JY 9s all around?

im at that point in my build where i need (well lets be honest, i need a lot of things) to seriously look into axles before making an investment in them. a recent outing makes me question my intentions of building/buying built stock axles.

ive long had the idea of buying axles already built, and a buddy is planning to move to tons sometime in the near(ish?) future. D30/8.8, geared, locked, quality parts. but a recent outing has made me second guess the idea of running a D30. i smoked a 29 spline 8.25, an 8.25 spartan locker, and a front 30 shaft (my first real failure honestly) on an obstacle that i dont think i was overly abusive on. i know the stock shafts in the 30 are a liability, but i carry plenty of spares.... now the 8.25? i havent seen very many break... and a lot of people seem to believe it can lead a (relatively) happy life on 35s, even with stock shafts.

my limitations:
- 35s, i have brand new MTRs id rather not get rid of, and dont forsee the jeep ever going any bigger. not on this rig.
- 15" wheels, 5on5.5. i have a set sitting in the garage waiting for my "D34" swap
- conservative budget
- jeep needs to stay mobile (thus you see the appeal of buying bolt in axles)

im not particularly interested in tons, but dont even want to invest in chromo axles at this point. as far as front 44s go, my roommates cant seen to last even with all the bling parts. so my dreaming has come to fabbing 9s.

reasons for not wanting to wheel stock axles:
- ive driven a few rigs geared 4.88 now, and with the manual... i want a low ratio (or even better, a crawl box. haha)
- id like width
- in the next 5 years, i have places like harlan, wellsville, and moab on my radar. i dont want to go with any thoughts of the axles being a liability.

areas id like some input on:

- i know JY housings arent the greatest, a fab housing being ideal. but with the ability to fab, adding protection to the diff should make it should lead a happy life, correct?

- i feel i can address the super low pinion in the rear, but the front concerns me. with locking hubs, it shouldnt be an issue on the street, but will the driveline preset an issue on the trail? (other than being low slung)

- aside from investing in the diffs... most of the money will be spent on the front outers, and i need 5on5.5. now, the petty cash guys run WJ knuckles on their 44, their claim being that the D30 BJs are a better design. i have a set of WJ knuckles that ive machined to run ford half on spindles. this would satisfy my bolt pattern and rim size desire... is there any particular reason why i SHOULDNT run D30 Cs and WJ knuckles knowing im not going any larger?

- shafts and joints? (i guess im kind of answering my own question here)... im thinking that 44 stuff could be used to get me the width i want to compliment a rear 9. but it still limits me to the 760 joint. super joints are an option but i know very little about them.







so i guess what im really asking is, "is my front 9" a horrible idea?" i know ill be wheeling 35s. and the idea of dropping in stupid deep gears or high9s down the road is super appealing, more so (to me at least) than tons.

thoughts?

Honestly, I'm not sure why you're considering spending a bunch of time/money fabbing 9" stuff if you're only ever planning on 35s and don't plan on doing any high speed/racing.

I wheeled on essentially stock D44s with 35" MTZs for 2 years and only busted one front stock shaft, never even broke a Spicer 760 (key thing there being SPICER aka a GOOD u-joint).

I'd find some cheap junkyard waggy D44s (aka already the right width) and rebuild them with good quality Spicer stuff, and throw some chromos/disc brakes on the rear axle. You can easily get the rear axle in in a day, and take a day off of work or something and spend a Fri-Sun getting the front all in place.

That's my personal opinion. Our terrain is a bit different out here, but I wouldn't jump straight to fabbed 9s unless you just want another project.

outside of the rocks... we have dunes, snow, and hill climbs. i find myself finding the rev limiter more and more.

a buddy wheels a full tilt built D44 on 35s and honestly hasnt been able to keep it alive, most noteably, twisting the splines on an RCV. we wheel together often and i find myself taking bypasses because im being conservative. his rig is also manual, and while the 4.88s are nice... i want deeper. and the 9s would give me that option without issue of deep gears in a 44.

My friend ran 5.13s on a LP44 up front in his XJ on everything from 35s to 37s. Never busted a ring and pinion set.

He and I hit the rev limiter plenty and didn't have too many issues.

If you enjoy building stuff go for it. But you can certainly keep a D44 alive reasonably well on 35s.

Take it or leave it, my thinking is this
"conservative budget" and "fabbed 9s" don't' seem to go together very well.
Conservative budget + HP44 out of a Bronco (or narrow one from a pickup, whatever) + CTM joints, you are starting to get there. The Dana 30 is going to break shaft or R&P before CTM joint (most likely), the 44 shaft / gearset will move the fuse with CTMs out to the hub (unless you have beefy drive flanges)
If you don't want to do the 44, though, thinking it won't live: the Dana 60 is probably a cheaper option than the fabbed 9".
I'm only guessing here but I've got to think there is a reason the '60 is the more common swap - and it being more common, again I'm assuming, it's going to be cheaper.
Super joints all basically do the same thing. They replace the needle bearings with a bushing of some kind, allowing for a larger trunion (spelling?) diameter. This means two things: one, it's a lot stronger than the needle bearing joint. Two, it has a shorter service life in terms of mileage. If you run drive flanges & daily drive the thing, well, let your budget be the judge. If you run manual hubs you can get away with this just fine because the joints aren't being driven as you go down the road.
I think budget beef is the HP Dana 44 with lockout hubs (fuse) and super joints, though $500 for a pair of u joints isn't cheap.
Fabbed 9" housing is $700, no outers no gears... I'm sure the axle is awesome when you build it, but I just don't see it if you are talking 35s and a budget.

35s?

stahp. i blew tons of money on a polished to **** 44/60 setup. dont do that. here's what you do:

build a front 30 (now, now, stop shaking your head). 30s break fast for two reasons:
-ring gear deflection
-ujoints (mostly shock load, easier since you have 3 pedals)

its easy to prevent the first thing... truss the SHIT out of a HP30. top and bottom, weld to the housing, fit a good cover and FULL CASE LOCKER. the second thing is solved easy... RCVs. what? youll blow the ring gear you say? meh. i've seen RCVs in a 30 and they surprised me. maybe you'll blow a ring gear up once every 3-4 years if you are wheeling a lot and wheeling hard. that isnt really a lot of failures. RCVs also take care of the "oh no i blew a shaft and kept going so now my ball joints fell out" issue bc they come with tube seals. then, like you said, add WJ knuckles and some synergy or alloyusa ball joints.

for the rear. 8.8. again, FULL CASE LOCKER AND TRUSS IT backing plate to backing plate add the c-clip eliminator with alloy shafts and i doubt you'll be able to break it with a tired 4.0 driving the wheels.

run 4.56s in the axles, get a 4:1 tcase. stop trying to gear deeper for the trail by making your axles weaker when you romp on it. just add more tcase gear.

44s come with the same size ujoints as a 30, and they weigh a shit ton more. with this setup you'll be stronger from the outers out front and rear than my 44/60 was for half the cost and it will weight half as much.

XJLI said:

run 4.56s in the axles, get a 4:1 tcase. stop trying to gear deeper for the trail by making your axles weaker when you romp on it. just add more tcase gear

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read my mind a little here. doubler would be ideal.

FWIW, im not talking full blown fab 9 housings. im looking to use JY housings.

and by "conservative bundget," i dont mean low budget, i mean i dont need bling like reid Cs.

VAhasnoWAVES said:

read my mind a little here. double would be ideal.

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if you shop around right, you can build a D300/231 doubler for around the same price as a 4:1.

XJLI said:

build a front 30 (now, now, stop shaking your head).

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theres 2 major drawbacks to doing all that to the D30. 1. you've now spent just as much if not more than it would take to build a D44. 2. you still don't get hubs straight off the bat, and the gearing options suck

after searching far and wide for the perfect reasonable axle setup (9/9 609/9 609/60 44/9 60/14 HO72 waggy etc.) I decided it would absolutely have to be ford hp 44 and full width 8.8 on 35" tires. can be built for reasonably cheap, strong, not weigh as much as 1 tons, and still make the trails a challenge. but I ended up with big dumb 1 tons anyway :explosion

I'm in the same boat as all the guys who spent a lot of dollars making a nice D30 and it still broke. D30 is a great choice for 33 or 34" tires. but as soon as I stepped up to 35's it was only a matter of time
but hey, everyone's gotta start somewhere. but I'd definitely build a D30 before trying to mess with JY 9's front and back

35s are a weird tire size. you can make them live on stock axles, but you need to drive accordingly. they are also (IMHO) almost too small to warrant an axle swap unless you are really serious about wheeling. but if you are that serious about wheeling, you should be getting 37s. $1500 into a 30 goes a LOT farther than $1500 into a 44, unless you get a deal on a built one, especially if the 30 is almost part way there (gears, locker, already maintained by you, etc)

just speaking from experience. i parted my rig out over the last two months, best decision i ever made. i built much more truck than i needed.

dude, go on pirate, and dig around in the classifieds. you'll probably find a geared and locked ford hp44 for like 1000$ with lots of other goodies, possibly cheaper , and then cut off brackets and use what you want as far as brackets(I like Ruffstuff) . Do the same for the rear. Go with a 9 or 60 or a 8.8 and call it done. the rear 9 will be pretty cheap. Also, don't get set on a specific lug pattern, that is a bad constraint to set on yourself. When My hp44 blows up the R&P someday in the future, if ever, ill go to a jana 54 gear set.

XJLI said:

35s are a weird tire size. you can make them live on stock axles, but you need to drive accordingly. they are also (IMHO) almost too small to warrant an axle swap unless you are really serious about wheeling. but if you are that serious about wheeling, you should be getting 37s.

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my idea behind it would be that you at least have the option to go to 37's if you want. and if you don't like it you can drop back down to 35's. after my D30 experience my new motto is build axles that can handle handle a tire 2" taller than what you're running. my axles can handle 42's but I want to run 39's or 40's. but like you said it all depends on your driving style. I don't really like to rock "crawl" per say..

XJLI said:

if you shop around right, you can build a D300/231 doubler for around the same price as a 4:1.

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agreed. and ive been tig welding a lot lately. teaching myself. so aside from the intermediate shaft, i should be able to do it all myself.

i had the opportunity to pick up a doubler months ago. 231/300, shifters, right yokes, everything... litterally ready to bolt in and go. $500. if i had known what i was looking at then, id have swooped it up in two seconds.

blondejoncherokee said:

dude, go on pirate, and dig around in the classifieds. you'll probably find a geared and locked ford hp44 for like 1000$ with lots of other goodies, possibly cheaper , and then cut off brackets and use what you want as far as brackets(I like Ruffstuff) . Do the same for the rear. Go with a 9 or 60 or a 8.8 and call it done. the rear 9 will be pretty cheap. Also, don't get set on a specific lug pattern, that is a bad constraint to set on yourself. When My hp44 blows up the R&P someday in the future, if ever, ill go to a jana 54 gear set.

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thats an option, ive been keeping my eyes open, but havent really found anything that screams at me.









i had a 3/4 ton D44 at one time. 1/2" tubes, chevy flat top knuckles, blue torch truss. but the price of polishing it really wasnt appealing.

i called currie, they will cut 31 spline chromos at a reasonable price. a nodular or even high pinion 3rd and bigger shafts would be plug and play down the road...

i just cant believe how easy i snapped a 8.25. im almost considering building a 9 in the rear that i wont have issues with, and gearing a 30 in the front, with my locking hubs. at least that would limit the breakage to the front...

thoughts?

You can make a 30 survive... I ran a hp30 on 37 inch boggers for 2 years. I was careful and it limited who I could follow. That being said. This is a 3.55 gear set I removed from a XJ at the rally school the other day. 2 inch lift, 235/75r15 radial mud tires, open diffs and a auto trans... I know the setup was right on because I put bearings in it two weeks earlier. I wasn't there when it happened but our trails are only built to push a stock xj...




My opinion... I wouldn't put any money other than maintenance costs into either axle. Save up and get 60s and don't look back. you can run 15 inch wheels, easy to narrow, and you can gear as low as 7:17.

Here is a pic of one I narrowed a few years back.

pretty much.

go straight to tons. there is no reason to play in between. if you dont need tons, you dont need to swap axles. when you go to tons you have two options:

-do it cheap, have fun, scrap the XJ in a year or so.
-do it right, plate it, cage it, plate it some more, then have fun. as long as you arent barrel rolling the thing every weekend it should last a long time.

i've come to the realization that 33s on a XJ is perfect. bigger than that, you start weighing these options... and you have a few paths to cross to either make the XJ last or save money.

ya, thats the other option, go back down to 33s, and run a 4:1 in the case and just call it done.

The 14bolt I'm swapping into my wife's wj cost all of a 1/2" of ground clearance over the dana 44 it's replacing. Way more strength in stock form than she needs, beefy, and cheap. I will never run another semi float rear axle in any jeep. Benefits of full float are too plentiful, obvious, and cheap.

SkinnyRidgeMJ said:

You can make a 30 survive... I ran a hp30 on 37 inch boggers for 2 years. I was careful and it limited who I could follow. That being said. This is a 3.55 gear set I removed from a XJ at the rally school the other day. 2 inch lift, 235/75r15 radial mud tires, open diffs and a auto trans... I know the setup was right on because I put bearings in it two weeks earlier. I wasn't there when it happened but our trails are only built to push a stock xj...


My opinion... I wouldn't put any money other than maintenance costs into either axle. Save up and get 60s and don't look back. you can run 15 inch wheels, easy to narrow, and you can gear as low as 7:17.

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on 60s... apparently 5on5.5 is an options with SRW hubs?
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showpost.php?p=3123426&postcount=106

XJLI said:

i've come to the realization that 33s on a XJ is perfect. bigger than that, you start weighing these options... and you have a few paths to cross to either make the XJ last or save money.

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fair enough. and thats definitely the cross roads that im at.

zachandandy said:

The 14bolt I'm swapping into my wife's wj cost all of a 1/2" of ground clearance over the dana 44 it's replacing. Way more strength in stock form than she needs, beefy, and cheap. I will never run another semi float rear axle in any jeep. Benefits of full float are too plentiful, obvious, and cheap.

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the 14 bolt sounds like a lot of unsprung weight for what im after. its a bullet proof design. but if want i wanted warranted a FF rear 14 bolt, a steering one with D50 outers would be an option as well. they are dime a dozen around here, and ford KP60s might as well be gold.





i think that ive come to a bit of a compromise. i need a rear axle... and the width of a rear 9 is appealing. i think ill just throw adapters on the 30 for now and wait for catastrophic failure. this keeps me minimally invested. and ill be keeping my eyes open for a doubler. broken shafts are annoying, but the rest of the 30 seems to be happy.

Buy, blondjon's Hi9 setup. Shouldn't be too much to ship.

VAhasnoWAVES said:

on 60s... apparently 5on5.5 is an options with SRW hubs?
http://www.greatlakes4x4.com/showpost.php?p=3123426&postcount=106




fair enough. and thats definitely the cross roads that im at.



the 14 bolt sounds like a lot of unsprung weight for what im after. its a bullet proof design. but if want i wanted warranted a FF rear 14 bolt, a steering one with D50 outers would be an option as well. they are dime a dozen around here, and ford KP60s might as well be gold.



i think that ive come to a bit of a compromise. i need a rear axle... and the width of a rear 9 is appealing. i think ill just throw adapters on the 30 for now and wait for catastrophic failure. this keeps me minimally invested. and ill be keeping my eyes open for a doubler. broken shafts are annoying, but the rest of the 30 seems to be happy.

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zach and andy has a point.
My rig weighed like 4000+ pounds before a 14bolt, going up to like 4200 isn't a big deal. the shaved 9 rear already weighed at least 300 I would guess, the 14b I swapped has discs, it really isn't that heavy for the strength gains. Its stupid strong, and stupid cheap . Plus if you slap Dually Hubs on a SRW axle to get 63" WMS to WMS. You can get new rims for dirt cheap.

or you can buy my hi9 rear haha.