Replaced wires, cap, rotor, no start! Help!

[dutchjeep]

Hi all,

Just spend an afternoon working on my XJ (1992, limited, i6, 4.0l).

First I flushed my P/S system by connecting the return hose to a bottle and pooring in P/S fluid while cranking (coil wire pulled). Worked great. Replaced the P/S hoses after that, done.

Then I decided I would also replace the spark wires, distributor-cap and rotor. After doing that, starting......no go! I've been pretty careful with replacing the wires (did that first) and then plugged them onto the new cap. Everything one-by-one. There seemed only one way to put in the rotor in (right?). Apart from maybe 180 degree off but I made sure that the terminal labeled 1 was at the same spot as the one that came off. I have put a (very) thin coat of dielectric grease on all components (that's ok right?). I got Mopar parts from the dealer, and they indeed look similar to what came off. Now the Haynes mentions "Also, make sure the carbon brush (center terminal) is correctly installed in the cap, a wide gap between brush and rotor....". I have not seen a brush. Do they mean just the center terminal?

I am really clueless! Any input to what I could possibly have messed up with such a routine job would be great! Help!

Thanks!

[Bradlybob]

Crap, it's been a while but I'm pretty sure they're refering to the carbon "button" (brush) in the center of the inside of the distributor cap. It has to make contact with the top of the rotor for the coil voltage gets to the plug wires.

[dutchjeep]

Just replaced the new cap and rotor with the old ones (just to be sure). Nothing changed. It sounds like it's almost picking it up but it won't go. I will put the charger on the battery (although cranking sounds pretty solid, again just to be on the safe side). My wires are ordered 1 4 2 6 3 5, starting at 1 going counterclockwise on the cap. I wanted to attach a picture with the wiring shown but I appear unable to do so. Will now go ahead and put the old wires back on see if that changes anything.

Any thoughts?

[dutchjeep]

Crap, it's been a while but I'm pretty sure they're refering to the carbon "button" (brush) in the center of the inside of the distributor cap. It has to make contact with the top of the rotor for the coil voltage gets to the plug wires.

Thanks! Ok, just needed to know if there was some sort of "brush" that I was missing. Button's there, so that should be ok. Since I put the old rotor and cap on, I'm sure they are making contact (worked before). Like I said, will put the old wires back next and see what happens.

Tim

[Flash]

Is it possible the when you put he new wires on the new cap.......that you started one hole ahead or behind. you said that you when one at a time but if ya started out wrong you could be advanced or retarded a hole cylinder.
Causing the spark to fire at the wrong time.


do you have spark at the coil????? at each cylinder wire??




Flash.

[dutchjeep]

Yeah, that's a point. That's why I wanted to post the picture to make sure that's not the case. Just paid for a subscription to naxja but it will probably take them a while to allow me to post attachments (my bad, should have subscribed sooner).

Didn't test spark yet. Will do now. Will just hang a spark plug on the wires to check visual. Is there a better way with a multimeter perhaps?

Will report back in a few minutes.

[Flash]

If you llike you multimeter don't us it!!!!!

[Flash]

It shows you in red! so you should be good to go!



Scroll to the bottom of the page and if it say

http://www.naxja.org/forum/images/buttons/collapse_thead.gif (http://www.naxja.org/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=243378565#top) Posting Rules You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may edit your posts
vB code (http://www.naxja.org/forum/misc.php?do=bbcode) is On
Smilies (http://www.naxja.org/forum/misc.php?do=showsmilies) are On
[IMG] (http://www.naxja.org/forum/misc.php?do=bbcode#imgcode) code is On
HTML code is Off



then you are set!


Flash.

P.S. congrades on the member ship!!:cool:

[old_man]

Hi all,

I have put a (very) thin coat of dielectric grease on all components (that's ok right?).

Please define all components. You didn't put any inside the distributor other than on the center electrode of the cap did you?

[dutchjeep]

I have put a little bit in the center electrode of the rotor (the copper 'spring' that hits the coil button) and the rotor end (the side that actually rotates). The center one was improvisation, the rotor end was indicated in my Haynes. I also put a little on the terminals sticking out of the cap (where the plug wires attache to). That's it. Like I said I have re-installed my old cap and rotor to bypass any goof-ups I might have made there.

Finally I managed to push a picture in here. This is what my wiring looks like. Pic is taken from passenger side (right is to front, left is to back of the jeep). I marked the plugs with number associated with the cylinders that the wires connect to. This is the old cap and rotor, but with the new wires. Please let me know if the ordering looks ok, or that I did in fact misplaced all of them?

http://homepages.ipact.nl/%7Ehth63/plugwires_labels2web.jpg

[dutchjeep]

Btw, just checked sparks (not with multimeter:)), and I do get sparks everywhere. So they are either too weak or I messed up the timing.

Tim

[Flash]

I Don't now for sure about the firing order but.......old_man could be on to some thing here!!!!!


electrical grease is grate for spark plug boots, wire and on top of the cap......but not were electricity is trying to jump!(inside the cap and rotor and your spark plugs.

clean the cap and rotor out and dry it before you put it back on..........it just might fix it!!!!!

Flash.

[dutchjeep]

Yeah, I thought that too. That's why I put back the old cap & rotor. On that one I never used any grease and left them in the same state as when I took them off (when the truck was running fine).

Right now, I think it must be the firing order. Anyone sees any faults in the pic I posted?

Is there any simple way to check timing/firing order?

Thanks again!

Tim

[Flash]

Well my jeep is a renix version and i don't now if that makes any diff but, it's pressently -5 F out there tonight so if nobody give ya a answer to night, in the morning I will go take a look and let ya now.........just to cold ta do it tonight:shiver:

Flash.

[Flash]

I just pulled out my service manual(89) and i thing you need to rotate the wire back(counter clockwise) one position!@!!!!!

Flash.

[XJPhoenix]

Another thought, please forgive me if you've done this already, have you checked the computer for codes? (The old 'turn key to on position without starting up three times, and wait for the flashes code check.)

Did the computer say anything?

:)

[dutchjeep]

I just pulled out my service manual(89) and i thing you need to rotate the wire back(counter clockwise) one position!@!!!!!

Flash.

Wow, so you mean that I should replace all the wires one position counterclockwise? Thus wire on 1 should be on position where 4 is now etc? Just to make sure I got it right! So the FSM actually draws this out? My Haynes is very abstract (useless).

Man, I have no idea how I got this messed up but will try tomorrow morning (first thing). Thanks!

[nekocopter]

Yes, he means move each wire counter clockwise 1 position.

[dutchjeep]

Another thought, please forgive me if you've done this already, have you checked the computer for codes? (The old 'turn key to on position without starting up three times, and wait for the flashes code check.)

Did the computer say anything?

:)

Hadn't thought of that but just checked the codes. Nothing special. Just a 12 and 62 (the 62 I always have, and 12 is just the battery has been unplugged). Theoretically there should be nothing wrong with the truck since it was running before I touched it. But you're right, should check just to make sure theory is ok. Thanks for the input!

[dutchjeep]

Can't test the rotation of the wires right now (night time here, neighbours sleeping), will report back tomorrow on progress. Thanks so far!

[dutchjeep]

I just pulled out my service manual(89) and i thing you need to rotate the wire back(counter clockwise) one position!@!!!!!

Flash.

Back on it. Just repositioned the wires one position CCW (1->4 etc.).....still won't start! Actually the other position (in the pic) sounded slightly better (cranking sound).

I am really at a loss here! I re-installed all the old stuff (wires, cap, rotor) and the truck still won't fire up (and it was running before). If anyone has suggestions on the firing order (see picture) or otherwise please let me know!

Can I somehow align the rotor position with a position on the engine (firing position Cyl 1)??

On my new cap there is a nr. 1 stamped in the plastic. That seems to indicate that my wire ordering is ok. But then I really have no clue what could be wrong! The car cranks pretty strong. But could it be the battery nonetheless?

Thanks for any further input!

Tim

[Flash]

when you rotate them back look on the cap its self. Some times they put a little #1 next to a post........Your old cap might have it on it. but eater way i would move each wire back one position....

Thanks for the simple answer nekocopter, some time i get to involve it the theory of it all, and get people confused.;)


Flash!

[Flash]

So you are getting spark out off the spark plug, all six cables.


Flash.

[dutchjeep]

So you are getting spark out off the spark plug, all six cables.


Flash.

Yep, all six cables fire.

[Flash]

I can only think of 2 diff problem... 1 your spark plugs are fuel foul(plugs are gas soaked) and can't fire............if this is the case remove the inj wires form the jeep hold the throttle to the floor, until it starts!

the rotor aligning tab is broke and it is in the wrong spot on the distributer shaft!


Flash.

[dutchjeep]

The aligning tab is fine (checked). Will try the soaked-plug-idea. I did try yesterday and today with no difference and would expect that any soaking would have been evaporated by now. Will get back on that.

What about the ignition coil? I cranked the engine a couple of times with the wire between the coil and the cap disconnected (when I was flushing the PS fluid, see first post). Could that have caused damage to the coil? In retrospect I should have disconnected the other side of the coil to prevent high-charge build-up inside.

Although I got spark everywhere, they were yellowish, not blue. I thought a strong, powerful spark should be blue, right? That's why I think I might have fried the ignition coil.

[Flash]

Hmmm I thought that you were running the eng when you flushed the power steering fluid! Hmmm Makes me thing that the plugs are fouled.

If removing the inj wire makes no diff, remove the plugs and see if they or dry or wet. if wet crank the eng.... a lot with the plugs out and the inj wires still remove.

Clean and dry spark plugs. If there was a lot of fuel that came out the spark plug hole, when cranking........you will need to add couple squirts of oil into each syl so that it can bring the compression back up from the fuel washing all the oil off from the cylinder walls.

You wouldn't have damage a thing with the coil being unhooked!

Flash.

Sorry,:rtm: just when and reread your first post. cranked (with coil remove):twak: :D

[dutchjeep]

Just taken out the plugs. They all smelled after gas pretty bad. Three were visually wet, they are not very dirty. Will dry and clean them, put them back and give it a go. Haven't tried starting without the injectors yet (already got the plugs out), will try cleaning drying first and then retry.

Are you sure starting the engine without the plugs is ok (with the injectors disconnected of course)? No change of sucking dirt in the cylinders?

[Flash]

Just taken out the plugs. They all smelled after gas pretty bad. Three were visually wet, they are not very dirty. Will dry and clean them, put them back and give it a go. Haven't tried starting without the injectors yet (already got the plugs out), will try cleaning drying first and then retry.

Are you sure starting the engine without the plugs is ok (with the injectors disconnected of course)? No change of sucking dirt in the cylinders?

YES, it will be fine.....unless your eng is really dirty(muddy) under the hood then you might want to put the plugs in and blow all the dirt a way form the spark plug first.

after you have started it w/out the inj wires on......and you restart it with the inj plugged in. DON'T turn it off until you have got i warmed up and drive it for 10 minutes or so(tell it drive and acts normal)before you shut it off or you will have to start all over!
Look like you have found the problem and the solution!;)

Flash.

EDIT
You should change the oil after you get it running, to get the gas out of the oil.

[dutchjeep]

Ok, here's what I did. Cleaned the plugs, back in started....almost.

Disconnected injectors.....run, very slowly somewhat irregular... but running (a little like a car that has self-ignition due to carbon build-up and keeps running after you turned it off)

Reconnected injectors....nothing.

Disconnected again.....same thing...slow running.

By this time I figured the plugs were dirty again.

Right now, took them out again and they look pretty bad. Will crank a couple of times without the plugs in them then (thanks for your previous post, just wanted to check whether that's ok). Will clean and try again. This time with the injectors in it.

If it runs, believe me, I won't turn it off until I run out of fuel:)!

Will get back on results.

[Flash]

start it with the injectors unplug, and keep starting it till it will not even try to start or will just spin with no atempt to run! then put the injector wires back on, start it and hold it at a high idle for atleast 30 sec before seeing weather it will idle.

[ParadiseXJ]

The firing order is in correct sequence but is usually listed clockwise as
1-5-3-6-2-4 (which counter clockwise would be 1-4-2-6-3-5). So it's in the right order but may not be in the correct starting position.

[Flash]

The firing order is in correct sequence but is usually listed clockwise as
1-5-3-6-2-4 (which counter clockwise would be 1-4-2-6-3-5). So it's in the right order but may not be in the correct starting position.


After pulling out my service manual, again........you are RIGHT, the rotor turns in a clockwise position.

Pulled my service manual out to prove you wrong! but.........:worship: :D

Flash.

[dutchjeep]

Guys..........she runs!!

Did like we discussed. Even used my wife's blowdryer to dry the cylinders, just to get that extra edge:). She's back! Man, I learned never to break the good old rule of not changing two things at the same time (PS fluid hoses & the spark wires). It simply turned out I drowned the car when cranking to flush the fluid. I never ran it after that but went ahead and changed the wires etc. Then I thought I goofed up there (because that was the obvious). Valuable lesson learned!

Also for all you out there wanting to flush the PS fluid. Just short the starter, don't disconnect the coil. Or -- if you do -- disconnect the injectors also. Another valuable lesson learned for me. The rest of the world probably already knew this:).

Thank you guys for all your patience with me! This is really great the way you guys talked me through this. The advice, ideas and moral support was much appreciated!!

I love my jeep again!

Tim

[Flash]

Removing the ASD or fuel pump relay would would also work!

Glad the see you have made it to the end......with a smile:cheers:

Flash.

[dutchjeep]

Flash,

Thanks for all the help man! Just for future reference, where do I find the ASD (what does it stand for) or the fuel pump relay. Those little clamps on the injectors are a pain so if there is an easier way to do the same thing I'm interested!

Thanks again!

Tim

[Flash]

ASD stand for "Auto Shut Down" relay witch is what you have this relay when activated allowed the......ground, i thing.

anyway the computer uses this relay to turn on the inj and fuel pump. or more importantly turn them of when the key is turned off.

my jeep is a Renix and it is a fuel pump relay that is part of 4 relay on the passenger fender.

Sorry your's in a 92+ and i'm not shore were they put them. Hmmmm maybe i can see them in your pic.!......nope can't see the fender.

they are little black boxes about 3/4" by 3/4 square!

Flash

[ParadiseXJ]

I believe after 1990 they started putting all the relays in the Power Distribution Center (PDC) located on the passenger wheel well in the engine compartment. It's a black box about 8"x4". There should be a "map" of where everything goes. It's either on the outside of the box or on the inside after you pop it open.

My 1990 4.0 only has a "relay center". A picture of the relay center might narrow that search down. I don't have a pic of the PDC, but you should be able to search and find one. I think the manual should mention it.

The power latch relay only applies, well, if you have a power latch (rear hatch)

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/2/web/2426000-2426999/2426393_12_full.jpg

[Flash]

thats exactly how mine looks but dutchjeep pic. shows the coil on the block so i fig it was diff on his:dunno:

Flash.

[XJPhoenix]

Excellent!

Glad to hear she's up and running again.

:)

[thall]

are you sure about the power latch relay?.... there is a relay there on my MJ..... no power latch ........

I don't see the B latch relay in description.... this is the relay that allows the ISC to be reset ....

[ParadiseXJ]

thall,

I think the illustration was put out there by someone trying to diagnose a problem with their power latch. I just posted it to show what the "relay center" looked like as opposed to the PDC. If you don't have a hatch then I think that relay is assigned to somewhere else, only possibly the ASD.

The manuals I've read don't even hardly mention the ASD. I tore my hair (what little of it is left) out trying to diagnose an ASD problem when it was in reality my fuel pump ballast resistor.

[Flash]

thall,

I think the illustration was put out there by someone trying to diagnose a problem with their power latch. I just posted it to show what the "relay center" looked like as opposed to the PDC. If you don't have a hatch then I think that relay is assigned to somewhere else, only possibly the ASD.

The manuals I've read don't even hardly mention the ASD. I tore my hair (what little of it is left) out trying to diagnose an ASD problem when it was in reality my fuel pump ballast resistor.

OK now ya go my atention.......fuel pump ballast RESISTOR? where is that at????

Flash

[ParadiseXJ]

Fuel pump ballast resistor on my rig (90 4.0 Laredo) is on the drivers side right next to the air box, near the headlight relay. It's a little porcelain looking thing with two orange (on mine) wires with push on connectors. It's rather an important item since without it the Jeep will start, but will not run.

I accidentally disconnected mine when doing some work on the P/S pump.
I went to start it and it fired up but died after 3 seconds. Took it (towed it) to my mechanic after going nuts for half a day, he fixed it 30 seconds and charged me a 6 pack.

I'll send a picture later.

[XJPhoenix]

^^

That happened to my brother and I when we adjusted the serpentine belt on his 88 XJ. We went nuts trying to figure out what we did wrong; but in our defence it was night, it was -5 degrees, and all we had were LED flashlights. (It got really dark, REALLY fast.)

:)

[Flash]

^^

That happened to my brother and I when we adjusted the serpentine belt on his 88 XJ. We went nuts trying to figure out what we did wrong; but in our defence it was night, it was -5 degrees, and all we had were LED flashlights. (It got really dark, REALLY fast.)

:)

Hmmm i thought that was a ballast resistor for the ign.


Flash.

[thall]

power latch relay...

in this FSM, you are correct in its name...

this scan will explain its function......

I have another manual that i am pretty confident it states a B latch or something similar

http://web.InfoAve.Net/~ehall/relay.jpg

[ParadiseXJ]

Wow, so sounds like the "Power Latch" is essentially the ASD (it cuts off power) to the fuel pump? That makes a hell of a lot more sense than anything having to do with the rear "Hatch".


Great to learn something. Here's the pic of the fuel pump ballast resistor I promised.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/2/web/2426000-2426999/2426393_13_full.jpg

[XJPhoenix]

Oops!

I forgot the important part; we knocked one of the plugs off of the ballast resistor, and didn't notice. The Jeep would start, then die right quick. We couldn't figure out what we'd done wrong, until my brother spotted the loose wire. He plugged it in, and it fired up no problem after that.

I'm not sure if it's for the ignition; some folks say they've bypassed it entirely, and that it's only function is to reduce noise from the fuel pump. I can't figure it out any which way, so I just accept that a Jeep that has it, needs it to run.

:)

[thall]

the reduction in noise is the reason i have been told... i believe it is a 1 ohm resistor...

I also believe the fuel pump relay is supplying current to the pump, probably not the ASD (p. latch) relay...

one would need to trace out the circuit to see what 'all' it controls....