Best track bar frame mount?

[Goatman]

I have always thought that the factory track bar frame mount was the stoutest, but since mine has cracked badly, I need to replace it with something else. I know Rusty and Rubicon Express make them, does anyone else? I've seen both of these and the stock part break, and so I still plan to beef up whatever I get. Just wondering what else might be out there that I haven't seen, and if there are any significant experinces with the strength of this particular part. I'm not interested in any bashing.....I've seen parts from nearly every manufacturer fail.....just looking for some more info before I decide what to buy.

My stock mount cracked due to metal fatigue, not at a seam or weld, on the rear side. I carefully welded up the crack inside and out, and eventually added a cross frame brace. Last week on the Dusy Trail, near the top of Thompson Hill, the mount cracked badly on both the front and rear sides and bent badly to the outside (no left turn ability). We were able to get it bent back and put a strong strap on it and I welded it up in camp that evening. The brace also broke, which doesn't say much for the design of my brace, and also opens a discussion of how a brace should be built and mounted. The metal on the mount is so fatigued that a new crack began below the other welded up crack (not on the edge of the weld) before I got back from my vacation.

[Kaczman]

Do you have any 1/4" or 3/8" stock laying around the shop? It looks like it would be easy enough to make one up for cheap, and at the same time you would then be able to set the track bar angle for your raised steering. I thought RE and Rusty's brackets were built with a bit of drop in them, but I've never really looked at them.
-Jon

[What Rd]

I had the same thought. Why not make one up from scratch? You have the stock one to use as a guide in deciding where to make it beefier and/or otherwise braced. If nothing else it'd be an interesting experiment to see how well it would hold up relative to the stocker and existing aftermarket ones.

[RCP Phx]

As always I cant say enough good things about the RE XD Trackbar and bracket!Everyone I wheel with has eventually gone this route.The bracket is very well made/sturdy and the new ones are already drilled for a brace.Ive had mine for about two years now with zero maintanance except to grease it.

[XJZ]

I have no experience wih this product, but Mark at ORGS MFg has come up with this........ http://www.orgsmfg.com/product/fabparts.htm (bottom of pg.) I'm sure it's just as stout as any of his other products, which is to say there's a very good chance it's overkill :) . Besides, he's a NAXJA sponsor, check it out!!

[Goatman]

I'm trying to get away from the stock mount, since I need to make a change. My old one was already modified to take a JJ horizontally, and the metal still fatigued and cracked in the stock section of the mount. I know I could add metal to the sides of the mount, sort of boxing in the edges of the formed steel, but my coil spring hits the outside of the mount so I'm looking for a mount that has more clearance. I'm becoming annoyed with the squeaking from the coils rubbing on things, and am looking for ways to get away from that (I know, coilovers, but I'm not ready for more fabbing at this time).

I don't want to make my own mount at this point, too little time with too many other things to do. I already have to grind the welds off of my current mount, since it's welded to the frame to keep it from moving around......finally welded the SOB after getting tired of continually tightening it and listening to it creak.

No matter which one I end up getting, it's going to get some additional bracing, and will get welded to the frame.

[vintagespeed]

I like the ORGS piece that adds on to the stock mount, with a little beefing it'd be a good choice. I ended up making my own but that was to clear the hoops and hopefully be stronger than a stock one. If it causes me problems I'll whip one up out of 1/4" for the main body with a 3/16 pocket for the JJ.

Here's some pics of the mount:

http://www.rockxj.com/images/TB/rawbkt.jpg
http://www.rockxj.com/images/TB/bling.jpg
http://www.rockxj.com/images/TB/mounted.jpg

Too much beer causes weld boogers.....

:D

[KarmirXJ]

mount looks pretty good... think of going into business?:D

[Gary E]

on the RE ones you saw break where did they break, just so I know a little bit better where to look?

I can't remember if you looked at my junk or not but It seems to be holding fine. but I have not put anywhere near the trail miles on it that you have/or do. but its an RE bracket, rustys steering box brace, and a homemade trackbar brace. fwiw I would not run a trackbar brace without a steering box brace.

RE would probably be the quickest easiest option, order from your favorite vendor and have it drop shipped. especially if you want to be rolling labor day weekend. I don't know how much their trackbar brace is but if its 40-50 or less it may not be worth fabricating. that being said they are easy to make, I also welded on a tab for a limiting strap, and they are nice to use with a highlift, you can wrap a strap around the TB brace and the axle to keep the wheel from drooping out.

[Jes]

Originally posted by Gary E
fwiw I would not run a trackbar brace without a steering box brace.



Why, may I ask? I didn't bother putting my steering box brace back on after I installed the ORGS SBS kit and I am running a trackbar brace.

Jes

[Gary E]

Of course you may ask :)

I have not really done a finite element analysis of the front subframe of the xj, but I am mostly going off of Crashes last fordyce run.

I think in a stock XJ the front subrame flexes from the cowl to the front bumper, flexing more at the steering box and less towards the cowl. of course on the street and mild offroading the flex is minimal. With bigger tires and more difficult trails the subframe is put to and past its limit so we get cracks. If you have it solidly braced to the trackbar mount stress is moved instead of from the cowl to the steering box, to the trackbar brace to the steering box. The same amount of stress over a smaller area fatigues the metal much more leading to more cracks.

back to Andys rig, right after he put in the trackbar brace in he broke some spot welds or something cracked up near the end of the frame just past the steering box. (you would know better than I since you know his rig better) Also having a rigidly mounted bumper all the steering stress was placed inbetween the bumper and the trackbar brace. which is of course where the box and where a steering box brace would be.

Of course you having the orgs steering reinforcement kit which adds much needed reinforcement to the area. So its kind of a wildcard. Still in your shoes I would run the SB brace to spread the load more and be a backup. It seems that even with a broken bolt or some cracks the brace is more likely to hold it together to lessen damage and get off the trail or perhaps home.

This is my theory, and is a theory and not a law. Either leave it all to flex or ladder frame it to keep the flex out. By ladder frame I mean make it strong all the way, trackbar brace, SB brace, and real front bumper. I think all three are needed, as one or two of the components may just put the stress in smaller areas.

Richard, another thing to think about which you probably allready have is the clearance between your 44 and the drop put in the RE bracket, at about 6 inches of lift the trackbar brace would hit my Upper control arm where it bolts on to the axle.

[Jes]

Ya, I get what you're saying.
Looking at my setup though, the only thing a steering box brace would do is to help keep the steering box mounting bolts from shearing off. There is no flex at my steering box so the end of the box(where the brace mounts) doesn't move at all in relation to the opposite "frame" rail.
I'll probably put it back on for the heck of it, when I find some time.

Jes

[vintagespeed]

Originally posted by KarmirXJ
mount looks pretty good... think of going into business?:D

I'm now building everything in my 3d modeler first and then fabbing, talk about an improvement! Makes me wish I could build all my mounts over again, lol. Here's a sample of some of the new stuff.

http://www.rockxj.com/images/UCA_plated4.jpg

Thanks for the compliment. :D

http://www.rockxj.com/images/ghettofablogo.jpg

[Goatman]

I'm sure my current track bar mount hangs as low or lower than the RE mount will, so that shouldn't be a problem. Mine is the stock mount with a bracket added to the bottom so the JJ can be mounted horozontally, very similar to the ORGS design. The only difference is that mine is bolted through the stock mount and then welded. I don't have an upper arm on that side, so arm clearance isn't an issue.

The whole subject of track bar and steering box braces is far from being resolved. My goal is to make the whole structure as rigid as possible, but it will still flex. I've cracked the frame with and without braces, so don't have any definitive conclusions. I was surprised that the mount fatigued and cracked like it did with the brace, which leads me to believe that the design of the brace somehow contributed to the cracking. Unfortunately, it also cracked before the brace went on, so again, nothing conclusive.

I am going to change the design of the next brace. I think I'll use a rod end on the mount side and a poly bushing on the frame side, rather than making it all rigid like the last one was. This should allow some movement without increasing the stress to the track bar mount. I'm also running a steering box brace, and have a plate added to the inside of the frame, but have no firm opinion on that either. I did see a new crack in the outside of the frame next to the top steering box bolt, so the bumper needs to come off and and some additional repairs made to the outside of the frame. Sort of hard to do now, since my cage structure ties into the bumper from under the fenders......... :rolleyes:

[vintagespeed]

Richard, get the SBS. It's well designed and worth the $$$$. I finally welded mine in last weekend. Do you think that a single poly bushing will have more 'give' in it then 2 Johnny Joints?

[Goatman]

Originally posted by vintagespeed
Richard, get the SBS. It's well designed and worth the $$$$. I finally welded mine in last weekend. Do you think that a single poly bushing will have more 'give' in it then 2 Johnny Joints?

I can't use the SBS, I'm too far down the road with what I've already done. I have a nice plate formed to the inside of the frame, and the bottom of the frame is plated, and the bumper has one of the steering box bolts running through it. The new crack is a small, short one, from the top bolt hole to the small corner at the top. My bumper cannot be removed. Between the tubing attached to it and the fact that I welded the bumper mount to the frame to deal with another frame crack, it's not coming off. I think I'll fix the small crack, then add a small piece of plate to the top of the bumper mount and run the bolt through that plate. That will give me two out of three box bolts running through 1/4" plate, and I can include the 3rd one if I want to.

I don't want to mess with JJ's for a brace. I'd use the rod end for simplicity, and the bushing for some give. Both would allow a slight amount of movement as the frame twists. If I can satisfy myself that the track bar mount is beefy enough, I might not even use a brace. And, if I get the rest of the steering box bolts through the 1/4" bumper mount, I'll also remove the steering brace.

Damn, I'll never get that front bumper off so I can replace it with a lighter pre-runner style. :D

[vintagespeed]

Hehe, I like that bumper! You want to use a pose-runner bumper instead of that nice beef you have there? Bah, there goes whatever little respect I had left for you. :D I was off a little about the JJs, I thought you were rebuilding the TB itself. I built my bracket with a slot for a crossbrace, and plan on building one but I was going to make it rigid. Not a good idea?

[Goatman]

Evidently, it's not a good idea to make the brace rigid. Mine was rigid, and if it had worked properly there should have been no way that the mount would have cracked and fish-mouthed like it did. The brace should have held it in place and reduced the force against it. Instead, I can only assume that the brace increased the force against the mount, some evidence of which is that the mount cracked before the brace broke. The brace broke where I had designed that it would have a little give, and it broke because the mount was moving sideways and so the brace was having to bend a little.....it broke where it had to bend.

When I welded it back together, I also just welded the broken end of the brace back to the mount, figuring it couldn't hurt, and I'd keep my eye on it. After awhile, a new crack started in the mount (still in the section of the stock part) right above where I had welded the brace. Obviously, my track bar mount is so metal fatigued that there isn't a strong spot left on it, but it did show that the rigidly mounted brace puts too much force on the mount.......the opposite of what we're after. I was only driving mountain roads by this time, so I just put a strap on it and watched it, and it didn't crack any further.

So, I think a rigid mount from frame to frame might work, like a new crossmember, and then have a real strong track bar mount. Or, go ahead and attach it to the mount, but make the brace so it can pivot some, and/or have a little give in it like from a poly bushing. I also accept that metal can just fail after a long time of hard use, and mine has definitely had hard use over a long period of time. This rig has been wheeled on the Hammers, Rubicon, and everywhere else for about eight years now, and is always driven to the trail.....as far as Moab and CO.

So, I'm just demonstrating what all of the rest of you have to look forward too......... :eek: :D :D ;)

[vintagespeed]

I was also considering making a crossmember separate from the TB brace that might alleviate some of the stress there. It makes sense that there would be alot of flexing between the front bumper mount & tranny crossbrace without anything inbetween. Would building a good crossmember under the motor area like a V8 has make an improvement?

[Gary E]

the area right above the weld also lost any heat treat or work hardening it once had before the weld.

[SeanP]

My new track bar braced hasn't failed at all, even with all the web wheeling I do ;)

IMHO, you need to brace the mount to the other frame rail. Last year, my trackbar mount was moving like crazy with steering input, even with my small 35s. Short of sleeving the inside, outside and bottom of the frame around the trackbar to prevent flex, I think our braces are still a good idea to spread the loads coming up the track bar. I did BTW, sleeve the outside of the frame rail the .25 plate (about 4"x13" piece with holes drilled to accomodate the track bar bolts.

Works great from my chair here!

SeanP

[KarmirXJ]

What the heck is this? some sort of mount?---->http://www.rockxj.com/images/UCA_plated4.jpg

whatever it is it looks mighty taisty:D should fly you over, so you can make me one, Ill figure out what to do with it afterwards :D

[Paul S]

Richard, it sounds like your requirements have narrowed your options down to homemade. The stock TB mount is the only one that is strong enough, but your coil hits it; the aftermarket ones are flat on the outside, but they are not strong enough.
I couldn't do the SBS either since I already had 3/16" plate inside & out, but I was able to add the SBS sleeves/spacers. Judging by the install, I think they added a lot of beef, well worth the weight of the sleeves:)
Paul

[vintagespeed]

Originally posted by KarmirXJ
What the heck is this? some sort of mount?---->

whatever it is it looks mighty taisty:D should fly you over, so you can make me one, Ill figure out what to do with it afterwards :D

That's the upper control arm mount for my 3 link. The holes are for rossette welds into the 'frame'.

[CRASH]

Richard, I think it's time for a Unibody eliminator kit from U.R. Fawked Racing.

It will cure what ails you.

On the tech side, the new rig will re-use the RE track bar bracket (the new style ones are welded inside and out (I broke the old single pass design) ), but I absolutely detest their small spherical bearing. It goes out after every two trips and I have to rebuild/tighten it. I'll switch to a 3/4" heim.

You'd be surprised about the RE bracket, it doesn't hit the UCA mount, but rather the front edge of the 44. If you move the axle back enough to clear, the tire gets into the wheel well.

CRASH

[XJEEPER]

Richard, the RE unit is nice, but you can just build your own to fit your custom frontend setup.
After seeing the RE and Rusty's TB mount, I just decided to build my own. I relocated my axle end to the top so the RE drop was not needed. I designed it to use a small RE SF joint, but I'm still running the heim and spacers which fit into the same space. I also built a tab on the inboard side to bolt my DOM tube crossmember/brace to and incorperated a stud for bolting the steering stablilizer to so it is up out of the way. I used a combination of 3/16 wall rect. tube and 1/4" plate. Sorry, no pictures.

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Richard, when I put in my D44, I built my own track bar mount. I made it shorter than stock to match my TJ pitman arm height and I shifted the actual mount for the track bar forward a bit to clear the axle at full stuff. I started with a 3/16" flat plat bent into an L and bolted against the frame. Then I welded a piece of box tubing to the bottom of the flat plate (with one side cut open) but angled it such that the track bar would follow the arc of the axle as it moves down and back. I also held it in a bit from the outer side of the frame. Then I took a piece of 1/4" and heated and bent it to pass along the outer side of the frame and then meet the box steel mount. There is quite a bit of triangulation in this setup to strengthen the mount and the part along the frame side is actually 7/16" thick. It sticks out less than the stock piece, but is stronger than the RE piece (in my opinion.) I also added another piece as a side brace and welded it all into one solid arrangement. Pics can be found at: http://www.madxj.com/MADXJ/technical/technicalfiles/JAfrontD44arb/FrontD44arb.htm

Just to give you an idea of a home made setup. I know I haven't run the tires nor rocks that you do, so it's ultimate durability has not really been tested. :) Jeff

BTW, XJeeper, I want to see pics!

[Goatman]

Does anyone know if the RE mount will fit a Currie 2.5" JJ? If it won't fit one (2 5/8" ID), then it's a moot point because I can't use it.

Crash, where does the RE mount hit? Remember, I don't have an UCA mount on that side.

I may just go ahead and modify another stock mount, maybe use the ORGS bracket. I can trim the part on the outside of the frame to get some more clearance for the coil spring.

[vintagespeed]

Originally posted by Goatman
Does anyone know if the RE mount will fit a Currie 2.5" JJ? If it won't fit one (2 5/8" ID), then it's a moot point because I can't use it.

Crash, where does the RE mount hit? Remember, I don't have an UCA mount on that side.

I may just go ahead and modify another stock mount, maybe use the ORGS bracket. I can trim the part on the outside of the frame to get some more clearance for the coil spring.

Dont tell Mark I said so, but you can make a similar bracket easily with a piece of 3x3x3/16. The ID is 2.625 which is what you need for a JJ........ask me how I know. :)

[Goatman]

Jim, that's what I have on my current mount. I use 3x3x3/16 boxed tubing for all my mounts......I can do it again, but didn't want to have to totally fab something this time. :dunno: :)

[XJJPR]

Originally posted by vintagespeed
Dont tell Mark I said so, but you can make a similar bracket easily with a piece of 3x3x3/16. The ID is 2.625 which is what you need for a JJ........ask me how I know. :)


I heard that JB!

Ya but my bracket is 1/4" and is nicely lazer cut so no need for massive cutting grinding.:D

Richard you can adapt it to anything you wanted to...

mark
orgs mfg

[FernXJ]

Mark, I used your Over the Axle Trackbar bracket and 2" extended swaybar mounts. They made my steering conversion come together so much smoother. I wish I could post pics, I'd like to see what you guys think.
Thanks again-Mark-NAXJA,
Rensing

[vintagespeed]

I too love ORGS products and ran ORGS suspension arms, TB, leafs, SBS, simply the best XJ stuff out there IMHO. Thankfully there is someone like Mark to be the ying to Rusty's yang......

[Yucca-Man]

For the comments about the RE Extreme-Duty trackbar mount cracking, do you know how old it was? If over a year or so it's probably their older design. Along with apparently beefing it up a bit they moved the lower section inboard slightly to clear the coils.

http://www.frii.com/~yuccaman/pics/x-duty_trackbar.jpg

[KarmirXJ]

Originally posted by Yucca-Man
For the comments about the RE Extreme-Duty trackbar mount cracking, do you know how old it was? If over a year or so it's probably their older design. Along with apparently beefing it up a bit they moved the lower section inboard slightly to clear the coils.

http://www.frii.com/~yuccaman/pics/x-duty_trackbar.jpg

this is REs newest design yucca?

[Yucca-Man]

Yeah, that's the new one. Mounted it on my 96 a few weeks ago

[CRASH]

Richard, the trackbar and the mount were hitting the cover of the 44, right near the top. The trouble with a 44 and high steer is that the bracket must slip right between the two. It may not be a problem with your 44, though, since your pumpkin is about 3/4" farther towards teh center than mine (you used a longer drivers side axle than i did.)

CRASH

[vintagespeed]

Originally posted by Yucca-Man
Yeah, that's the new one. Mounted it on my 96 a few weeks ago

If you dont mind me asking, what did that mount cost separate? That is similar to something I want to make but with even more beef. Just curious price wise.

[Goatman]

Originally posted by CRASH
Richard, the trackbar and the mount were hitting the cover of the 44, right near the top. The trouble with a 44 and high steer is that the bracket must slip right between the two. It may not be a problem with your 44, though, since your pumpkin is about 3/4" farther towards teh center than mine (you used a longer drivers side axle than i did.)

CRASH

I looked at mine closely, and I don't think it would hit the diff. I think mine is already lower than what the RE bracket would be. I still might just get the RE mount, and add some beef to it, just because I'm looking for quick and easy at this point. Who knows....I guess it will come down to what mood I'm in and how much time I have. :)

I'll have to put some thought into a brace, which will make a difference on how I beef up the mount.

[Yucca-Man]

Originally posted by vintagespeed
If you dont mind me asking, what did that mount cost separate? That is similar to something I want to make but with even more beef. Just curious price wise.

Mine was an upgrade to the standard trackbar in the RE6130 4.5" kit, but their website lists the mount alone for $70. RE1665 H.D. Trackbar Bracket.

Jim

[burntkat]

Originally posted by vintagespeed
I'm now building everything in my 3d modeler first and then fabbing, talk about an improvement! Makes me wish I could build all my mounts over again, lol. Here's a sample of some of the new stuff.

http://www.rockxj.com/images/UCA_plated4.jpg

Thanks for the compliment. :D

http://www.rockxj.com/images/ghettofablogo.jpg

What 3d modeler are youusing?

[vintagespeed]

Originally posted by burntkat
What 3d modeler are youusing?
I use AutoDesk Inventor now, I retired from AutoCad. Inventor is much nicer working with assemblies.