use copper RTV ????

pete

[andrew2516]

Isnt 24 foot pounds pretty loose ?

On the included gasket , can u clarify what you guys dress it with ? Do u use copper spray on both sides or do u use copper RTV ????

pete

24 ft/lbs is loose but thats what they are supposed to be. I used copper RTV(ultra high temp copper gasket) on both sides of the gasket. I normally never add RTV to a gasket but everyone said it was good stuff and I just wanted to get it fixed.

[purplexj]

Just got my 99 up intake w/injectors and plan to install a header. My XJ is a 92 and the stock header is not cracked or leaking w/almost 200k. I have had 2 XJs and never knew this was a problem.

[jeepsrock]

To be honest with you i am sick of hearing that loud crack in my header and not my flowmasters..lol.
Is this effecting my performance / mileage in any way ?

How long has the longest person in here had the apn headers ? whats the biggest complaint problem ?

Thanks
pete

[andrew2516]

To be honest with you i am sick of hearing that loud crack in my header and not my flowmasters..lol.
Is this effecting my performance / mileage in any way ?

How long has the longest person in here had the apn headers ? whats the biggest complaint problem ?

Thanks
pete

just buy it!

there was another thread somewhere about it. search for apn header.

[jeepsrock]

Well guys i got the header installed last week and solved a few other problems. The issue that i am having thats relavant to the header is that after driving the jeep and shutting it off, the header is making loud ticking noise. I think this is because of th heat but i though it would go away.

pete

[POSXJGuy]

man, if thats the only thing happening now its nothin! i have heard many a new cars from factorys do that and im sure many folks would trade that sound for one of their problems! congrats on the swap!

[jeepsrock]

Well its intresting because the ticking isnt happennig from under the jeep or anything but rather the portion that attaches to the block and i am hoping the ticking isnt representing any fatigue that the block/header might be having.

Another thing is there seems to be a whine/whistle that is coming from that area of the engine. I cant tell if its a PS pump related or a vac leak of some sort. I cant hear precisely enough with the sound of the engine and exhaust.

Pete

[gradon]

A few weeks ago I put on the 99 intake manifold and torqued the header a little more and I noticed mine was ticking when I shut it off--just the header cooling down. I also changed my o-rings on my injectors when I put the fuel rail back on. One the rings got pinched and so air was whistling in. Try pouring water at the bottom of each injector to see if it gets sucked in/changes the pitch of the whistle. You can also try twisting each injector a little and see if that changes the noise. If its not an injector, than your gasket has a leak somewhere, or there is a leak at your downpipe.

[jeepsrock]

Thanks for the advice gradon , in that case maybe i will just leave the bolts and they will loosen over time and that noise will go away.

I have searched for air leaks and i cant find anything.. I tried spraying the injectors with no results. I checked the man gasket and that seems pretty solid.

Pete

[andrew2516]

UPDATE: This header has been leaking slightly for a while now. At first when i put this all back together it didn't leak for about 8 months then one day on a long trip it started up again.

A few weeks ago I went out and looked at it and decided to check the torque on some of the bolts. I ended up snapping the front stud off inside the head. So I decided since its winter I might as well bring the jeep to a shop instead of playing around with tapping that out in the cold.

The guys at the shop found out that the header and the intake would not fit together so they had to grind some of the intake towards the rear. Since then my jeep has had a huge increase in power and its not leaking anymore.

I never really considered this because my jeep is a 93' and I've always heard that there shouldn't be problems fittting these on with the older intakes.

Anyway thanks for the help guys I just wanted to update this for future readers.

[mrtosh]

Odd. I don't see how some just bolt on and go and some have to grind down the intake... Has anybody done the swap without pulling the fuel rail?

[andrew2516]

Odd. I don't see how some just bolt on and go and some have to grind down the intake... Has anybody done the swap without pulling the fuel rail?

I agree...I never looked into it because I have only ever heard that you need to grind down the 99+ intakes unless a previous owner swapped a newer intake onto mine(doubt it).

Anyone know if there is something that stands out as a difference between the older and newer intakes? If so I'll go look and let you guys know.

[mrtosh]

I actually just finished this install tonight on my '98. You can tell that the APN is quite a bit thicker on the mounting plate and that the washer is not exactly flush on the intake/exhaust. Ended up putting some Copper RTV on the gasket and no leaks(knock on wood anyways)... I could see maybe grinding down right where the washer would sit on the header but don't think it's worth the time to do so...

[lloyd]

Older intake in square looking and newer is round looking.
http://www.wiedenman.com/pub/intake/
Here's link (from page 2 this thread) to complete install and other info about:
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=84418