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What are the symptoms of a bad 02 Sensor?

This is real interesting to read. Not an expert on this at all, but reading got me to thinking. The system is designed to run a little rich (even when it runs lean) to feed enough fuel to keep the cat converter working (hot) so it must also get or allow excess O2 past the first O2 sensor. The second O2 sensor would confirm complete combustion and near zero O2, while the first sensor would read enough excess O2 to feed the Cat converter. Therefore the second O2 sensor would confirm the fuel to air ratio?
 
Ecomike said:
A bad TPS is still a high probabilty here. A bad spot or two on the carbon surface will send bad data to the computer making it hesitate and then speed up or rush with out throwing any OBD codes!!!! The TPS is a rapid wearing item from what I have read here!!!!

This is true. I had this problem on mine back in December. I would be driving down the highway, minding my own business and all of a sudden it would kick out of 4th and go into 3rd on it's own. After doing this for about 10 seconds, it would go back to 4th and everything would be fine. I didn't test with a multimeter, but I used an OBDII scanner that gave a live read out of the TPS and watched the reading change as it was flipping out one day and I wasn't moving my right foot. I also did not get any engine codes when this happened, which I thought at first was odd, untill I realized it was more of a mechanical problem with the TPS, rather than an electrical problem.
 
DaveKerwin said:
I would also look into the crankshaft position sensor (CPS)..

I second this. When it stumbles / hesitates if all your gages drop to zero like you switched the motor off I would look at replaceing the CPS first.
 
We are treading on shaky ground here. I'm going off what I've learned from years of the '90's and 00's Chrysler Mini-Vans and regular Cars.

Jeeps can be a bastardized system, some new chrysler, some old AMC, some Renault. As well, correct me if I'm wrong but most of the 80's Jeeps were Renix systems from Renault (French). And terms, techniques and implementation can be very different, especially between countries.

From what I understand, the "designed to run a little rich" depends on interpretation. Ideally, the most efficient would be to run even leaner than 14.7:1 at cruise and low load, but that would require a very expensive Wide-Band O2 sensor and also create a lot more NOx emmisssions. SO, in the U.S. regulations and manufacturer costs all lean toward running the stoichiometric 14.7:1 even though it produces lower mileage. So you can argue that American Cars run a little richer than other countries, but they are shooting for the 14.7:1 and hitting it accurately, so I, and most, would NOT say they are "designed to run a little rich" most of the time. Thats most of the time, remember the engine computer has an Open Loop mode.

Open Loop, the O2 sensor provides no Feedback, because the motor is in a mode where it needs a richer than 14.7:1 air fuel ratio (Warm-Up or WOT) or the O2 sensor is not warmed up yet and thus can't provide a feedback loop. In those cases, the engine computer is purely working off stored tables for how much is needed per rpm,air temp/press, engine temp, etc. The table is pre-set by the manufacturer, it was experimentally derived in a lab with a test engine. Since the system is adaptive, and no 2 engines are exactly alike, especially after they start to wear, air filter starts to get dirty, they are fitted with an aftermarket muffler, etc. The Engine computer can infer these difference from when its operating in closed loop mode with the O2 sensor. i.e. the engine computer gives it the amount of fuel called for in the preset table, the O2 sensor provides feedback that the preset table is causing lean condition, the engine computer adjust fuel to get back to 14.7:1 and then measures the difference and stores a corrective factor in another table. The table of corrective factors is also then used to when the computer is open loop mode, to compensate for changes in the engine. If you reset your PCM, the corrective table is in volatile memory, so it gets dumped. Then your engine computer has to start filling in a blank corrective factors table, and until it gets it filled in with good data, People will call this the "Learn Mode" while the table is filled, until its filled in with good data the A/F ratio will tend to be off a little more than desired, especially in open loop mode.

BUT, when in Open Loop, there is no feedback as to what the actual A/F ratio is at the moment. The engine computer can only make its best guess off what the parameters are, the amount of fuel it comes up will hopefully create the desired A/F ratio. Now, which is safer for a motor, going lean or rich? Going way lean, even for a few seconds can cause serious engine damage, especially at WOT. Going to rich, may create less than optimal power or emmissions, but you have to spend a very long time at extremely rich conditions to get the less damaging effects of deposits on valves, piston tops, exhaust, etc. So, when in doubt, biasing toward Rich is safer than lean, and when your in open loop mode, you are in doubt of what your actual A/F ratio is. BECAUSE OF THIS, IN OPEN LOOP MODE, MOST ENGINE COMPUTERS TEND TO RUN RICH. The Open Loop Mode is a minority of the time, Closed Loop is where your engine computer operates at 98% of the time. So its only fair to say, the system is designed to run a little rich in the open loop mode, where the computer is guessing at the A/F ratio, because running a little rich is safer for the motor than running a little lean.

Running Rich to get the Catalytic Converter to work right?? I've never heard that, don't know for sure. I was always under the impression that running stoichiometric was the best for the CAT, the amount of emissions being forced into the CAT determined how hot it ran. I.e. more chemical reactions, the hotter it ran, so more emissions would create more chemical reactions and thsu more heat. Running stoichiometric usually gets the best balance of emissions. Running to lean will create temp/press spikes in the combustion chamber, which creates NOx (also creates detonation and engine damage). Running to rich creates unburnt hyrdrocarbons and CO. The CAT does have to reach a certain temp to get the most effect, some cars do have heated CAT's to do this. But, I "think" the emissions will drive up the temp of the CAT to where it needs to be, its just a matter of how much emissions get by the CAT after start up, until it gets it temp driven up, determines extra measures to heat it up, once the CAT is warmed up, no additional measure are necessary to keep it at proper temp.

Ecomike, your description of how two O2 sensors work together sounds like it could work. BUT, the problem is, running rich results in very little oxygen in the exhaust. Thats why running rich is so bad for a CAT, there isn't enough left over oxygen to complete all those chemical reactions.

Perhaps some motors are less efficient design and don't have complete combustion? That may result in a rich mixture with excess oxygen? In that case, your 2 O2 sensors working together might be a good system to control the engine.

This is why I say we are on shaky ground, some of us may be talking about what we've learned from Renix systems and some of us are talking about what we've learned from Chrysler system on their more modern engine designs. We may all be right, just talking about different implementations used on Jeeps over the years.

There are some people that still swear that the downstream O2 sensor on the modern Chrysler systems is used for some adaptive information and it is NOT purely just to check the CAT. BUT, there is no references for this, as well, there are observations and basic logic from what is know that disputes that. Most of the detailed description of how the system works is proprietary, so I've learned more from discussions on forums than from any official document I've ever found on the system.
 
CODevilDog said:
I second this. When it stumbles / hesitates if all your gages drop to zero like you switched the motor off I would look at replaceing the CPS first.


99XJSPORT06 said:
Originally Posted by Ecomike
A bad TPS is still a high probabilty here. A bad spot or two on the carbon surface will send bad data to the computer making it hesitate and then speed up or rush with out throwing any OBD codes!!!! The TPS is a rapid wearing item from what I have read here!!!!

This is true. I had this problem on mine back in December.
Guys, we should be more systematic here, we throwing a lot of different things at him, from our experiences and telling him to take a lot of shots in the dark. This can get expensive, replacing one sensor after another.

1st - A '94 Jeep should read out fault codes with the Key On-Off-On-Off-On method. Find if there are fault codes, if there are, then likely they are the root cause of the problem. Correct those fault codes. (But this is NOT a garuantee)

2nd - Engine Tune-Up if you haven't done one in a while, these symptoms also come from an engine that needs a tune-up, or periodic replacement of consumable maintenance items, if you will (since most 90's and later vehicles actually "Tune" themselves). Ignition, filters, PCV, cleaning the throttle body and its idle air circuit, some combustion chamber cleaner, etc. This could solve the problem, if NOT, you've knocked out a tune up you needed anyway.

3rd - TPS, since you can test this easily to determine if its good or bad, I would do this next, or even 1st or 2nd. You just need a cheap multi-meter, you can find them for $18 at Walmart and once you have one you won't regret it, you use it many times in the future.

4th - CPS sensor, I don't know how to test this, perhaps there is a test, but there are lots accounts of how it fails intermittently and will pass a test but still be bad, etc. It really pick-ups a signal and passes it to the PCM, you have to constantly monitor the signal and find where it passes a bad signal that the PCM doesn't recognize as bad. How do you do that? An oscilloscope mounted on the dash? I'd just take the chance and get a new CPS at this point.
 
My direct experience with Renix XJ's, OBD1 Ford/Mercury's, and extensively with OBD1 GM's convinces me to through in my support to Rick Anderson's position.
Additionally, I've READ (in more than one place) that the CAT needs a slightly varying fuel mixture to operate correctly; consequently, the need for the ECM to constantly drive the mixture rich, then lean, based on the feedback from the O2 sensor (only when in Closed Loop). As I understand it, running rich causes the CAT to heat up, which for a short period of time is beneficial to doing its job, but if left to run hot continuously will destroy it! A "lazy" O2 sensor will slow the switching time down, resulting in poor gas mileage, and higher emissions; IE: failed emissions test, but won't result in a "code" for OBD1--don't know about OBD2.
As an aside, GM has EPROMs that are intended to be compatable with leaded gasoline. Engines configured to use leaded fuel do not use an O2 sensor, and depend on set fuel tables to control fuel mixtures under all conditions. These engines never operate in "closed loop". By the way, these EPROMs are NOT street-legal, but are available (I have one for a '94-'95 5.7L Chevy).
 
Thanks all, I appreciate all the feedback. I have tried out the fault code method by turning the key on/off and it didnt spit out any codes,which re-affirms what the ODB1 scanner told me yesterday. I am going to go pick-up a multi-meter (probably this weekend)and check the TPS. I wil also do the tune-up plugs, wires, cap, and attempt to clean the throttle body(is this fairly easy to do? I wanna be able to put it back together correctly) I also want to say that I drove the XJ for about an hour yesterday and it didnt hesitate once. Again, thanks everyone, all this info has been really helpful.
 
Tune-Up or Cleaning the TB? Tune up just replace the parts as they come off. Its easy to get the spark plug wires mixed up, so drawing yourself a diagram or if you have a digital camera, take a picture to refer back to can help.

Cleaning the TB is easy, I just take the intake tube off the inlet, spray in the Carb/TB Cleaner and scrub it with an old toothbrush and rag. Turn the throttle lever with your hand to open up the butterfly and spray and clean with the butterfly open. Then run the car and spray the cleaner into the TB, especially the opening just above the butterfly that is the idle air circuit, the cleaner will get sucked into the idle air opening to clean the valve and passages in there. Be ready to bip the throttle lever with your hand as you do this, because the motor will want to stall as you spray the cleaner into the idle air passage.

I've seen high mileage cars with worn out ignition that were hard to start, stalled, hesitated and ran rough at idle, like the motor was an old junker. A set of fresh spark plugs, wires and cap/rotor and the motor ran like new all the problems gone.

Here a good test of the ignition to see if its parts are totally worn out. In the dark, open the hood and look at the spark plug wires while someone starts the motor. If you see sparks jumping from the spark plug wires during cranking and starting up, the spark plug wires are absolutely totally shot. They can still be in need of replacement even if there are no sparks. You can check their resistance, BUT, if your having these sorts of problems and you haven't done a tune-up in 60k miles, then you need a tune-up and doing it now can't hurt, in fact it might fix the problem.
 
I have a '88 MJ, yeah I know this is a XJ forum, I have one of those too. My TPS is wore out in the mid-range of 1/3 to 2/3. It operates fine at low throttle position, and high position, but doesn't perform well at high-way speeds. I drilled a micro hole in the plastic housing, sprayed some deoxider into it, which helped a little. I have dealt with it for 2 years,...I'm too cheap to spend $80 for a vehicle I paid $800 for, that's 10% of the total vehicle cost!!
 
Rick Anderson said:
Guys, we should be more systematic here, we throwing a lot of different things at him, from our experiences and telling him to take a lot of shots in the dark. This can get expensive, replacing one sensor after another.

I couldn't agree with you more. However, the original poster only gave symptoms of hesitation at random speeds. Hesitation, especially at random speeds and random conditions could be any number of possible causes, ranging from o2 sensors, TPS's, CPS's, etc etc. It's important to list all the possible causes, and how to go about checking them....not just to say "it could be this, replace it now." It's also worth posting if you've had similar issues as what is being described, and your solution to the fix. Who knows, if you're having/had the same problems, you might be able to put it in better words than the original poster and help everybody else out in getting to a solution.

The point i'm getting at here is, the more information that is given to us, the more we can try to pin point it down to a specific problem.
 
When I said "designed to run a little rich" that may have been a poor choice of words, but there is no point in having a cat converter if there is no unburned fuel to feed the cat. So perhaps it is just unburned fuel due to incomplete combustion at the stoichiometric ratio that feeds the cat? In that case the second O2 sensor would be there trying to confirm a drop in O2 levels across the CAT as well as to confirm a trace of residual O2 to ensure there was enough O2 to complete combustion with out making CO, instead of CO2.

I had a 1976 Chrysler lean burn (last year model with out a cat) that ran lean with a computer control and carb (not Fuel injected) and it did not need a cat to meet emissions standards, but they ran too hot and Chrysler abonded the design!
 
tallbluexj said:
I have a '88 MJ, yeah I know this is a XJ forum, I have one of those too. My TPS is wore out in the mid-range of 1/3 to 2/3. It operates fine at low throttle position, and high position, but doesn't perform well at high-way speeds. I drilled a micro hole in the plastic housing, sprayed some deoxider into it, which helped a little. I have dealt with it for 2 years,...I'm too cheap to spend $80 for a vehicle I paid $800 for, that's 10% of the total vehicle cost!!

I'm a duct tape guy myself, but for a part as important as the TPS to performance I would (did) buy a new one, no junk yard dogs or duct tape or WD40 for this kid when it comes to something like the TPS.

I look at this way! Spend the $80 on the TPS, then You would have an $880 Jeep!!!! :)

$880/2 = $440 or about the cost a new car note for 2 months!!!!LOL!:) Then just cry :bawl:all the way to the bank for the third and following months, or throw a party1: the third month!
 
For those who run into this thread in the future looking for a way to test their O2 sensor here is the procedure.

There are three tests. The first is to test the large wire (mine is orange, 87 Renix generation, 4.0) that carries power to the sensor heater. The O2 sensor will not work if the internal heater is not getting power, or if the heater is burned out. With power off, multi meter on the lowest ohms scale it should read less than 10 ohms to ground (1 ohm is a sign the heater is shorted to ground and over 50 ohms is a good sign it has failed or that there is a ground problem). Verify the ground spot you choose for the test to be good by testing from there to the battery negative terminal, a good ground should read 1 ohm or less. If the heater is bad the O2 sensor is bad.

Next, start the engine, then switch to the 12 volt DC voltage scale (or about that voltage scale, go higher not lower to protect the meter in case you get a battery volatge hit) on the voltage range on the multi meter, then test the O2 heater wire with the red + probe, and then the Black - probe to ground. You should see some voltage. Mine reads 3 volts, but the voltage may be different for newer (91 and up) jeeps with the newer computers. If there is no voltage then there is either a bad O2 sensor/heater "power relay", bad wiring somewhere along the path to the O2 Power Relay or O2 sensor, or the computer is not getting power to the O2 heater power relay or the power to the relay may not be getting power from the battery on the input side of the which leads back to fuses, ignition switch, battery etc. (still a wiring fault!).

Third, using the 1 volt DC voltage scale check the voltage between the remaining two wires (see note 1) going to the O2 sensor while the engine is running. One should be a ground and the other should be producing a variable positive DC voltage between 0 and 1 volt. If your meter moves to the left (analog meters) or reads negative, then you have the test leads backwards on the two wires.

The voltage should oscilate back and forth crossing the 0.50 Volt mark on the meter. If it does not oscilate, if it sits at a fixed voltage or does not go above and below the 0.50 volt mark about once a second during the tests then the O2 sensor is probably bad.

It will on occasion, and during acceleration and deceleration wander and stay above or below the 0.50 volt mark for a few a seconds, this is OK. At a steady warmed up idle, if the swing runs between 0.35 and 0.65 volts it is working prety well, if it runs between 0.1 and 0.9 volts the computer is having trouble balancing the Air/Fuel ratio. If it stays above or below the 0.5 volt mark it could still be a vacuum or exhaust leak or ignition / fuel problem and not the O2 sensor, so be sure there are no exhaust or vacuum leaks or ignition or fuel, fuel injector problems before replacing the O2 sensor.

From what I have read a bad engine valve, fuel injector, plug, plug wire...etc, could also cause the O2 sensor to test as being bad, so once again be sure the engine, ignition, fuel injectors and vacuum lines are all in good working shape before blaming the O2 sensor. In a way, the O2 sensor output voltage oscilation test (0 to 1 volt test #3) can be used as an extra test of these other components since a vaccum or exhaust leak (between the O2 sensor and the block) or a bad fuel injector, or a funky ignition system (anything that lets fuel slip through unignited on a sometimes firing cylinder) can be used to test or verify other tests of the entire fuel-ignition computer-engine system.

If the voltage stays below 0.5 volts it means the engine is running lean (if the O2 sensor is working it is running lean!), or has excess air (maybe a vacuum or exhaust leak!).

If the voltage stays above 0.5 volts it may mean the engine is running rich (if the O2 sensor is working it is running rich), which could mean a leaking injector or a poor intermitent ignition.

Also,

Note 1: My Haynes manual shows four wires on the O2 sensor models after 1990 (versus the older three wire sensor on pre 91 jeeps) with one wire being a real direct ground and the second wire being a computer reference ground for all the system sensors! So there should be two good ground wires going to the sensor on the 91 and newer models! That gives you a fourth thing to check on the newer models. Make sure both grounds are good at the O2 sensor!
 
By the way, I have gotten the hesitation issue resolved. It turned out to be plugs , wires, cap, and rotor were toast. Replaced them, and it runs like new...Thanks for all the help so far!
 
Ecomike said:
For those who run into this thread in the future looking for a way to test their O2 sensor here is the procedure.

There are three tests. The first is to test the large wire (mine is orange, 87 Renix generation, 4.0) that carries power to the sensor heater. The O2 sensor will not work if the internal heater is not getting power, or if the heater is burned out. With power off, multi meter on the lowest ohms scale it should read less than 10 ohms to ground (1 ohm is a sign the heater is shorted to ground and over 50 ohms is a good sign it has failed or that there is a ground problem). Verify the ground spot you choose for the test to be good by testing from there to the battery negative terminal, a good ground should read 1 ohm or less. If the heater is bad the O2 sensor is bad.

Next, start the engine, then switch to the 12 volt DC voltage scale (or about that voltage scale, go higher not lower to protect the meter in case you get a battery volatge hit) on the voltage range on the multi meter, then test the O2 heater wire with the red + probe, and then the Black - probe to ground. You should see some voltage. Mine reads 3 volts, but the voltage may be different for newer (91 and up) jeeps with the newer computers. If there is no voltage then there is either a bad O2 sensor/heater "power relay", bad wiring somewhere along the path to the O2 Power Relay or O2 sensor, or the computer is not getting power to the O2 heater power relay or the power to the relay may not be getting power from the battery on the input side of the which leads back to fuses, ignition switch, battery etc. (still a wiring fault!).

Third, using the 1 volt DC voltage scale check the voltage between the remaining two wires (see note 1) going to the O2 sensor while the engine is running. One should be a ground and the other should be producing a variable positive DC voltage between 0 and 1 volt. If your meter moves to the left (analog meters) or reads negative, then you have the test leads backwards on the two wires.

The voltage should oscilate back and forth crossing the 0.50 Volt mark on the meter. If it does not oscilate, if it sits at a fixed voltage or does not go above and below the 0.50 volt mark about once a second during the tests then the O2 sensor is probably bad.

It will on occasion, and during acceleration and deceleration wander and stay above or below the 0.50 volt mark for a few a seconds, this is OK. At a steady warmed up idle, if the swing runs between 0.35 and 0.65 volts it is working prety well, if it runs between 0.1 and 0.9 volts the computer is having trouble balancing the Air/Fuel ratio. If it stays above or below the 0.5 volt mark it could still be a vacuum or exhaust leak or ignition / fuel problem and not the O2 sensor, so be sure there are no exhaust or vacuum leaks or ignition or fuel, fuel injector problems before replacing the O2 sensor.

From what I have read a bad engine valve, fuel injector, plug, plug wire...etc, could also cause the O2 sensor to test as being bad, so once again be sure the engine, ignition, fuel injectors and vacuum lines are all in good working shape before blaming the O2 sensor. In a way, the O2 sensor output voltage oscilation test (0 to 1 volt test #3) can be used as an extra test of these other components since a vaccum or exhaust leak (between the O2 sensor and the block) or a bad fuel injector, or a funky ignition system (anything that lets fuel slip through unignited on a sometimes firing cylinder) can be used to test or verify other tests of the entire fuel-ignition computer-engine system.

If the voltage stays below 0.5 volts it means the engine is running lean (if the O2 sensor is working it is running lean!), or has excess air (maybe a vacuum or exhaust leak!).

If the voltage stays above 0.5 volts it may mean the engine is running rich (if the O2 sensor is working it is running rich), which could mean a leaking injector or a poor intermitent ignition.

Also,

Note 1: My Haynes manual shows four wires on the O2 sensor models after 1990 (versus the older three wire sensor on pre 91 jeeps) with one wire being a real direct ground and the second wire being a computer reference ground for all the system sensors! So there should be two good ground wires going to the sensor on the 91 and newer models! That gives you a fourth thing to check on the newer models. Make sure both grounds are good at the O2 sensor!

I made some mistakes above. First the heater input voltage appears to be 12 volts, it is not 3 volts on mine after all. I had my volt meter set up with the probes in the 1KV spots and got the wrong voltage readings on my Renix (1987) set up. Mine, 1987 Renix is 12 volts to the heater. The other mistake is that the Renix computers (1984?-1990) supplies 5 volts to the O2 sensor, where as the newer, 1991 and up sensors reportedly produce a 0 to 1 volt signal by themselves at operating temperature.

The Renix system produces a variable signal when all hooked up that runs from about 1 volt to about 4 volts when operating properly. It oscilates back and forth just like the newer ones except the Renix Sweet spot is 2.5 volts while the sweet spot for the newer jeeps is 0.5 volts.

The testing is the same for both, except that you can check the Renix when the O2 sensor is disconected for a 5 volt signal on one of the 2 smaller black wires to ground, and the proper operating signal volatge for the Renix years is 1 to 4 volts, and for the 1991 and newer modles it is aproximately 0.3 to 0.7 volts. Both should oscillate across the mid point about once every second, the mid point being 0.5 volts for 1991 and newer models, and it is 2.5 volts for 1990 and older.
 
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