Dana 44 Tech

[CRASH]

So, you’ve determined that for a variety of reasons the Dana 30 is not going to hold up for you. You need something bigger, manlier, beefier. Dana 44 is what I need, you say. Bravo. Splendid.

Now get ready for a reality check.

Shoving a Dana 44 under an XJ is not a bolt in affair. Far from it, actually. As I see it, you have two options:

1. Call Currie or Dynatrac, shell out $3,500 for a 44 built to factory specs.
2. Buy yourself a welder and learn to weld, ‘cause you’re going to need it.

As for the first option, a word of caution. Custom axle builders are often leery of modifying the stock bracketry to suit your particular needs. Which leads you into your first Catch-22. How do you know if you need modifications until you get your axle under the rig? Well, that’s why most folks go with option #2.

Physically, the Dana 44 is bigger than a 30 in every dimension. This leads to certain problems, which we’ll discuss later. There are also multiple Dana 44’s to choose from, as they’ve appeared in various forms on all domestic manufacturer’s vehicles from the mid 60’s to present. They are a fine upgrade axle for a Jeep that is going to run 36” and smaller tires, a built I-6 or mild V-8, and weighs less than 6,000 pounds. If you have an exceedingly light rig, like less than 3,500 pounds loaded for bear, you could get away with 37’s. More on limitations later.

OK, so, you’re still wanting to move forward on this swap. First, you’ll need to choose a housing as a foundation for your build. As I mentioned, the 44 is the most heavily used front axle by domestic manufacturers. It comes in standard and reverse spiral designs, with and without lock-out hubs, in 5 on 4.5”, 5 on 5.5”, 6 on 5.5” and 8 on 6.5” bolt patterns. Tube sixes range from 2.75” x .375” to 3” x .500”. For purposes of this article we’ll focus on the driver’s side third-member D-44’s. These include all Ford models from the mid 60’s to 1979, the full-size Jeep models from 1980 – 1984 (often referred to as “Waggy’s”), and 1994 to 2002 Dodge full size truck models.

Let’s begin with the Waggy’s. These axles are low pinion, i.e . have a standard cut gearset that enters the pumpkin below the centerline. They are 61.5” wide from the factory, have lock-out hubs, 12” disk brakes, and a 6 on 5.5” bolt pattern. The tubes are 2.75” x .375” wall, and they are set-up for leaf springs in a spring-under-axle configuration. These axles are popular swaps into late model jeeps because there is no need to narrow them, and they are easily changed to 5 on 5.5” pattern or left as six lug and paired with the OEM rear Waggy Dana 44.

In the late 1960’s Ford directed Dana to design a high pinion, reverse spiral 44 (see Dana 30 tech for info on reverse spiral axles). The first 3-4 years of production used a kingpin knuckle design that is obsolete, and difficult to play with. One could use an early housing and press aftermarket inner-knuckles on to fix this limitation. About 1970, Ford began utilizing a ball joint inner knuckle that is very common. The early to mid 70’s F-100 and F-150 Ford axles utilized drum brakes, and either a 5 bolt or 6 bolt spindle pattern.. This should not be confused with wheel bolt pattern. The spindle bolt pattern attaches the spindle to the outer knuckle. All F-100’s and F-150’s were a 5 on 5.5” wheel bolt pattern and they are about 67” wide, WMS to WMS. These early Ford units are desirable because Ford welded the suspension mounts (Radius Arm “C’s” as they are commonly known) to the axle tubes. Beginning in mid-to-late 1976, Ford began casting the suspension mounts as part of the inner knuckle assembly. These mounts take up a considerable amount of tube, and if you want to use any other than Ford’s suspension design, they will vex your efforts. In 77-79, the vaunted an highly prized (by Big Red, anyway) “Camper Special” F-150 was available. This is basically an F-250 axle with 5 on 5.5” outers which you are going to ditch anyway (more later). Don’t pay a premium for this unit unless you have the odd desire to run leaf springs, as the extra material in the leaf spring perch makes it difficult to mount link mounts. The same applies for the F-250’s of that vintage. In late 1979, Ford revamped there whole front suspension design, and introduced the highly undesirable, and quite frankly, gay, Twin Traction design.

The late model Dodge’s really should not be in consideration for a swap because they are lacking in two critical areas that are usually desirable to XJers. They have no provision to move the steering up to the top of the knuckle “high steer”, and they have no lockout hubs. They use a vacuum disconnect familiar to the early XJ’s. They also have little aftermarket support as far as axleshafts, etc.

OK, so you can see you’ve really got two choices if you want to run OEM XJ or custom suspension: The 70-76 Ford and the 80-86 Waggy. Hey, now we’re getting somewhere! If you want to go with the superior Ford RS design, you have to go through a couple of extra steps to get the width to about 60-62”. As far as I am concerned, you MUST cut the knuckles off of each axle anyway to set the proper caster. In the case of the Jeep, you can cut through the welds, turn the inner knuckles while they are on the housing, and re-weld. In the case of the Ford, if you want an axle that’s about XJ width, you can cut the inner knuckles totally off, cut through the weld, press out the stub, re-press onto the trimmed tube, and re-weld. When I say press, I don’t mean you need a hydraulic press, a large hammer will work, or you can rig up a press that uses threaded rod and washers.

How much do you turn? Well, this is going to depend on the amount of lift you have, but for purposes of this article, I’ll assume if you need a 44, you’ve got about 6” of lift to clear 35’s. Ideal handling at this height comes from about 4-7 degrees of castor. I’m very happy with 5 degrees. With the axle on a stand, you can measure the caster by putting an angle finder on the bottom flat of the inner knuckle where the ball joint presses in. If you set the caster here to 6 degrees, the pinion should be pointed up 13 degrees from horizontal (for an RS Ford). 2-3 degrees more if you’re at 8 inches of lift. Probably 4-5 degrees more if you've got a Waggy (Brett, chime in here). These are ballpark, but will get you pretty darned close. Remember, it’s not as critical because you’re going to have lock-out hubs, so your front DS won’t be spinning while going down the road. I can run mine, however, at 65 mph in 4 wheel drive with no vibes.

1978-1979 BRONCO (Length 18.91 in.; 30 Spline;Driver Side; ) 39143

1978-1979 BRONCO (Length 33.91 in.; 30 Spline;Passenger Side; ) 39144

1972-1977 BRONCO (Length 18.31 in.; 30 Spline;Driver Side; ) 38809

1972-1977 BRONCO (Length 27.94 in.; 30 Spline;Passenger Side; ) 38810

1968-1979 F-100 PICKUP (Length 18.91 in.; 30 Spline;Driver Side; ) 39143

1968-1979 F-100 PICKUP (Length 33.91 in.; 30 Spline;Passenger Side; ) 39144

1975-1979 F-150 PICKUP (Length 18.91 in.; 30 Spline;Driver Side; ) 39143

1975-1979 F-150 PICKUP (Length 33.91 in.; 30 Spline;Passenger Side; ) 39144





1980-1984 WAGONEER (Length 15.8 in.; 30 Spline;Passenger Side; ) 39459

1980-1984 WAGONEER (Length 32.12 in.; 30 Spline;Driver Side; ) 39461

1974-1979 WAGONEER Disc/Drum;Drum/Drum (Length 33.19 in.; 30 Spline;Driver Side; ) 39339

1974-1979 WAGONEER Disc/Drum;Drum/Drum (Length 14.69 in.; 30 Spline;Passenger Side; ) 38808



OK, so how about width. The above charts are excerpted from the Warn HD front axle catalogue (last number is the part number). I firmly believe that the 80-84 Waggy width is absolutely perfect for an XJ. Each shaft is the correct width to put the pumpkin far enough away from the track bar bracket, but not too close to the header. There is enough room on the driver’s side for the coil bucket and a slightly larger (i.e. Skyjacker) coil. I used the shorter early Waggy shaft on my short side and have a slight problem fitting the coil between the center-section casting and the inner knuckle. The shafts are off-the-shelf parts at Warn and Superior, so you can just order the part without custom machine work. To narrow a Ford 44 to the correct width, you’ll need to measure the length of a Waggy shaft from the end of the splines to the beginning of the yoke area. Then, with a carrier in the housing, take a tape measure and insert through the tube until the end slips over the female splines. Trim the tube so that the yoke collar has about 1/8” between the end of the tube and you have about 1/8” of travel before the splined end of the shaft hits the crosspin in the diff. This allows for some movement during turns. What ever axle shafts you choose, an easy way to calculate the OAL width of the finished assembly is to add the two shaft lengths together and add 13.6”.

A special note here for users who want to keep the Ford radius arm design. Many people have had success with this design, and it’s simple and cheap. To gain the advantages of the RS design, many people have narrowed the late model RS housing to match the width of the early Bronco shafts. This puts you at 60.5” wide, but the pumpkin gets awfully close to the header. It is quite easy to narrow the cast-in radius arm design axles of the late 70’s. Just cut the axle at the tube-casting juncture, get all the weld off, an press the remaining stub out. Trim the axle to your desired width, turn the knuckles appropriately, and weld the casting back on. I’ve done several this way, but used a custom shaft on the passenger side to give the owners a bit more width.

When welding the inner knuckles back on, use some care. You want to make sure that both are at the same caster angle and that they are square to the tube. A framing square and level comes in handy for this. The inner knuckles are forgings, so they are fairly easy to weld to, if it’s cold outside, pre-heat the tube and the forging with a propane torch to avoid thermal shock issues. Pre-heat is a nice extra step anyway to get any residual oil out of the metal’s pores, thus avoiding contamination.

Right, now we’ve got a good foundation. This is the point where you have to decide what you are doing about wheel bolt pattern and steering. If you want to keep regular old steering, and a 5 on 5.5” pattern, just throw any Ford outer assembly from 1976-1979 on. If you want to go to a high steer style, you need to do some searching for parts. The good news is that the aftermarket has really stepped up in recent years and you can get some hell-for-stout outer knuckles and high steer arms. Part’s Mike and Crane High Clearance both have heavy duty castings that are drilled and tapped for high steer arm studs. Instead of repeating all this steering stuff here, I’ll direct you to Bill Ansel’s excellent steering page:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Steering/Steering_Index/SteeringIndex.htm

For 5 on 5.5”, basically you want to use Chevy caliper brackets and calipers, Ford hub and rotor (cheap!) and an early Chevy small bearing spindle (not cheap!).

Ultimate 44.

Let’s get down to assembling parts for the ultimate 44. Basically, I’m describing the axle Jes and I just built for him, he’s got a thread here: http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=36273

I’d start with a Ford RS housing, narrowed to late model Waggy width. I’d use Moog HD ball joints, Warn or Superior shafts, Crane or Parts Mike outer knuckles, OTT or Parts Mike high steer arms, an ARB or Ox Locker and Warn hubs. CTM’s or OX’s would be my joint of choice, though Longfields and Jantz’z are more budget friendly. Built this way, a 44 is good for 36” tires, 37’s if you have a light (sub-3500lb) vehicle. The weak link seems to be either the stub shaft or the hub, as they seem to break interchangeably.

With the advent of new parts, an even better 44 is now available. You can now run an ARB or OX with 33 or 35 spline inner axles. If you left the 19 spline outers you wouldn’t be gaining anything. But, with a Warn spindle designed for 5 on5.5” Dana 30 application, you could run a 30 spline outer. I think the hub would then definitely be the weak link, but you could always run a Warn 30 spline drive flange for the ultimate in strength. I think this setup could stand up to 37s.

Suspension.

We could around and around on what work and what doesn’t. I love the URF “Disappearing 3 link”; radius arms are cheap and bulletproof but have some problems with anti-dive geometry and unloading on steep climbs; the stock junk works, I guess, but tends to eat bushings, and the control angles are horrible. My thought on this is that if you are going to all the trouble of building a 44, why not build a cool suspension to go with it? I can’t believe I’m going to say this, but even a well executed leaf spring design with a good spring pack and a traction bar would be better than the stock stuff. Be creative.

One word of caution, if you are going to need a mount up above the casting, don’t weld directly to it. Build an axle bridge similar to RE’s. The chances of cracking the casting are very high even if you know what you are doing with a welder. Much safer to just buy the RE bridge if you don’t have the facilities to make one.

Another thing. If you are going to use high steer arm, they tend to be a bit shorter than OEM XJ knuckle steering arms, so if you put your coil bucket in the OEM position, the tie rod will touch the spring on full lock turning. Do yourself a favor and move the coil back at least an inch. This helps straighten out the coil anyway, so no reason not to do it.

CRASH

[hjeepxj]

Helluva write up crash... :cheers:

[BillR]

REAL nice write-up!
Where the hell was it BEFORE I had to learn this stuff the hard way? :repair: :laugh3:

[Big Red]

Nice write up Andy!!! I was hoping really hoping to run the 37" mtrs on my 8" beadlocks from my CJ7 buggy on my XJ with my hp44/35 spline 9" so I'm very upset that based on your comments it will not be that durable. Do you base this on Richard breaking down with his 37" MTRs? I also read that you had some at home, but decided not to run them. With the 44 up front, how much ground clearance do you lose by going to it from the hp30? Did you & Jes get hung up that much more with the hp44? I know that Jes just made the jump so he would probably be able to answer this question better, because you probably have gotten used to the reduced ground clearance with your 44 up front.

After spending the $ on the hp44/9", I like knowing I have a strong setup, but I really almost wish I stayed with 33" tires and the hp30/44 setup. :mad:

Thanks for all the info Andy, I know you have puts lots of time in trying to clear stuff up for us here. I gave you a huge rep boost, thanks again. :)

Troy

[Ron4x4]

Crash Thanks, Great information. I have a question though. I am in the middle of building a Waggy 44 and have all the brackets made just not welded on, I am hesitant to weld them on before taking the measurements off of my stock D30. I have searched for drawings or some thing that would give me dimesions of the stock D30. for instance: the angle that the UCA mounts are located in relation to the axle housing. I have to wait to take out the D30 Until the lift is finished, because it is a daily driver.

[ryurabbit]

I think the axle tech for XJ's is now covered and should be linked to as often as questions from noobs arise. Very good info and I commend CRASH for putting forth the effort. I wish I had half of his energy and time. Soon hopefully very soon!!

[BillR]

Crash Thanks, Great information. I have a question though. I am in the middle of building a Waggy 44 and have all the brackets made just not welded on, I am hesitant to weld them on before taking the measurements off of my stock D30. I have searched for drawings or some thing that would give me dimesions of the stock D30. for instance: the angle that the UCA mounts are located in relation to the axle housing. I have to wait to take out the D30 Until the lift is finished, because it is a daily driver.
I know what you mean. I actually borrowed a spare HP30 housing to get measurements from while welding the brackets. (Thanks Brian!)

[CRASH]

Crash Thanks, Great information. I have a question though. I am in the middle of building a Waggy 44 and have all the brackets made just not welded on, I am hesitant to weld them on before taking the measurements off of my stock D30. I have searched for drawings or some thing that would give me dimesions of the stock D30. for instance: the angle that the UCA mounts are located in relation to the axle housing. I have to wait to take out the D30 Until the lift is finished, because it is a daily driver.

I can look at the 30's I have and give you an angle in the next couple of days.

Basically, we need dimensions and angles of all the stock mounts. Though, you should realize you'll have to fudge a bit on the LCA mounts and the coil buckets, as they need to be pushed outward a bit from stock to clear the pumpkin. It doesn't cause any problem when you use RE joints or heims, as they have plenty of flexibility to accomodate teh 1/2" or so change. If you have all rubber, you may have to do something about the frame side LCA mount. Also, the springs are actually a bit happier when they are splayed out a bit.

CRASH

[CRASH]

Nice write up Andy!!! I was hoping really hoping to run the 37" mtrs on my 8" beadlocks from my CJ7 buggy on my XJ with my hp44/35 spline 9" so I'm very upset that based on your comments it will not be that durable. Do you base this on Richard breaking down with his 37" MTRs? I also read that you had some at home, but decided not to run them. With the 44 up front, how much ground clearance do you lose by going to it from the hp30? Did you & Jes get hung up that much more with the hp44? I know that Jes just made the jump so he would probably be able to answer this question better, because you probably have gotten used to the reduced ground clearance with your 44 up front.



After spending the $ on the hp44/9", I like knowing I have a strong setup, but I really almost wish I stayed with 33" tires and the hp30/44 setup. :mad:

Thanks for all the info Andy, I know you have puts lots of time in trying to clear stuff up for us here. I gave you a huge rep boost, thanks again. :)

Troy


Durability is what you make of it. We are breaking stuff on the most extreme obstacles, in the most extreme rocks you can take a full body XJ through (and someplaces you really shouldn't). You can break anything anywhere if you are not smart about your driving.

If you don't mind replacing hubs and stubs, run the 37's. Just carry spares and know how to work on your junk so you don't hold up your group. If you want to be virtually bulletproof, stick with 35's.

I have not broken a single D-44 part in 4 years on 35's. And you've seen me drive.

CRASH

[Ramsey]

very nice, these need to be stickies

[XJ_ranger]

You must spread some Rock Rash around before giving it to CRASH again.


a thread like this should have a link to Mr N's page...

http://77cj.littlekeylime.com/web_rs44.html

he has quite a bit of info as far a choices for the 44, and that is why i chose my 76 f-150 d44.

thanks CRASH

I hope to meet you on the trail some day...

[Big Red]

Durability is what you make of it. We are breaking stuff on the most extreme obstacles, in the most extreme rocks you can take a full body XJ through (and someplaces you really shouldn't). You can break anything anywhere if you are not smart about your driving.

If you don't mind replacing hubs and stubs, run the 37's. Just carry spares and know how to work on your junk so you don't hold up your group. If you want to be virtually bulletproof, stick with 35's.

I have not broken a single D-44 part in 4 years on 35's. And you've seen me drive.

CRASH

I will probably stick with my 35" mtrs then. :tears: So a hp44 only gives you another 2" tire size increase from 33's to 35's over the hp30??? That really sucks, but the dana 44 does have alot of positives like true hi-steer, manual hubs, much lower gearing options etc, so it is still worth, I just really want to run my 37's, but I don't want to break down all the time either.

Thanks again Crash, can the appropriate person please sticky Crash's axle and gearing threads. They are the Bible here on NAXJA. :) Maybe we can create a section just for these threads that newbies and others looking to upgrade can refer to. A sticky modificaton section that will not get bogged down with too many responses.

[reson46]

Is there a reason you don't recommend the D44 from the Wagoneer up until it's demise in '91? Did something change in the mid-80s to weaken it?

Thanks,
William Crawley

[Big Red]

Is there a reason you don't recommend the D44 from the Wagoneer up until it's demise in '91? Did something change in the mid-80s to weaken it?

Thanks,
William Crawley

They went with vacuum disco crap in those years and got rid of their manual hubs. That's the only reason I can think of. They are driver side and the right width so that has to be why.

[reson46]

They went with vacuum disco crap in those years and got rid of their manual hubs. That's the only reason I can think of. They are driver side and the right width so that has to be why.

I see... Makes sense now.

Thanks,
William Crawley

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

Since this thread might see quite a bit of viewing, I thought I should post a link to my front axle build from awhile ago. www.madxj.com in the tech section. If anybody else has a writup on their d44 build, this might be a good place for a link.
http://www.madxj.com/MADXJ/technical/technicalfiles/JAfrontD44arb/FrontD44arb.htm

Jeff

[XJ_ranger]

Since this thread might see quite a bit of viewing, I thought I should post a link to my front axle build from awhile ago. www.madxj.com (http://www.madxj.com) in the tech section. If anybody else has a writup on their d44 build, this might be a good place for a link.
http://www.madxj.com/MADXJ/technical/technicalfiles/JAfrontD44arb/FrontD44arb.htm

Jeff

still have that jig? that would be well worth the fun drive to Madison... Ill pay you in beer for its use...

-Ranger

[xj-grin]

They went with vacuum disco crap in those years and got rid of their manual hubs. That's the only reason I can think of. They are driver side and the right width so that has to be why.

vac disconnect only in mid 83-85. so the 81-83 and 86-91 Waggys are good to go...

[Gil BullyKatz]

I'm still trying to figure out if I have a 77 or 78 f150 or bronco HP44...

5 x 5.5 Wheel pattern

The radius arm mounts are welded...

but it has disk brakes...

Going to run a Farmer Matt inspired modified Radius arm design...

Thanks for the write-up Crash...

Good reading

[CRASH]

Yeah, the late models ones should work fine. I used 84 as the cut-off because that's how they appear in the Warn guide and I didn't want confusion.

All you guys like Jeff that have done 44 builds should post links. The more info, the merrier.

I really wish I could edit that post with Rubicon and export 44 info, as I had a page written and forgot to add it. I don't want to break it up by posting here. ****Hint-Hint, moderators****

CRASH

[CRASH]

I'm still trying to figure out if I have a 77 or 78 f150 or bronco HP44...

5 x 5.5 Wheel pattern

The radius arm mounts are welded...

but it has disk brakes...

Going to run a Farmer Matt inspired modified Radius arm design...

Thanks for the write-up Crash...

Good reading

That's a funky mid-year change thing that Ford is famous for. Could be a late 76 or early 77. Who cares, run it.

CRASH

[Gil BullyKatz]

That's a funky mid-year change thing that Ford is famous for. Could be a late 76 or early 77. Who cares, run it.

CRASH


"zactly...

[jeepme]

I will probably stick with my 35" mtrs then. :tears: So a hp44 only gives you another 2" tire size increase from 33's to 35's over the hp30??? That really sucks, but the dana 44 does have alot of positives like true hi-steer, manual hubs, much lower gearing options etc, so it is still worth, I just really want to run my 37's, but I don't want to break down all the time either.

Thanks again Crash, can the appropriate person please sticky Crash's axle and gearing threads. They are the Bible here on NAXJA. :) Maybe we can create a section just for these threads that newbies and others looking to upgrade can refer to. A sticky modificaton section that will not get bogged down with too many responses.

Troy
Sounds like a Ford f350 HPD60 might be in your future :laugh3:

[Jump This]

Its info like this that makes me wonder why people of other on-line XJ groups call this NAXBLAHHHHH.
Okay, so I know why....there is a lot of 'I heard this works...' kinda thing...
but thanks Crash...your time and effert are noticed and appreciated!
Now we need to get you to do a write up on the 8.25 rear end!
RickR :sunshine:

[JnJ]

Great tech, two things, like said before, watch out for vac waggy 44s and you don't HAVE TO rotate the knuckles, I was at 7" with longarms, waggy 44 without rotating the knuckles and it handled great even at highway speeds with no steering stablizer.

[Big Red]

Troy
Sounds like a Ford f350 HPD60 might be in your future :laugh3:

No kidding but that's alot of weight up front, but plenty beefy. I still would be o.k. with my 35 spline 9", well maybe then I'd go up to a 40 spline 9" but I still would probably be o.k. with it.

I do still think that 35's are perfect on a XJ, but with my dana 44/9" combo I was hoping to move up to 37's to get more ground clearance to gain back with I lost with the bigger axles. Oh well, I rather have better peace of mind and run the 35's at least my $ will be in the right direction then, no use running 37's only to have the same problems I could of had with my 35's on my hp30. This is a visous cycle. :laugh3:

Troy

[CW]

I don't see a reason why a 35 spline arb, alloy shafts, and ctms in a d44 wouldn't take 37's. I run 36's on stock shafts and joints and have never had a problem, but I don't see rocks much either.

[explorer]

Some would say your not wheeling it hard enough. I would say your just a good, sensible driver.

[CRASH]

I don't see a reason why a 35 spline arb, alloy shafts, and ctms in a d44 wouldn't take 37's. I run 36's on stock shafts and joints and have never had a problem, but I don't see rocks much either.


Well, how about this?:

The last 3 times I've wheeled with Goatman (6 month span) he has broken SOMETHING in the front end. That included two stubs, two hubs and a CTM. All on 37's.

In the previous 4 years, when he was on 35's, he broke exactly once, a CTM.

CRASH

[Lincoln]

I don't see a reason why a 35 spline arb, alloy shafts, and ctms in a d44 wouldn't take 37's. I run 36's on stock shafts and joints and have never had a problem, but I don't see rocks much either.

No one makes a 35 spline shaft with a 297 sized joint. You wouldn't end up getting much strength if they did because the joint, stub, and hub are so much weaker than the shaft. Would be almost pointless. I highly doubt anyone ever makes a shaft for that combo.

Personally I think a 44 center section with 35 spline ARB and 60 outters would be a good setup. If your going to a very big tire or a bunch of power the ring gear strength might end up being an issue. Stay tuned.

[Lincoln]

Well, how about this?:

The last 3 times I've wheeled with Goatman (6 month span) he has broken SOMETHING in the front end. That included two stubs, two hubs and a CTM. All on 37's.

In the previous 4 years, when he was on 35's, he broke exactly once, a CTM.

CRASH

He didn't seem to have much of a problem until added the stroker to the 37's. :D

[ChuckD]

Well, how about this?:

The last 3 times I've wheeled with Goatman (6 month span) he has broken SOMETHING in the front end. That included two stubs, two hubs and a CTM. All on 37's.

In the previous 4 years, when he was on 35's, he broke exactly once, a CTM.

CRASH


Maybe he is just getting sloppy in his old age. :D

[Lincoln]

Maybe he is just getting sloppy in his old age. :D

You might be on to something there. Other options could be he is becoming blind and can't tell how big stuff is (could explain the broken housing) or he might be getting arthritis is his right ankle causing spasms at the wrong time.

[BrettM]

I can’t believe I’m going to say this, but even a well executed leaf spring design with a good spring pack and a traction bar would be better than the stock stuff. Be creative.
CRASH

:laugh3:


A lot of GREAT info here CRASH, thanks!

All the 80+ Waggys are good donors, except watch out for the vacuum disco in 83-85. You'll notice it, it's a box on the diff cover with several vacuum lines coming out.

Rotating knuckles is a must on a LP D44. I like my caster at 6 degrees, but that puts the pinion both very, very close to the ground, and gives a terrible driveshaft angle (7" lift with front axle 2" forward) that would bind easily under droop. Rotating isn't that hard, just takes a little time. I rotated mine 16 degrees higher than stock, this is actually higher than pointing right at the t-case because I wanted to both prevent u-joint bind and get better pinion/driveshaft clearance. I also don't use my 4wd except in 4low, I have selectable hubs, and I lengthened my driveshaft myself so it isn't balanced anyway.

If you use stock shafts with 760x joints, WELD THE CAPS IN. 35s on Sierra rocks, this combo has survived one tough summer and a little snow wheelin. I attribute much of this to the ARB keeping the stress off the shafts 99% of the time that I don't use it.

Something that may be worth adding to this writeup is the gear ratios available (I'll keep it to offroad friendly ratios, info fromhere (http://www.randysringandpinion.com/content/products/default.asp?vid=4&pid=5) ):

Low Pinion:
4.09 (standard and thick, for a 3.73down carrier)
4.27
4.55
4.56 (thick gears)
4.88 (thick gears)
4.89
5.13
5.38
5.89

High Pinion
4.09
4.56
4.88
5.13
5.38

As for aftermarket, this is just cool :D :
http://www.highclearance.com/images/centersection/44-cs-frt-250.jpg

[CRASH]

Thanks for the guidance on the LP pinion rotation stuff, as you know, I avoid them like the plague! :D

Thanks for the ratios, I forgot that.

I need edit powers so that I can edit the original post and include all this good stuff for the newbs with a short attention span.

CRASH

[afd516]

I am in the process of building a 35 spine 9'' for the rear and a 76 "waggy" D44 for the front. This is a learning process for me and I was under the impression (not from this forum) that you could run larger tires than 35". Apperently, I was mistaken. This being the case, what becomes the weak link and what do I have to do to the D44 to make it strong enough to go with larger tires? I would like to run Interco TSL 38". Also, is there an aftermarket bracket kit to install the D44 into my XJ? Do I try to use the stock brakets or do I need to fabricate some new ones? I have the ability to do any of the options just what would be best? This is not a daily driver, its an expensive toy. Thanks in advance to any responses.

[CRASH]

I am in the process of building a 35 spine 9'' for the rear and a 76 "waggy" D44 for the front. This is a learning process for me and I was under the impression (not from this forum) that you could run larger tires than 35". Apperently, I was mistaken. This being the case, what becomes the weak link and what do I have to do to the D44 to make it strong enough to go with larger tires? I would like to run Interco TSL 38". Also, is there an aftermarket bracket kit to install the D44 into my XJ? Do I try to use the stock brakets or do I need to fabricate some new ones? I have the ability to do any of the options just what would be best? This is not a daily driver, its an expensive toy. Thanks in advance to any responses.


I guess the post should have included my standard disclaimer:

I like to play in big, gnarly rocks. Rocks with sharp edges and undercuts. Rocks with plenty of traction and tight turns. Your mileage may vary in slipery conditions.

You may not believe this, but I have an aquaintance who has broken 23 (twenty-three) D-44 front axleshafts with 38's. He never even left the mild rock trails of NorCal. Gawd knows what the tally would have been running the serious rocks of the SoCal desert and Az.

He upgraded to a 60, as should you.

CRASH

[afd516]

Well that is a suggestion that I never thought of. That would not be a problem. It would not be any less work and I can return the D44 to the yard I got it from. My brother works there so I would not be out any money. As for the D60 out of what should I try to obtain this from. You know, now that you mention it what do you think about another 9" in the front, other than the obvios cost and fabrication? There is still the question of bracketry.

[CRASH]

Well that is a suggestion that I never thought of. That would not be a problem. It would not be any less work and I can return the D44 to the yard I got it from. My brother works there so I would not be out any money. As for the D60 out of what should I try to obtain this from. You know, now that you mention it what do you think about another 9" in the front, other than the obvios cost and fabrication? There is still the question of bracketry.


In the "Axles for Rocks" thread I started, you'll see mention of the TruHi9. That's what you'd want for a front axle application. www.truehi9.com.

You'd want to pair it with 35 spline shafts and a 332x u-joints. This means all Dana 60 outers. Definately not a junkyard proposition, but very cool and stout.

I'd look for a 60 from a 77-79 Ford truck, thay have a bit more room on the driver's side for a coil spring bucket and LCA bracket than the 80+ Fords. Those trucks moved the center section toward the driver's side tire in order to make room for the aforementioned TTB (gay) engine crossmember/suspension mount.

CRASH

[afd516]

I am aware of the 9" with D60 outers and for what I am thinking I will put this thing through, that may be my best option. Better to spend the time and money now rather than working on it on the trail because I didn't "do it right the first time". Thanks, Crash, for your expertise and pointing me in the right direction. Sam

[HTeK]

I can’t believe I’m going to say this, but even a well executed leaf spring design with a good spring pack and a traction bar would be better than the stock stuff. Be creative.
CRASH

My life is now complete. I will continue my front leaf spring build with appropriate approval from the WCGIC. :dunce:

Oh yeah... awesome writeups, TONS of great info! I thank you for the time you have been dedicating to this.

-justin

[JeepFreak21]

Great job CRASH!! :cheers:
Billy

[Capt. Nemo]

I am in the process of building a 35 spine 9'' for the rear and a 76 "waggy" D44 for the front. This is a learning process for me and I was under the impression (not from this forum) that you could run larger tires than 35". Apperently, I was mistaken. This being the case, what becomes the weak link and what do I have to do to the D44 to make it strong enough to go with larger tires? I would like to run Interco TSL 38". Also, is there an aftermarket bracket kit to install the D44 into my XJ? Do I try to use the stock brakets or do I need to fabricate some new ones? I have the ability to do any of the options just what would be best? This is not a daily driver, its an expensive toy. Thanks in advance to any responses.


I'll direct this at Big Red also...

If you want to run 37's, run 37's! It seems there's this stigma surrounding this particular tire size. There are a ton of variables that play into breakage of axle parts, tire size being just one of those variables. If you're prepared ahead of time to fix your rig, as you should be anyway, run whatever you want. If you're looking for approval, back away from the 37's until you have the "right" axle in front.

Maybe the next tech focus should be on tires and rims with a chart that can list the different tire manufacter's actual tire size (ie. a 35" tire doesn't typically measure 35" tall...), weights, compunds (and how those compunds affect our coveted traction), etc. Maybe a seperate comparison of rims: steel, aluminum, beadlocks, etc. including weights, and material composition for strength comparisons. I'll have to set up a poll to nominate our lucky researching candidate, cause' I sure aint doin' it.

I guess my main point is that a 35 on a steel rim is not that much lighter than a 37 from the same manufacter on the right aluminum rim. If you want to run 37's, run them. Tell us your experiences. Expalin what happened if you break. Who knows, you may be just that one person whose run 37's for years and never broken anything. You'll never know until you ACTUALLY try it. If you're out for approval, you're on the board for the wrong reasons and should have never even considered 37's in the first place.

CRASH- great article.

[shayzj]

Hey I just registered so I could post some useful info. I have a ZJ that I am in the process of putting a Waggy 44 in up front which is really no different in the front than the XJ.

I got my front brackets from www.claytonoffroad.com and it is a nice setup. He sent me a cad drawing for setting up the brackets on the axle and I thought I would share it with you guys. As you can see the upper control arm mounts are set at 105 degrees from center.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003067.jpg

Here are the brackets laid out that have to be installed. Pretty intimidating for me anyway.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003066.jpg

Here I have gotten started but still have a way to go.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003066.jpg

Hope this helps. I have gotten alot of great info from this site and would glad to help out in return.

Shay

[explorer]

Right on Nemo. I agree with your entire though process here. And as an example(not my own), A local 4wd business owner runs 37" BFG KM's with 30/44 axles w/ARB diffs in both ends. Also 4-1 t-case. Stock frt. shafts and original u-joints w/ lots of road miles. He has not broken anything yet. The Jeep has been on its side once or twice I believe, and has been out west and done alot of the rocks. He has a very slow and easy driving style when it comes to big rocks.

[Root Moose]

Along the lines of tire size for a particualr axle, etc.

35" Interco != 35" BFG

That is, if you are going to add a caveat that 35s on a certain axle is about the upper limit make sure that you say that is a "light" 35" tire or a heavy, gnarly rock grabber.

FWIW, from what I've seen up here the wheeling here will stand up to 37-38" tires (gnarly or not) on Dana 44s regardless of tire type. Those that have breakages tend to be harder on the loud pedal or have hit the fatigue limit of the junkyard axle they started with.

You can tell the fatigue limit: a breakage within the first few runs of getting the rig working, replacement with new OEM parts, no more breakage.

Gotta remember, a lot of times we are running someone else's junk - it got into that yard for a reason. Don't be too surprised if something breaks.

r@m

[shayzj]

Hope this helps for the ones setting up brackets. This is a cad drawing by www.claytonoffroad.com.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003067.jpg

Shay

[rockwerks]

I'm still trying to figure out if I have a 77 or 78 f150 or bronco HP44...

5 x 5.5 Wheel pattern

The radius arm mounts are welded...

but it has disk brakes...

Going to run a Farmer Matt inspired modified Radius arm design...

Thanks for the write-up Crash...

Good reading

Mine was a 76 f150, I believe the 78 had cast raduis arm mounts

good job crash

[XJZ]

Excellent.

Is this the end of the series or do you have front Dana 60 tech yet to come?

[BrettM]

he's done Dana 30 and 44 for the front, which he has had both of, and he's covered lots of rear axles that he has first and second hand experience with. So I doubt there is any real 60 tech coming down the tubes because he doesn't have one and I don't think he has nearly the amount of research and experience on 60s since his 44 is working great for him.


besides, there's already a TON of great 60 tech here: http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/index.html

[XJack]

I really wish I could edit that post with Rubicon and export 44 info, as I had a page written and forgot to add it. I don't want to break it up by posting here. ****Hint-Hint, moderators****

CRASH

Great tech on these articles Crash!

I'd like to see what you've written about the Rubi/Export axles.

IMHO, they're a viable option in the gravel, shale, and muck of PA. I've seen them running 37's and a light foot with no breakage - my export 44 handles 33's with no probs.

[Root Moose]

Great tech on these articles Crash!

I'd like to see what you've written about the Rubi/Export axles.

IMHO, they're a viable option in the gravel, shale, and muck of PA. I've seen them running 37's and a light foot with no breakage - my export 44 handles 33's with no probs.
Ditto, stick it in an export/rubi specific thread and link the others...should work fine and keep the "oddball" tech in it's own thread.

r@m

[Jeepin Jason]

Hey shay, interesting pics. Is that something new that Clayton just released? There's no info at all about it on his site. Were there instructions on how all the pieces fit together? I'm having a hard time figuring out what the large plates w/o any holes are for...

edit: nevermind, I see them in the cad printout now.

[afd516]

I'll direct this at Big Red also...

If you want to run 37's, run 37's! It seems there's this stigma surrounding this particular tire size. There are a ton of variables that play into breakage of axle parts, tire size being just one of those variables. If you're prepared ahead of time to fix your rig, as you should be anyway, run whatever you want. If you're looking for approval, back away from the 37's until you have the "right" axle in front.

Maybe the next tech focus should be on tires and rims with a chart that can list the different tire manufacter's actual tire size (ie. a 35" tire doesn't typically measure 35" tall...), weights, compunds (and how those compunds affect our coveted traction), etc. Maybe a seperate comparison of rims: steel, aluminum, beadlocks, etc. including weights, and material composition for strength comparisons. I'll have to set up a poll to nominate our lucky researching candidate, cause' I sure aint doin' it.

I guess my main point is that a 35 on a steel rim is not that much lighter than a 37 from the same manufacter on the right aluminum rim. If you want to run 37's, run them. Tell us your experiences. Expalin what happened if you break. Who knows, you may be just that one person whose run 37's for years and never broken anything. You'll never know until you ACTUALLY try it. If you're out for approval, you're on the board for the wrong reasons and should have never even considered 37's in the first place.

CRASH- great article.

[afd516]

I like your thoughts. I just know how I drive, agressive but safe, I just need to do more research to figure out what would be best for my application. I know one thing is for sure I hate being "that guy" fixing my rig on the trail. I'd rather be wheelin! If you have any more info I would be glad to hear it, Sam.

[shayzj]

Hey shay, interesting pics. Is that something new that Clayton just released? There's no info at all about it on his site. Were there instructions on how all the pieces fit together? I'm having a hard time figuring out what the large plates w/o any holes are for...

edit: nevermind, I see them in the cad printout now.




The flat plates go on top of the lower mounts and are the base for the spring pad. Yea it confuses me also and the cad drawing is all I have to go on. He doesn't have the front axle bracket kit on his site but he does sell them. Not cheaply though I might add. Very beefy kit though.

By the way I keep trying to edit my post but can find that option. Where is the edit button?

[Jeepin Jason]

I dunno, sometimes I edit my posts, and sometimes not...

Does he give any tips/ideas on how to get the driver-side UCA mount on top of the diff? I know RE's kit uses a nice bridge across the top of the diff, but I see no such thing in those brackets from Clayton.

edit: OK, it looks like you can edit your posts for a short time after it's posted, I'm not sure what the "time limit" is though. You may also have to be a NAXJA member to get that functionality.

[afd516]

Hope this helps for the ones setting up brackets. This is a cad drawing by www.claytonoffroad.com.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003067.jpg

Shay

[afd516]

Thanks for the info on these brackets. I had just went to there website and emailed them about where there kit was and how much it was. Apperantly someone else is interested. When I get A reply i will let you all know. By the way, when you get these brackets installed let us know how it went for you. Thanks, Sam.

[Jeepin Jason]

Clayton's kit better not be any more than $379, which is how much RE's kit costs, and for the most part, RE's kit looks to be better and more complete. Clayton's coil buckets are pretty trick looking though.

[shayzj]

Here is a pic of another axle that Clayton worked on himself. He just welds the hell out of it but he is an awesome welder and I am not. I do have some nickel rod and have been practicing on an old diff just to make myself a little more confident.

http://forum.newjo.org/uploads/post-11-1082214393.jpg


And here is a pic of the passenger side completed on the above axle not mine.

http://forum.newjo.org/uploads/post-11-1082214496.jpg

And here is a shot of my axle where I have just begun welding up the first part

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003137.jpg



Also I think he asks $399 for the brackets but I had a 20% off coupon, plus I have purchased all the rest of his goodies over the past 5 years so it was an easy choice for me.

Shay

[XJ_ranger]

Also I think he asks $399 for the brackets

that is what he quoted me for the brackets after i e-mailed him...

-Ranger

[cLAYH]

This is great TECH! And just in time. I'm currently narrowing a HPD44 from a '79 F250.

One question, how important is the groove in the spring bucket for the bottom of the coil spring? I'm planning to fab my own brackets and looking at that kit from Claytons I realived that I have no idea how to duplicate that. What have others done that have fabbed their own brackets?

[Jeff 98XJ WI]

And here is a shot of my axle where I have just begun welding up the first part

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003137.jpg



Also I think he asks $399 for the brackets but I had a 20% off coupon, plus I have purchased all the rest of his goodies over the past 5 years so it was an easy choice for me.

Shay[/QUOTE]

That looks like a real nice start! One thing about Claytons brackets is that they mount the control arms right behind the axle tube. It looks like the upper mounts are raised also. I'm not sure if the RE brackets mount the Lower Control Arms that high. Still, for $400, I'll build my own brackets...like I did!! :)

http://www.madxj.com/MADXJ/technical/technicalfiles/JAfrontD44arb/images/large/AugFrontD44Update07.jpg

http://www.madxj.com/MADXJ/technical/technicalfiles/JAfrontD44arb/images/large/AugFrontD44Update08.jpg

http://www.madxj.com/MADXJ/technical/technicalfiles/JAfrontD44arb/images/large/AugFrontD44Update05.jpg

Jeff

[Jeepin Jason]

$399? Seriously? And it has no provisions for swaybar mounts or a steering stabilizer mount? And you have to weld to the diff housing itself? Man, if I was buying brackets, I think I'd save myself $20 and get the more complete RE kit.

[Jes]

Man, if I was buying brackets, I think I'd save myself $20 and get the more complete RE kit.

Or spend $20 in steel and make your own brackets.
http://www.fototime.com/{9C38069C-B892-4AA2-915B-AE879A3E45AC}/picture.JPG

[shayzj]

Oh well for what it is worth I finished welding up the axle yesterday and thought I would post some completed pics.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003159.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003160.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003161.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003164.jpg

Shay

[Jeepin Jason]

what'd you do to the left side of the diff housing where the case leaf perch used to be???

[shayzj]

You have to cut most of it off for the spring perch and other mounts. Well with nothing to go buy I cut a little too much off and to feel safer I cut some 3in dia. pipe in half and welded it all back up to help support the area.

Shay

[trailxj]

$399? Seriously? And it has no provisions for swaybar mounts or a steering stabilizer mount? And you have to weld to the diff housing itself? Man, if I was buying brackets, I think I'd save myself $20 and get the more complete RE kit.


also, what about bump stops? with those coil mounts you have even less bump stop than stock??

[Jeepin Jason]

You have to cut most of it off for the spring perch and other mounts. Well with nothing to go buy I cut a little too much off and to feel safer I cut some 3in dia. pipe in half and welded it all back up to help support the area.

Shay

Interesting. On the waggy 44 I'm messing with, the brackets on that side were just welded directly to the diff housing (not by me though).

[shayzj]

Yea you are right no bumpstops, no swaybar mounts ( I will make some), no steering stabilizer mount( I don't run one anyway) It will all work out.

I would have welded to the perch if I had to but that is not how he designed the kit and I went by what Clayton said so we will just have to wait and see how it works out. All I know is that I have seen two of these kits on waggy 44's and both have been beat on VERY hard so I will just keep my fingers crossed.

Shay

[Jeepin Jason]

so Clayton recommended cutting off that section of the diff housing? Assuming there's enough tube left in the housing end to be strong enough, that would certainly simplify things a LOT when putting the brackets on on that side.

[shayzj]

Yes that is the way he does it and it works well for his major abuse!

Shay

[hjeepxj]

BTT

AND, I have been doing some research on EB 44s....Right length, good coil mounting positions, welded wedges...

2 Cons: 260s and Drums...

But both are easy fixes!

More info here:

http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=31448

[BillR]

BTT

AND, I have been doing some research on EB 44s....Right length, good coil mounting positions, welded wedges...

2 Cons: 260s and Drums...

But both are easy fixes!

More info here:

http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=31448
You forgot LP Andrew... :wave:

[hjeepxj]

You forgot LP Andrew... :wave:


Dang. :laugh:

Still like doing a waggy axle I guess. :wierd:

[BillR]

Dang. :laugh:

Still like doing a waggy axle I guess. :wierd:
Yeah...
I really don't think a LP axle's a huge deal with manual hubs. You're only using the front axle when wheeling, so freeway vibes are a non-issue.
I'm not sure how much of an "upgrade" a LP 44 is from a HP30 though.

[Gil BullyKatz]

IIRC using an early bronco 44 will place the diff quite a few inches closer to center as well...

Exhaust issues I think...

[HTeK]

I'm not sure how much of an "upgrade" a LP 44 is from a HP30 though.

-lockout hubs
-serviceable hub bearings
-Bigger ball joints
-Stronger axle housing
-larger axleshafts

While you may not consider that an "upgrade" of any sort, i do :)

While I have heard speculation that HP30 & LP44 gearsets are essentially the same strength, i'm not smart enough to make any claims.

-jm

[BrettM]

-lockout hubs
-serviceable hub bearings
-Bigger ball joints
-Stronger axle housing
-larger axleshafts

While you may not consider that an "upgrade" of any sort, i do :)

While I have heard speculation that HP30 & LP44 gearsets are essentially the same strength, i'm not smart enough to make any claims.

-jm
in regards to strength of the gearset:

It has been argued that LPD44 and HPD30 are of approximately equal gear strength. For the sake of arguement I will concede this point, though the only way it could possibly be true is when talking about being in forward gears.

So when is a front gear set put under the most strain? When most the vehicle weight is on it, IE, when the front is downhill of the rear. But going downhill you are not fighting gravity, so there is no major strain. The time of most strain is with the front downhill of the rear and also fighting gravity, IE, reverse gear. In reverse gear a LPD44 is WAY, WAY stronger than a HPD30, even stronger than a HPD44.

This of course does nothing to help driveshaft/pinion ground clearance, there are obvious advantages there. I'd rather have a HPD44 than a LP, but the argument that HPD30 gears are just as strong as LPD44 gears is complete BS. (not to mention the effects of housing/carrier flex on D30 gears)

[hjeepxj]

IIRC using an early bronco 44 will place the diff quite a few inches closer to center as well...

Exhaust issues I think...


True on the more centered diff, untree w/teh exhaust: :confused:

http://64.81.100.86/~dtabb/images/done/done03.jpg

[JJacobs]

So when is a front gear set put under the most strain?

On the gas, bouncing. Which usually happens going forward.

[XJ_ranger]

I'm not sure how much of an "upgrade" a LP 44 is from a HP30 though.

lets leave that http://www.pritchettcartoons.com/illustrations/worms.gif out of this good tech eh?

im going to be needing this thread during summer...

-Super Newb

[BillR]

-lockout hubs
-serviceable hub bearings
-Bigger ball joints
-Stronger axle housing
-larger axleshafts

While you may not consider that an "upgrade" of any sort, i do :)

While I have heard speculation that HP30 & LP44 gearsets are essentially the same strength, i'm not smart enough to make any claims.

-jm
All examples are true. My point is that if you're going to go to the work and sizeable expense of doing a front 44, and you end up with little or no increase in R&P strength AND you lose ground clearence at the same time (LP44 vs HP30)... :gag:
If the goal is just better brakes and hubs, there are cheaper ways to acomplish this than a 44 build. (WJ brakes/steering conversion, manual hub kit)
The D30 housing can be fixed with a simple truss, as many here have done.

Uphill in reverse....Got me there Brett! :wave:

[BillR]

lets leave that http://www.pritchettcartoons.com/illustrations/worms.gif out of this good tech eh?

im going to be needing this thread during summer...

-Super Newb
Good point...sorry! :gag:

[HTeK]

All examples are true. My point is that if you're going to go to the work and sizeable expense of doing a front 44, and you end up with little or no increase in R&P strength AND you lose ground clearence at the same time (LP44 vs HP30)... :gag:
If the goal is just better brakes and hubs, there are cheaper ways to acomplish this than a 44 build. (WJ brakes/steering conversion, manual hub kit)
The D30 housing can be fixed with a simple truss, as many here have done.

Uphill in reverse....Got me there Brett! :wave:


Let me try to put the worms back in the can here. :laugh3:

I do agree that in the end, the HP44 is a better axle. The question is how much better? Based on my interaction with people here in the off-road community, this is a very personal question. For myself and BrettM, we concur that the benefits of the HP44 do not outweigh the cost among other factors. I do however realize that most would find that the HP44 is absolutly the only option to go with. My main beef is that the LP44 gets a pretty bad rap, i simply disagree.

And loss of ground clearance based on the LP will be negligable in many cases after the knuckles are turned. And actually I'm glad you brought this up bill, makes me think about the decisions I have made.

-jm

[shayzj]

Well I finally got the axle completed and installed a couple of weeks ago and have driven it a few times. Wanted to post some pics and get some opinions on alignment. It drives well but is darty on the highway. I figured the caster is too low so I took it in to be checked. Here is the printout.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/scan.jpg

I can lower the pinion a little and get it to 6 degrees if you think that will help the drivability.

Here are some installed pic with the stock waggy steering that I plan on staying with.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003353.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003351.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003350.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003359.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003357.jpg



Tell me what you think I completed it all by myself and am pretty happy so far

Shay

[ChuckD]

Well I finally got the axle completed and installed a couple of weeks ago and have driven it a few times. Wanted to post some pics and get some opinions on alignment. It drives well but is darty on the highway. I figured the caster is too low so I took it in to be checked. Here is the printout.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/scan.jpg

I can lower the pinion a little and get it to 6 degrees if you think that will help the drivability.

Here are some installed pic with the stock waggy steering that I plan on staying with.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003353.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003351.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003350.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003359.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v157/shayzj/IM003357.jpg



Tell me what you think I completed it all by myself and am pretty happy so far

Shay

Dude tha'ts one sweet XJ, where did you get that body kit?

[CRASH]

Well I finally got the axle completed and installed a couple of weeks ago and have driven it a few times. Wanted to post some pics and get some opinions on alignment. It drives well but is darty on the highway. I figured the caster is too low so I took it in to be checked. Here is the printout.

Shay

5-7 degrees is very nice for caster. Helps the return to center feel.

Your dartiness may also be related to your roll center, having the track bar in an OEM location and lowers your roll center and promotes body roll, which can "load" the steering.

You'd be much happier with a raised track bar and drag link (at least).

[BrettM]

5-7 degrees is very nice for caster. Helps the return to center feel.

Your dartiness may also be related to your roll center, having the track bar in an OEM location and lowers your roll center and promotes body roll, which can "load" the steering.

You'd be much happier with a raised track bar and drag link (at least).
yeah, I like 6 degrees on my D44 caster. but I think the bigger issue is the inverted T steering. I ran the stock Waggy steering on mine for a few months and it was terrible because it has a dead-spot in the center where it just rolls the tie-rod.

[Jes]

but I think the bigger issue is the inverted T steering. I ran the stock Waggy steering on mine for a few months and it was terrible because it has a dead-spot in the center where it just rolls the tie-rod.

There's nothing wrong with an inverted T as long as you're running hi steer. If you run hi steer you won't have that dead spot and the drag link won't roll the tie rod.

[BrettM]

yeah, there's nothing inherently wrong with an inverted T, it's just when the angle of the draglink is too high (30 deg?) it's pushing and pulling up and down on the tie-rod almost as much as side to side, causing the tie-rod to roll at the ends before actually steering. (I know you know that Jes, just clarifying for others)

[Jes]

Yea, I know.
It all falls into the fawked up angles category. ;)

[CRASH]

Yea, I know.
It all falls into the fawked up angles category. ;)


Admit it, you liked your old set-up better.

Helped to feel the rocks better.

[Jes]

Admit it, you liked your old set-up better.

Helped to feel the rocks better.

Funny thing is that that was only about 5.5"s of lift and it was horrable.
I can't believe some people around here go around telling people that it works "fine" when they have 6+"s of lift. :rolleyes:

[Paul S]

There's nothing wrong with an inverted T as long as you're running hi steer. If you run hi steer you won't have that dead spot and the drag link won't roll the tie rod.

The #1 reason that I dumped my 30 in favor of 44 junk, & I was running fairly nice WJ crossover steering.

Paul

[Jes]

The #1 reason that I dumped my 30 in favor of 44 junk, & I was running fairly nice WJ crossover steering.

Paul

Mainly because your tie rod was so low I presume?
That was a real PITA when you bent it on OL.

[Paul S]

Mainly because your tie rod was so low I presume?
That was a real PITA when you bent it on OL.

Because my tierod was so low & my draglink was so long. Not sure which one bothered me more.
& yeah, that was a PITA on O.L.

On the other hand, my new diff is taking some pretty hard hits that my old tierod would have prevented.

Paul

[Ramsey]

its a lot easier to beef up a cover though

[Jes]

:confused1

[Lincoln]

:confused1

Aren't you getting dizzy yet?

[Ramsey]

i cant take criticism :cry:

[Cox89XJ]

I've found a rear Waggy 44. What is a good price to offer? I've read they are approx. 2 inches narrower. Would it be okay to use wheel adapters from 6 lug to the standard 5 lug Cherokee pattern. When I bought my Jeep it's got Pacer 7 inch alloy wheels that I would like to keep. ----Bling---Bling. If I read correctly the spring perches will not have to be relocated.
Thanks guys.
Bruce

[hjeepxj]

I've found a rear Waggy 44. What is a good price to offer? I've read they are approx. 2 inches narrower. Would it be okay to use wheel adapters from 6 lug to the standard 5 lug Cherokee pattern. When I bought my Jeep it's got Pacer 7 inch alloy wheels that I would like to keep. ----Bling---Bling. If I read correctly the spring perches will not have to be relocated.
Thanks guys.
Bruce

How complete is the axle? Are the gears and diff stock? All needed info to get a price.

If its a bone stock waggy axle, in fairly good shape, dont offer more than 200$ for it. Allthough there is quite a few of those available for 100-150, so keep that in mind, don't be afraid to barter.

As far as the adapters and the perch width, Im not 100% sure, might want to search on that. I think the perches are slightly off if I remember correctly, but dont quote me on that.

[JEONLYEP]

How complete is the axle? Are the gears and diff stock? All needed info to get a price.

If its a bone stock waggy axle, in fairly good shape, dont offer more than 200$ for it. Allthough there is quite a few of those available for 100-150, so keep that in mind, don't be afraid to barter.

As far as the a------- and the p---- w-----, Im not 100% sure, might want to search on that. I think the p----- are slightly off if I remember correctly, but dont quote me on that.

:D

[gwilliamson]

why not just run full widths? i know guys that are running 44/60 running gear in there tj and xjs

www.alaska4x4network.com

i for one will be running the hp44 and a 9''

[nickangus]

make this sticky plz

[TRAILREADYXJ]

make this sticky plz
There is a link in the axle tech sticky

[ktm racer 419]

it says "waggy axles" Is there any reason the axles out of an 80's j-10 wouldn't be the same?

[Appalachianxj]

it says "waggy axles" Is there any reason the axles out of an 80's j-10 wouldn't be the same?


The rear is D60 is offset to the pass. side and the front D44 is closed knuckle. Correct me if I am wrong.

[jo-pal]

Could I use dana 44's out of an 87 waggy under a 98xj??

[rag]

i have found a complete 1989 grand waggy at a junkyard. dana44 front and rear.

i would much rather post here than start another topic.

-first of all i do not recall seeing an vaccum lines between the housing and the driver side knuckle

-i will be getting either an ARB, OX or a Detroit.

-4.88s or 5.13s superior gears

-tnt truss/brackets

-i have yet to call superior and alloyusa to see if they offer shafts that fit, but they are on my list too

-33tsl radials are sitting at work right now

-i do not have an issue with swapping over to a 6bolt pattern, but if i am able to get an xj44 rear i am at complete loss on how to convert it to 6bolt

-yard wants 400each axle, pulled. i know it sounds steep but options around here are starting to run out and fast. i am mainly interested in the front axle, the rear i may be able to source from a fellow member.

any thoughts? flames? suggestions? input.

mainly comments on the price and my plans for my possible build

thankyou

[Jeepin Jason]

I know AlloyUSA makes Waggy44 shafts. Pretty sure Superior does too, and maybe even Yukon.

If you can get the matching rear, I'd probably do it just so you've got a matching set.

You can change the rear to 6x5.5" using some wheel spacer/adapters but the ones I've seen are 2-piece and would make a stock width XJ rear axle wider than that Waggy front. Personally I'd either get the matching Waggy 44 rear, or convert both axles to 5x5.5" (what I did with a set of Waggy/XJ axles I ran years ago). You could change a rear XJ D44 to 6x5.5" with custom shafts, but you'd have to probably change a lot of the brakes to match, and IMHO it simply wouldn't be worth the cost and trouble vs just running the Waggy 44 rear. I believe that the Toyota rear axle in late model Tacomas is the same bolt pattern as the Waggy axles, and should be comparable width. Might be another option to look at.

If you run a Detroit in the front, you'll probably want to add a 2LO kit to your t'case -- I know I did when I had a Detroit front (and that's what I did too, after about 2 or 3 trips with the Detroit in the front). Both our Jeeps are now equipped with selectable lockers up front. ;) One OX, one ARB.

[MiNi Beast]

Alright, I'm running 37" MTR's on a D30 up front (all stock & open except gears) and a 8.8 LSD (stock) out back with 4.10, I know the gearing is not right, everything was set to run 33's, but got a good deal on the 37's and wanted to run 37's being I was moving from MI to AL. So now that I've got to deal with more rocks and mud and big hill climbs I need to do some upgrading. Already been out a few times wheeling the 37's and man I love it. Been through some gnarly stuff and climbed some wicked rocks and have not broken yet. Except just replaced both my hubs, but that was replaceing the origanal hubs from 1993 so it was time. I have a light foot and run in 4low, but I know I need to upgrade but to what is my question. I will be running my 37's but want to leave room to run up to 39's, Just in case. So what is my best option, been told 60's and been looking into it, but would I have to ditch my RK 3 link set up and run all new setup or what? a custom 4 link or run a leaf set up? I run the 3 link with 8.5" of lift now. So any help on the direction I should go whould be great. Or should I ditch the uni and go for a TJ set up with the 60's? Also I want to run Full size axles no cutting it down to stock size.

[Begster]

http://tntcustoms.com/page.asp?pageid=195
If you do this, you can keep the 3 link, as it will give you stock mounting locations. I would also think about getting a set of unibody stiffeners perhaps to help stiffen things up a bit.
As for the rear, you can just get some spring perches or u-bolt eliminators and go from there.

I would go D60's, especially if you are thinking of 39's.

[MiNi Beast]

http://tntcustoms.com/page.asp?pageid=195
If you do this, you can keep the 3 link, as it will give you stock mounting locations. I would also think about getting a set of unibody stiffeners perhaps to help stiffen things up a bit.
As for the rear, you can just get some spring perches or u-bolt eliminators and go from there.

I would go D60's, especially if you are thinking of 39's.


Uni body stiffeners I will be getting no matter what was next up grade with the cage. I only really want to run 37's but If i'm going to do it then thinking might as well do it where I can run bigger tires later on if want to. I run the 1.5" UBE on my 8.8 and love them so was going to run them on the rear if I did any type of axle swap, just not to sure on the whole front axle swap just wanting to be able to keep my 3 link setup being it has work great for me thus far. But thanks for the link to Treks never thought of checking back with them to see if they had something like that, I think that will work great.

well that will work then, but will I need to cut down the axle or can I keep it the full length?

[emr1101]

is there no info on the JK 44 on this thread?

[cal]

is there no info on the JK 44 on this thread?

Most of this thread predates the existance of the JK, and the JK doesn't really have a dana 44, per say.

The axle was originally tagged the "Dana 47", but Chrysler wanted to stick with the "Rubicons have Dana 44s" line.

Larger ring and pinion, 32 spline shafts in the rear. 64" WMS IIRC, but I could be wrong.

The front is 30 spline inners with 32 spline outers, bigger u-joints, bigger balljoints, full crossover steering like the WJ setup, and high pinion. There are 32 spline Chromo inner axles available if you wanted to pick up a second rear locker to go in the front. Early 2007 JK front 44's had a housing flaw, where the housing would split near the passenger UCA mount; but that appears to have been fixed.

A good swap for an XJ, if you want to run 5x5 wheels.

[CanMan]

is there no info on the JK 44 on this thread?

What about it? This thread was made WAY before the JK was around.

[JeepFreak21]

is there no info on the JK 44 on this thread?

It didn't exist when this thread was created. What info are you looking for?
Billy

[CanMan]

A good swap for an XJ, if you want to run 5x5 wheels.


And redo all the brackets.

[cal]

And redo all the brackets.

That is assumed with all dana 44 swaps (except for that TJ rubicon pile..) so I didnt bother to mention it.

[squirrel80]

For all your JK axle swap needs let me know. I have swapped them in, ran them hard and found out what breaks.

[cal]

For all your JK axle swap needs let me know. I have swapped them in, ran them hard and found out what breaks.

ok. what breaks?

[squirrel80]

So far the rear locker has failed. It sucks because there is no other locker available what so ever for the Rubicon Dana 44. I have to buy a new factory Mopar locker and hope it does not fail again. The electric magnet went weak and does not engage the locker all the way anymore. So you end up with an open diff all the time. I gues it could be worse and been something that left me stuck on the trail.

[Root Moose]

Is that magnet an easily serviceable item? Seems kinda lame to have to replace the entire differential and redo the gear pattern setup.

[cal]

So far the rear locker has failed. It sucks because there is no other locker available what so ever for the Rubicon Dana 44. I have to buy a new factory Mopar locker and hope it does not fail again. The electric magnet went weak and does not engage the locker all the way anymore. So you end up with an open diff all the time. I gues it could be worse and been something that left me stuck on the trail.

That's the first failure like that I have heard of; it maybe a fluke? I've seen a couple of front housings bend or break, though.

If I were going to start from scratch today, it would be on JK axles.

[CanMan]

That is assumed with all dana 44 swaps (except for that TJ rubicon pile..) so I didnt bother to mention it.

Some poeple think you can swap in the front and be just fine though. Not the case on the JK axle.

[squirrel80]

Is that magnet an easily serviceable item? Seems kinda lame to have to replace the entire differential and redo the gear pattern setup.

No you can't change the magnet. Or at least I can not get just the part. I have tried dealers, and the JK forum but no luck. Tell me about it, I hate that I have to swap the whole carrier, just to fix an issue with the magnet.

That's the first failure like that I have heard of; it maybe a fluke? I've seen a couple of front housings bend or break, though.

If I were going to start from scratch today, it would be on JK axles.

I have heard of the same problem before with a few guys on the JK forum but they are under warantee and get the diff swapped for free. I heard the same thing about the bending so that is why I trussed the diffs. All and all I am still very happy with the swap and I am still ahead of the game for a set of Dana 44s with lockers and 5.13s. I built mine from stock to this so I went right to 17" wheels with 5 on 5.

[razdrvr]

While we are on the JK44, anyone heard of Mopar releasing the JK44 w/ TJ mounts. I read a caption in a Magazine that made mention of it.

[Brad M.]

Have not heard of that from Mopar, but for those born with a silver spoon Dynatrac just released their Pro-Rock and Trail Ready JK Dana 44's. Not on the website yet that I can tell, but they're already advertising it in the magazines. I'm sure others (and hopefully less expensive) will follow suit.

[Root Moose]

While we are on the JK44, anyone heard of Mopar releasing the JK44 w/ TJ mounts. I read a caption in a Magazine that made mention of it.

I remember reading something about that but for the life of me can't remember where.

Mopar was supposed to (has?) release a JK specific Dana 60 with a 5 on 5.5" wheel stud pattern. Also there is a Mopar kit to convert the front to 5 on 5.5". Whether these things have turned into vapour products with the current economic environment I don't know.

[CRASH]

Wow, a blast from the past thread.

[Stihl029]

Hey squirrel I know how to get ahold of the part. your talking about the mushroom thingy right?
FOR ALL:
on a JK remove the carrier before you remove the mushroom headed switch. otherwise it is expensive to fix.

A buddy of mine did this to his gf's JK with less than 2000 miles on it. I think its had more time on jack stands than on wheels at this point. He had some issues to say the least during the lift and mods that went into it.

[squirrel80]

Hey squirrel I know how to get ahold of the part. your talking about the mushroom thingy right?
FOR ALL:
on a JK remove the carrier before you remove the mushroom headed switch. otherwise it is expensive to fix.

A buddy of mine did this to his gf's JK with less than 2000 miles on it. I think its had more time on jack stands than on wheels at this point. He had some issues to say the least during the lift and mods that went into it.


No that part is only for the indicator light. Mine had the electric magnet go weak and no longer will engage the locker. The part you are talking about if often not put in correctly after a regear, but will not affect the locker if it is taken out completely and plugged like mine is. Mine worked perfect for a few months of abuse before it just stopped working.