polishing a D30... or?

Since now I have a D30 housing with welded axle tube sitting in the garage I'm starting to think about what I can do with it. Someone has suggested that I could get it retubed with beefier tubes (I'm pretty much down the street from Currie ) and put CJ outer C's on it and run it with CJ knuckles. This would give me manual hubs, allow me to reuse my 4.88's, alloy shafts and detroit and get me stronger axle tubes.
Now... is this a bad idea? semi crazy? could it be improved upon? would it work?
I know the popular option is to get a front 44. But there are higher costs and complications there: the width vs custom axleshafts, need for new gears, locker.... So for now I wanna give this a theoretical whirl and see what I come up with.
THanks
Remi

Cut down the long side of an f250 hp44 to use a stock waggy shaft. Off the shelf stuff then. Cheap, and it's a really strong axle too (1/2" tubes). Why go through the trouble and expense to do that when you can do this setup much cheaper and easier. As an added benefit, the TJ guys are starting to get really crazy about the HP 30's from cherokee's...you could fund the new axle with your old one.

JeffsJeep04 said:

Cut down the long side of an f250 hp44 to use a stock waggy shaft. Off the shelf stuff then. Cheap, and it's a really strong axle too (1/2" tubes). Why go through the trouble and expense to do that when you can do this setup much cheaper and easier. As an added benefit, the TJ guys are starting to get really crazy about the HP 30's from cherokee's...you could fund the new axle with your old one.

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I am not too sure if it's cheaper as I have pretty much all the expensive stuff already. I'd be looking only at a cost of retubing, C's, knuckles (and everything else that bolts to that and the outers.

ANyways, does anyone have thoughts about doing the D30 CJ hybrid?

Kejtar said:

I am not too sure if it's cheaper as I have pretty much all the expensive stuff already. I'd be looking only at a cost of retubing, C's, knuckles (and everything else that bolts to that and the outers.

ANyways, does anyone have thoughts about doing the D30 CJ hybrid?

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I corresponded with BillaVista about his (documented at Pirate) a year or so ago.

He said he wouldn't go that route again. The big issue was the need for custom shafting. If you are a CrMo kinda guy anyway I guess that is not much of an issue since you'd be inclined to add new shafting regardless of what axle you went with.

For the type of wheeling I'm into I'd seriously consider it given the parts you have lying around. I'm a path of least resistance kind of guy though so probably wouldn't go through with it in the end. I really don't need it for the type of wheeling I'm into.

That being said, what is the real driver for the project? Are the tubes the weak link on the HP D30? I was under the impression the biggie was the carrier/housing flex.

This modification won't fix that - but a truss may help. The big tubes couldn't hurt of course. Sleeving the outside may be a cheaper solution.

Hubs? Is doing this going to cost less than a WARN hub kit, especially if the standard D30 hubs is something you are going to have to buy anyway? The WARN kit comes with new CrMo outer shafts, btw. When you factor that in, you aren't really paying ~$600 just for hubs. It's still pricey but...

For wheeling in the SW I'd be more inclined to go the D44 route. I have no real experience wheeling down there - I just know I wouldn't even consider driving a vehicle down some of the stuff you guys call "trails".

My 2 cents, for what it's worth. You did ask for thoughts after all.

r@m

Root Moose said:

I corresponded with BillaVista about his (documented at Pirate) a year or so ago.

He said he wouldn't go that route again. The big issue was the need for custom shafting. If you are a CrMo kinda guy anyway I guess that is not much of an issue since you'd be inclined to add new shafting regardless of what axle you went with.

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Custom shafts? couldn't I use XJ inners and CJ outers?

That being said, what is the real driver for the project? Are the tubes the weak link on the HP D30? I was under the impression the biggie was the carrier/housing flex.

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Well I did break a tube on my D30, but the real driver is that i got the housing, got the gears, got the alloy shafts (and the housing is just laying in the garage waiting) so I figured if it's something that's reasoneable I'd tinker with it.

This modification won't fix that - but a truss may help. The big tubes couldn't hurt of course. Sleeving the outside may be a cheaper solution.

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I ran out of parts and steel to do the truss or sleeve, but I'll get to it eventually.

Kejtar said:

Custom shafts? couldn't I use XJ inners and CJ outers?

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It's been a long time since I looked into this but from what I remember, yes custom shafting was required. Maybe it was a width concern that drove that, not certain. Maybe take a look at the write up over at Pirate, it's in the tech section. IIRC, the specifics of the shafting is mentioned.

I'll try to scare up the emails I had with BillaVista and see if there was anything relevant that wasn't mentioned in the article.

r@m

Here's the link to the hybrid axle build:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Hybrid_Axle/HybridAxle.htm

I guess I've got the hybrids muddled - this build uses D44 outers. That may explain the shafting issue.

r@m

Root Moose said:

Here's the link to the hybrid axle build:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Hybrid_Axle/HybridAxle.htm

I guess I've got the hybrids muddled - this build uses D44 outers. That may explain the shafting issue.

r@m

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Yeah, I'm reading that now.. but

Because of the different style of knuckle yoke, the distance between the center of the U-joint and the vertical line through the upper and lower balljoints is about an inch shorter in the CJ yokes than it is in the XJ/YJ/ZJ/TJ/MJ yokes. This means the stock inner axle shafts, even if you have the 297x U-joints will be too long. They can't be shortened because of the design of the shafts. The only way around this would be to use a sleeve of some sort, preferably with the D44 knuckle yokes, that lengthens the axle tube itself the same amount so you can use the stock inner shafts (assuming they take the 297x U-joint, as they will have to, to mate with the 297x jointed D44 stub shaft) or some other length so that a different 297 jointed stock inner axle could be used. here are some 297 jointed stock inner axle dimensions from the Warn page www.warn.com to help you figure this out if you want to try that: Note that the stock XJ shafts are the same as the Wrangler - Right 32.25", Left

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If I'm retubing the D30 it becomes non issue as I can get the tubes cut to the right size

I probably would have gone this route if I were certain that I was not going to go larger than 35's (as it turned out, I was on 37's before I even completed my 9/44).
IMO it's a great setup for 35's, but it's not going to cost much less than a 44, so you need to be really sure about tire size.
Consider what you get out of this:
True hi-steer (makes it worth while IMO, & really the only reason to do it).
A couple of inches wider.
Stronger R&P due to increased housing rigidity, maybe...
Weaker stub axle/hub than your current stub axle/unit bearing (both are more than up to the task of 35's so this doesn't really matter).

Paul

Paul S said:

I probably would have gone this route if I were certain that I was not going to go larger than 35's (as it turned out, I was on 37's before I even completed my 9/44).

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Yeah, I'm not going to go bigger then 35's. I'm not even goign to go to 35's for a while

IMO it's a great setup for 35's, but it's not going to cost much less than a 44, so you need to be really sure about tire size.

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Yeah, I looked at the costs and I think I'm not going to do too bad there.

Consider what you get out of this:
True hi-steer (makes it worth while IMO, & really the only reason to do it).
A couple of inches wider.
Stronger R&P due to increased housing rigidity, maybe...
Weaker stub axle/hub than your current stub axle/unit bearing (both are more than up to the task of 35's so this doesn't really matter).

Click to expand...

Yeah, the hi steer is something I forgot to mention in my previous posts, but it is a definate plus.
In regards to the weaker stub axle/unit bearing: is that if I go with CJ knuckles? What if I go with D44 knucles? THe Bill Vista writeup talks about using CJ or Scout inner C's and D44 knuckles. Would that improve my strength?

Kejtar said:

Yeah, I'm not going to go bigger then 35's. I'm not even goign to go to 35's for a while

Yeah, I looked at the costs and I think I'm not going to do too bad there.

Yeah, the hi steer is something I forgot to mention in my previous posts, but it is a definate plus.
In regards to the weaker stub axle/unit bearing: is that if I go with CJ knuckles? What if I go with D44 knucles? THe Bill Vista writeup talks about using CJ or Scout inner C's and D44 knuckles. Would that improve my strength?

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CJ inner knuckles are the same as 44 inner knuckles, the only difference is they have a smaller ID to fit the 30 tube.
If you use CJ/44 inner knuckles, you'll probably go with 19 spline Warn stub axles & Warn premium hubs (this is what almost everyone with a 44 runs, including me). IMO this combo is not as strong as your current D30 unit bearing/Superior stub, but it doesn't matter, as both are plenty strong.

Paul

Paul S said:

CJ inner knuckles are the same as 44 inner knuckles, the only difference is they have a smaller ID to fit the 30 tube.
If you use CJ/44 inner knuckles, you'll probably go with 19 spline Warn stub axles & Warn premium hubs (this is what almost everyone with a 44 runs, including me). IMO this combo is not as strong as your current D30 unit bearing/Superior stub, but it doesn't matter, as both are plenty strong.

Paul

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You are also comparing a lockout hub to what is essentially a drive flange. I think they'd be much closer if you used flanges on the 44. I carry a set as spares in my trail box incase I blow a hub. Much easier to change out then a unit bearing if you have a big blowout on the trail (although you'd have to get the unit bearing off to change the shaft anyway...so that point may be moot).

Paul S said:

CJ inner knuckles are the same as 44 inner knuckles, the only difference is they have a smaller ID to fit the 30 tube.
If you use CJ/44 inner knuckles, you'll probably go with 19 spline Warn stub axles & Warn premium hubs (this is what almost everyone with a 44 runs, including me). IMO this combo is not as strong as your current D30 unit bearing/Superior stub, but it doesn't matter, as both are plenty strong.

Paul

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OK, cool, so now I would just have to plan with the length of the tube in order to accomodate for the shallower inner knuckles so that I can keep my current warn inners.

JeffsJeep04 said:

You are also comparing a lockout hub to what is essentially a drive flange. I think they'd be much closer if you used flanges on the 44. I carry a set as spares in my trail box incase I blow a hub. Much easier to change out then a unit bearing if you have a big blowout on the trail (although you'd have to get the unit bearing off to change the shaft anyway...so that point may be moot).

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True, but I don't know anyone running drive flanges on a 44, & for a DD hubs are proibably a better option.

Paul

p.s. I prefer drive flanges

OK, I just called TriCounty to get a quote on retubing and it's not that cheap on the labour (it's nto overly expensive, but still). So another thought struck me:
what if I clean up the axle tube, chop the axle from the point of the breakage (between the UCA mount and C)and then slide another piece in with the C on it. If the fit is going to be tight enough I'm not going to have to worry about lining it up and that way I get it reinforced, with the right knuckle and I get to do it cheap

Billy :laugh3:

why go to all the effort and still end up with cj style hubs?

CJ hubs IIRC are 5 on 5.5 anyway - why not run crane inner knuckles and d44 everything else out - with the 760 u-joint shaft, everything would swap over...

maybe you could talk Crane into sending you some knuckles if you promise pictures of their stuff being used in a new way?

http://www.highclearance.com/


or, to do the ultimate tird polish - buy your axle tubes the thickness of d60 tubes and have a mahineist mill them down to d30 housing thickness right before the housing and have a "step" that butts into the housing and use these knuckles...


http://www.dedenbear.com/TXToffroad.htm

XJ_ranger said:

have a machinist mill them down to d30 housing thickness right before the housing and have a "step" that butts into the housing

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That would be a turning operation, not a milling operation. "Have a machinist turn them down..."

What is the OD of a D60 tube? If it is significantly larger than the D30, you gotta make sure there is even enough wall thickness to turn the ends down to match the D30 OD.

And again, don't D60's use larger U-joints than D30/44? That would require a custom stub shaft, no? And one should also consider where the weak link is getting moved to.

Lawn Cher' said:

That would be a turning operation, not a milling operation. "Have a machinist turn them down..."

What is the OD of a D60 tube? If it is significantly larger than the D30, you gotta make sure there is even enough wall thickness to turn the ends down to match the D30 OD.

And again, don't D60's use larger U-joints than D30/44? That would require a custom stub shaft, no? And one should also consider where the weak link is getting moved to.

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on dedenbear's website, they list knuckles for 2.75" tube - my d30 in the garage has 2.5" OD tube IIRC and my d44 has 2.75" tube...

"turning" 1/4" of of 1/2" wall with the appropriate truss wouldnt be all that bad...

though - the u-joints are different and would require custom either stub shafts or custom inners to run the d-60 u-joints

just sometihng to look at

i considered running d60 outers on my d44, but then realized that i dindt even have the $$$ to run hi-steer much less run d60 outers...

One thing possibly overlooked, is the increase in braking capacity with the D44 outers. Look for a full build up of a hybrid soon, I have a crazy notion I want to try. Bigger brakes being one of the driving factors along with D44 strength and D30 ground clearance/weight.


Bob