New motor oil wear problems on older engines

I found this distubing news:

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]"Thank you for visiting our website. Before you start looking for the things that brought you here, I need to tell you about a problem that has recently surfaced. The oil companies are constantly reformulating their products to improve them and to meet new government regulations. The newest oils have the letters SM for gasoline engines and CJ for diesel engines - as of May 2007. These latest formulations contain reduced levels of Phosphorus and Zinc that were mandated by the US Government because of evidence that high levels of P and Zn damage catalytic converters. The problem arises for owners of older cars. If you are caring for a car made before approx. 1995 you may have increased wear on some internal engine components if using these newer oil formulations. One solution has been to add Zn and P back to the oil using an additive such as GM's EOS Engine Oil Supplement at every oil change. In addition, it appears Boron is a good alternative to Zn and P. With the high cost of engine rebuilds, it may make sense to risk damage to a catalytic converter rather than destroy an engine. Naturally, more study is needed on this important subject. I plan to update this part of my website as more information becomes available.[/FONT] "

Someone posted a website recently (this past weekend) and I found this site from a link in that thread. I think this topic should be revisited!!!!! See:

For more details See: http://www.youroil.net/

and http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

So does it include the top oils like Mobil RP Redline and Amsoil? Or just talking about regular old 2 dollar quart dino.

i believe that affects mobil 1, not sure about redline and royal purple. i've been trying to figure that out, no luck yet. it certainly would be nice to know, as i recently started using rp.

They are all listed, including a bunch I never heard of, all with test data on the new unused oil, tested for Zn, P, Mo, Mn, Ca, B, detergents (dispersants), all on the second list I posted. Real eye opener! Even included test data on multiple engine oil additives!

Yeah since Mobil 1 is not a true POA base synthetic anymore. They sued Castrol for using Hydrocrack, not they are producing the same quality oil. I've been running RP for a while now. It keeps my 4.0 at N.O.T. and it's a true POA.

Looks like from that chart. Royal Purple has Pretty good Phosphurus and Zinc levels, compared to the other syn's. Haha look at the Lucas, barely any.

Whew. Royal Purple is safe. That's good to hear.

wow i use a quart of Lucas every change. thats not good for my 215,000 miles huh?

Is this actually something to be concerned with or is it someones spin on something. I've gone to all the major oil manufacturers sites and find no mention of it, looking over 'bobsistheoilguy.com now.

i don't know if it is an epidemic but you would think the poorer parts of the country ,such as appalachia, would be blowin motors right and left since the majority of the cars in those regions are pre 1996 cars. mike

RichP said:

Is this actually something to be concerned with or is it someones spin on something. I've gone to all the major oil manufacturers sites and find no mention of it, looking over 'bobsistheoilguy.com now.

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Well Yes and No,With our old I6 motors and the mileage we have on them its best to stay with the truck oils like Rotella T or any of the oils formulated for high mileage engines.
The additives that were removed are to help the emissions systems stay cleaner longer and keep the CEL light off,all warrenty related issues in NEW cars.
The high mileage oils have the old additive package in them.This is not to be confusued with the EXTENDED DRAIN period oils.
Wayne

MountainRhino said:

wow i use a quart of Lucas every change. thats not good for my 215,000 miles huh?

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I have been using Lucas too. I only use it for 1/6th of fill to keep my oil pressure up at 20 psi at hot idle in Houston.....If the other 5/6ths is the right oil with enough P, Zn, and detergents I would not worry, but caught my attention was the test results in that second link for all the oils.

RichP said:

Is this actually something to be concerned with or is it someones spin on something. I've gone to all the major oil manufacturers sites and find no mention of it, looking over 'bobsistheoilguy.com now.

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RichP,

Whatever spin there may be in it can be ignored, just look at the facts, the test data collected from posts from tests done by 2 independednt labs and the fact that EPA has apparently mandated a reduction in the Zn content in the oil packages and API has updated the standards to recognize this. In summary, what I read was that the oils are being quietly reformulated ( CJ-4 and SM are replacing CI-4 and S?? something else?) for newer engines and newer fuels (low sulfur for instance in the new fuels) and for EPA warranty requirments on cat converters. Seems the high zinc, especially on oil burners is killing the cat converters. Also read something about the cams and valves on our older engines needing the zinc, and the newer over head cam / valve engines not having as much wear (spring / lifter pressure?) on the their cams and therefore not needing as much zinc as our older, 4.0s need. I may not be repeating this all exactly, or correctly, go check out the oringial link for the real facts.

What I concluded is that we could experience faster wear on cam shafts and lifters on the 4.0s. Not immediate catastrouphic damage wear, but the kind that could affect engine performance and oil pressure over time, like maybe 25,000 to 50,000 miles on the wrong oil (lower Zn & P content) causing wear equivalent to 100,000 to 200,000 miles on the cam lobes and cam bearings (just a guess on my part). One thing is for sure, a lot of us have noticed mysterious, somewhat sudden, low hot oil idle pressure problems recently that is not caused by the oil pump, or the mains or rod bearings, leaving in my case the cam and cam bearings. Hmm?

Even the API guys were saying some new studies need to be done due to the changes in Zinc/phosphorus content!

I think this is a fairly new, and currently dynamic, likely to change topic we should stay on top of, as the EPA and API and new car manufacturers are only going to act in their own best self interest, leaving us with a potential problem if we get caught unawares.

I for one am dealing with both the gas and deisel engine fuel changes and engine oil changes on 80s vintage vehicles, giving me double the opportunities for unexpected problems with fuel lubricity issues (ULSD, Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel fuel) and the oil additives changes.

It is also my understanding that the zinc-phosphorous compound they are reducing the concentration on, actually plates out on the cylinder and bearing walls as active metal is exposed due to wear. Its absence would accelerate engine wear on wear surfaces under heavy loads.

RichP said:

Is this actually something to be concerned with or is it someones spin on something. I've gone to all the major oil manufacturers sites and find no mention of it, looking over 'bobsistheoilguy.com now.

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RichP,

While you are doing this, look for a copy of the API (I think) specs on the old CI-4 and The new CJ-4 specs for diesels, as well as the new SM spec versus its predecessor (I don't know the spec on it) for gas engines.

Reading off my new gallon of Rotella T, it says SAE 15W40, API CJ-4/SM, but it also says it MEETS API service requirements of CJ-4,CI-4 Plus, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4/SM, SL, SJ. But I don't think the way these silver tunged marketing guys (devils) play with the legal marketing english, that "meets the SERVICE requirements" means the same as "meets the requirements"

My current supply of Exxon Superflow, 20W50 says API service SM only, and Exceeds API service SM, SL, SJ,SH,SG.

Wayne,

Sounds like this is not news to you, but for one thing. The test data I saw on the web site linked below, showed no correlation that I could see between the additive concentrations and the brand and types of oils. In other words some of the high mileage oils were no better, and in some cases were worse than the other non-high mileage oils. It also appeared that the ones that were retested a year apart for the same exact oil had, and were changing with out changes on the labels!!!!

So with out doing our own testing, how do we know what we are really getting anymore. That is the part that REALLY caught my attention.

Its becoming a sellers dream-marketplace for snake oil!

Wayne Sihler said:

Well Yes and No,With our old I6 motors and the mileage we have on them its best to stay with the truck oils like Rotella T or any of the oils formulated for high mileage engines.
The additives that were removed are to help the emissions systems stay cleaner longer and keep the CEL light off,all warrenty related issues in NEW cars.
The high mileage oils have the old additive package in them.This is not to be confusued with the EXTENDED DRAIN period oils.
Wayne

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So Ecomike,
What do you recommend for the high mileage owners as well as for me with 12000 miles on my remanufactured engine. I have been using 10w40 Mobil 1 since breakin. It appears to have the additives in it, but in what concentrations are they required? What about the filters mentioned in that study(we are not driving Porsches) we have XJs. Any suggestions there for filters. I use a purolater now, should I switch???

Ecomike said:

Wayne,

Sounds like this is not news to you, but for one thing. The test data I saw on the web site linked below, showed no correlation that I could see between the additive concentrations and the brand and types of oils. In other words some of the high mileage oils were no better, and in some cases were worse than the other non-high mileage oils. It also appeared that the ones that were retested a year apart for the same exact oil had, and were changing with out changes on the labels!!!!

So with out doing our own testing, how do we know what we are really getting anymore. That is the part that REALLY caught my attention.

Its becoming a sellers dream-marketplace for snake oil!

Click to expand...

I was alerted to it by my friend that owns a NAPA garage and oil change business,he also has several vintage chevys that he has restored,I asked about the cam failures that were reported here and he checked with the Jasper Engine people,as a "have you heard /experinced this" question.They (Jasper) were -concerned because of there replacement engines and told him of the removed additives in the new grades of oil.Because of this he switched to the Valvoline Max Life oils in his old cars.
I value his judgement and experince in these matters and will do the same.
Wayne

Thank you for the thread Ecomike,
I am seriously considering the GM EOS additive.
Another scary link.
http://www.naaaccc.ca/oil_additives_.htm

mikeforte said:

So Ecomike,
What do you recommend for the high mileage owners as well as for me with 12000 miles on my remanufactured engine. I have been using 10w40 Mobil 1 since breakin. It appears to have the additives in it, but in what concentrations are they required? What about the filters mentioned in that study(we are not driving Porsches) we have XJs. Any suggestions there for filters. I use a purolater now, should I switch???

Click to expand...

I am asking myself the same question on the high mileage oils. I have been using Exxon and Castrol for over 20 years when I could get them, only because I was told by an engine rebuilder here back the 80s that the Penzoil I was using has parafinic based and that (at the time) Exxon and Castrol were the only Napthalenic based oils around, and for that reason (non-parafinic base) they did deposit wax (precursor to sludge) in the engine. Ever heard of parafin wax?

Recently, I can't figure out what is BS, and what is not on the who is making what engine oil out of what base stock or process. I also use to use single viscosity oils, 40 wt only on high mileage engines, but I have been using 20W50 oils recently, with a quart of Lucas and 1/2 quart of MMO. I tried some synthetic earlier this year, and ended up replacing all my previously non-leaking seals, that started leaking a quart every 200 miles.

I am sticking with Dyno oils, 20W50 but now I am worried about which brand and blend to use. Personally I am toying with the idea of using 1-2 quarts of synthetic, with 3 to 4 quarts of dyno in mine (248,000 miles). Mine seems to drink straight synthetic, even 20W50, but does just fine with Dyno 20W50. I like what I read about synthetic, and how it keeps the engine clean, so my thought is to use a quart of synthetic to help the dyno oil keep the engine clean, but not so much synthetic that the engine drinks it.

On you newly rebuilt engine I would be inclined to try mobil 1, 10W30 or 10W40 for the summer down there. But I see your using 10W40 Mobil 1 already! I would stick with it for now.

Stay away from Fram filters. Safest and best oil filters in my opinion are first and best, K & N, then Mobil 1, then I put Purolator, NAPA gold, and Wix all at about equals for a third place. There are a number of close thirds that are private labeled, but I no longer trust any of them not to suddenly switch to Frams for the guts.

Wayne,

Thanks for the detailed story, I will take a closer look at Valvoline maxlife myself. I am also thinking of doing (pulling samples and sending them into the lab) oil tests on my own engines for the first time.

cygnus58,

Nice find, thanks, I am reading it right now!

WOW, everyone needs to read that link for sure. :shiver::shiver::shiver::shiver::shiver::shiver:
Can there be any doubt left that is a big issue now!!!!!!!

Nice find!!!!!

cygnus58 said:

Thank you for the thread Ecomike,
I am seriously considering the GM EOS additive.
Another scary link.
http://www.naaaccc.ca/oil_additives_.htm

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