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Vey puzzling overheating issue, not the usual suspects!

OK I ran the head gasket leak test, blue fluid that turns yellow if the head gasket is leaking. It is a 2 minute aspiration bubbler test. I ran it for 15 minutes, cold, then hot, and at idle and at 3000 rpm, never turned blue (but I nearly did, its 100 F outside here, and about 120 F under the bloody hood).

There is NO head gasket leak.:clap: :party:

With no AC, after 20 minutes of block tests, resealed the coolant system Caped the 8Mud football), ran it for another 10 minutes, ambient at 100 F, and it peaked at 189 F at T-Stat housing and 159 F and radiator exit, so the newest, new clutch is helping just a bit, maybe 3- 5 F cooler, but this was in park, not in drive and not in stop and go traffic after a long drive, so I would expect it to have gone to about 200/170 F with no AC based on prior tests.

So now for the AC operating pressure data.

It was 120 F inside the car, initial conditions, 100 F outside, about 40 % RH (Max- we are on an extreme dry weather no burn alert, no rain in about 7 weeks, hitting 100 year record highs here this week, may be closer to 30% RH at 100 F).

With AC fan on medium, system on Max AC, I got 44/290 PSI in the first minute at idle. This is R-134a, retrofit in an R-12 designed system.

Switched to high fan (Max AC), at idle, got 48/295

Let run a few minutes, then got 30/320 peak at about 2000 RPM (apx), still on High fan-Max AC.

Coolant temps rose to 170/215 F (radiator outlet/T-Stat engine outlet), 5 minutes later it was up to 188/222 F at idle, in park.

5 minutes later it was 45/290 AC pressure (PSIG), inside temp of jeep had dropped from about 120 F to about 85 F.

5 minutes later, had 35/275 AC pressure, about 75 F average inside the jeep (this Jeep needs window tint!!!!)

It got down to 30/240 AC pressure, at 2000 rpm (apx), and 40/275 AC pressure at idle with coolant at 192/235 F at a near equilibrium point, with it holding an average of about 75 F inside the jeep. S

Sunny day, no clouds blocking the sun.

OH, and the hood is not insulated! I checked the exterior parked jeep (engine off) hood temp at 2 pm yesterday and it was 158 F according my IR gauge. Just about right for frying eggs. After a little drive it was still about 160 F!
 
Thanks, but in this case my problems do show up with tranny in park.

8Mud,

What about the AC issue, question I have raised. I know you have a lot more AC experience than I do.

I did have some pinging a month or so ago, but it was Valero gas, stopped when I went back to Citgo gas. Also I ran some FI cleaner through it the last tank. No more pinging at all.

What do you mean by checking plugs hot versus cold? Why, what do you see different?

You mentioned a litmus test, I heard that once before, does the excess CO2 in exhaust turn the coolant acidic, carbonic acid?

How much does your coolant bottle (football) liquid level change from cold to hot?

Mine stays the same, cold to cold, morning to morning. Maybe changes a little hot to cold, 1/2" at most. and hard to view or use unless you are on level ground each time, but never enough to alarm me like a leaking cap does when it boils over.:D

I have good flow through the football. I have no heater valve, it was not used in 87.

Right now, turning my AC seems to be the trigger, but I have hot wired the e-fan to keep it cool with AC off.

I sure don't know 134a like I do R 12 (I have the sliding scale coolant pressure/temperature curves etched in my mind for R12). The best way is to check low pressure at 70F-80F (in the morning) with all the doors open and the fan on high, compare your low side number to a known good system (I haven't done enough 134A systems to know the preferred number, likely 30-35 PSI, just a guess) (it's right around 25 PSI for R 12). Other than that, by weight , is the best method. The pressures are constantly changing, hard to get a good fill or constant value with a pressure gage.
I've never had any pinging in either of my Renix's (the 87 or the 88), in 20 some years. European gas is notoriously low octane. Even with a malfunctioning EGR valve or the EGR disconnected. Coolant soaked knock sensor?
Though I do seem to remember a very little valve rattle once when my O2 sensor was acting up, it was causing way more trouble than pinging. Loss of top end and mid RPM range bucking.
I was taught to get a true plug reading, you have to pull them after a run up the interstate with as little idling as possible before you get the plug out of there and check the color ( I generally keep the RPM's up and coast into a rest stop). It's called a true reading and may be an old wives tale, but something I typically do if there is any sign of odd plug color. Not the most pleasant thing to do, you need gloves. I usually have an extra plug available also, I've broken more than a few trying not to get burnt or blistered pulling the plugs on a hot motor. Can be helpful finding very small vacuum leaks, the plugs closest to the leak are often much lighter than those away from the leak. Also comparing plug color to the compressive for that cylinder can be helpful, you expect the plugs out of the higher compression cylinders to be a little lighter. Check the piston top, I've tracked down vacuum leaks that way. A significant clean (shinny) spot is unnatural, especially after an extended idle.
The auto parts store near here offered a litmus (type) paper test for coolant. It was supposed to change color if exhaust gases were present. It may work, but maybe the batch I used was old, I could smell the exhaust gas in the coolant, the test stripes never changed color.
My surge tank level rarely changes much, sometimes about a quarter of a tank in level from cool to hot. I typically only fill to around half, to allow for expansion. But it has expanded to above 3/4 on numerous occasions when I sit and idle for extended periods above 80F ambient and
high humidity. Though it has been years since I've had a significant spew.
I do game census and use my XJ, a lot of time spent at idle looking through binoculars. Game seldom pays attention to automobiles, I creep around an area with the XJ and do my counts.
If you can idle for an hour on a hot day without it going above 240. I'd call it good. Mine will typically start creeping up after 15 minutes of idle (two row radiator, strong fan clutch) and I'll switch on my aux fan. It typically lowers my temperature quick, if not I rev to 2000 RPM for a minute and the temperature gage needle falls.
Have you inspected the radiator with a flashlight? Pollen and dust gets in there and can cause partial air flow blockages. I've pulled significant amounts of pollen and fuzzies from between the A/C condenser and the radiator on numerous occasions.
From the sound of it you may have numerous things going on that add up. Possible restricted air flow. Hard to have significant air flow blockage (that you may not notice) in a single row, except at the A/C condenser. I got in the habit of shinning a flashlight from the back side of the radiator toward the front and following the light with my eyes in multi row heat exchangers, you'd be surprised how much dust, pollen and other junk can get caught in there.
I've had little trouble with my radiators plugging with deposits internally since I've been using distilled water to fill. Cheep coolant may cause deposits internally, I'd guess.
I'm about out of ideas Bro, keep us posted.
With the A/C on, the aux fan comes on and the pulse width for the injectors increases. Higher idle and slightly rich. Unplug your magnetic clutch connector and turn the A/C on and see what happens. I'm not exactly sure if it's possible to interrupt the "A/C on" signal to the ECU and still have the aux fan come on? I've occasionally wondered what the results would be if the diode failed, separating the normal aux fan system from the A/C aux fan on signal?
 
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I'm sure you checked it already, as 8Mud suggested, but I had issues with fuzzies on my radiator between the condenser and radiator. I had cleaned the condenser matrix, but when I opened things up finally after fan testing, overheating, etc., to actually see the face of the radiator, I almost shit. It was a happy shit, as I realized immeditatly that this was a simple fix. No more summer overheating now for two years. I had been getting ready to order a new radiator.
 
Update, I have installed the 97 ZK fan clutch upgrade. It helped some. Does work much better, but not good enough yet.

I have ordered a CSF, copper brass, all metal 3 row rad, a 97 parallel flow AC condenser for the R-134a I am running now, and a filler neck with radiator cap for the upper radiator hose. The filler neck is going oin today. Will also be inspecting for exhaust leaks blowing on the engine block or head, and will use the new filler neck to use a radiator pressure tester rig.

This is an 87, Renix rig, closed system. Soon to be an open/closed hybrid Renix coolant system!:D
 
Found some interesting reading on RedLine water wetter. Looks to me like its best use is in straight water (see the test results below), or with 50/50 EGW mix to reduce hot spot boiling and bubble formation. It lowers surface tension (basically a surfactant) which helps gas bubbles break away from the metal surface faster, thus allowing liquid back to the hot spot sooner. Result you have less gas forming in the head near exhaust valves.

Sounds like a good additive for those of us fitting peak temperatures this summer.


http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/redline-waterwetter®-review/
 
From what I have been reading, it looks to me like a 75% water (DI water) and 25% antifreeze (ethylene glycol....stuff) plus Redline Water Wetter with a good 18 lb cap will be better for us in the summer than a 50/50 antifreeze water mix.

One of the citations below indicates that with a 15 lb cap, we only get an extra 10 F of boil over protection from a 50/50 glycol/water mix versus DI water alone, or 265 F versus 255 F, while water has 50% more thermal conductivity than a 50/50 mix.

I also see that Copper has 2.5 times the thermal conductivity of aluminum.
I just may cut my 50/50 mix to 75/25 water/antifreeze for the hot summers down here, and try adding water wetter as well, then move to 24 month maintenance, replacement schedule for my coolant. Depends on how well the new CFS radiator and new AC condenser work for me. But for those who are running out of things to try, you might consider going to 75/25 mix with water wetter.
 
Re: Very puzzling overheating issue, not the usual suspects!

In the past 4 years, it has always run cooler with the AC on than with it off. The reason being that the when the AC compressor clutch engages it also turns on the electric fan (back up to the primary mechanical fluid clutch drive fan). The electric fan is working, but when I turn on the AC now the cooling system is getting hotter, where as in the past it use to always run cooler with the AC on.
Sounds like radiator clogged but it could also be the electric fan motor wearing down. My '85 Cadillac needs both of the fan motors replaced.

I don't know about RENIX design but your 160* thermostat is probably making the engine run rich. On the HO that will will make the computer dump fuel to try and get the engine up to operating temp.

I would avoid the water wetter and different caps and whatnot until you have the actual problem under control.
 
Re: Very puzzling overheating issue, not the usual suspects!

Sounds like radiator clogged but it could also be the electric fan motor wearing down. My '85 Cadillac needs both of the fan motors replaced.

I don't know about RENIX design but your 160* thermostat is probably making the engine run rich. On the HO that will will make the computer dump fuel to try and get the engine up to operating temp.

I would avoid the water wetter and different caps and whatnot until you have the actual problem under control.

The 160 F T-stat is having no effect, just buys me an extra 5-10 minutes before it gets real hot. The radiator is just fine, not clogged. Electric fan is working perfectly. I ran a 160 F thermostat the first 3 years with no problem. Installed a 180 F T=stat for the winter late last year, then did not need it. Went back to the 160 F T-stat to see if the 180 T-stat had died when my lower rad hose came off on the freeway 5 weeks ago. There was no change, just took a little longer to overheat.

I am down to one of 2 major possibilities I think. One is the engine head valve train fixed itself (ticking tapped, sticking lifter came loose, and the engine is now running normal now, as my last tank of DD MPGs jumped 25% up, meaning my aluminum radiator is no longer adequit in 100 F summer heat, with AC running, plus this is the first summer I have tried to use it as the DD, with the new R-134a swap over from R-12, and it runs hotter, bigger heat load on the AC condenser which heats up the radiator) and it is now running hotter like a more normal 4.0 now.

Or, I have an E-manifold leak blowing on the head/block that I need to find.

Lastly, I don't intend to run mine at 220 F like many others do. One way or another, 104 F heat wave be damned, I will get this beast running no hotter than 205 at the T-stat housing if it kills me. :D

Once I have done that I will go back to the 180 T-stat.

Cap wise, I don't think you got the whole cap story. I am adding a standard cap with a filler tube assy to the radiator hose, and for now keeping the old style Renix bottle and closed system cap. I will use an 18 lb cap on the filler neck (raditor fill neck style) which is 2 lbs higher than the plastic bottle Renix cap rating. Then I will be able to test the system with a standard radiator tester pump system. It wil also make it easier to get trapped air out of the radiator and upper hose, which is a Renix coolant system design fault / problem.

So, long story short, I am trying to keep what I like about the closed Renix coolant system, and add what I think is missing from it, that is standard on the open systems.

Lastly, my education and experience in chemical engineering tell me that switching to a 25/75 water EG antifreeze mix in the summer, and adding water weter (a surfactant that lowers the surface tension......), will let the hardware (what I have now, and what I am upgrading to) remove far more heat than I can currently remove with 50/50 blend and no water wetter.

This is the sort of stuff I do for a living (chemical engineering) with industrial machinery.

That said, your comments about a 160 T-stat seems to be correct for the HO engine / computers!

Don't know if I posted the data in this thread, but I got it down to 205 F, from 235 F, when I just parked it after a good run in 104 F ambient heat with AC running, by just turning the AC off, and putting in park and letting it idle for 15 minutes, so I know I am close to being OK, and that pretty much says I just need a better radiator and condenser.

I am doing the cap filler neck mod, because I am tired of having no way to pressure test the Renix system, and to speed up getting the air out of the poor Renix cooling system design.
 
Re: Very puzzling overheating issue, not the usual suspects!

Ecomike said:
In the past 4 years, it has always run cooler with the AC on than with it off. The reason being that the when the AC compressor clutch engages it also turns on the electric fan (back up to the primary mechanical fluid clutch drive fan). The electric fan is working, but when I turn on the AC now the cooling system is getting hotter, where as in the past it use to always run cooler with the AC on.

Ecomike said:
The radiator is just fine, not clogged. Electric fan is working perfectly.

alright, good luck
 
There is info on Gojeep's site about Restricting the flow in the upper radiator hose to allow more time for cooling in the radiator. (just for reference, in case it was missed.)

Might stuff some foam rubber in gaps around the radiator to block the hot air from looping around ends, recirculating and blocking the fresh air. Don't take much 'leakage' at 104F to mess things up!

(Big box builders supply-window a/c black foam about 2x2 inch., or pipe insulation foam, or whatever is handy to test with ! )

Regards and Good Luck,
O
 
There is info on Gojeep's site about Restricting the flow in the upper radiator hose to allow more time for cooling in the radiator. (just for reference, in case it was discussed.)

Might stuff some foam rubber in gaps around the radiator to block the hot air from looping around ends, recirculating and blocking the fresh air. Don't take much 'leakage' at 104F to mess things up!

(Big box builders supply-window a/c black foam about 2x2 inch., or pipe insulation foam, or whatever is handy to test with ! )

Regards and Good Luck,
O

Thanks, I am actually planning on doing that this time. I have issues there for sure, between the rad and condenser, and the fan shroud to rad has issues too. I will be using the Polyethylene closed cell foam, clear / white stuff they use for shipping electronics, That stuff is indestructible. Oil, gas, solvent, do not phase it, and it handles the coolant system heat well too.

Just picked up my water wetter, and the Mr. Gasket radiator cap that displays actual coolant temperature right under the cap. Unfortunately all they had was the 16 pound cap version. At least I can use it for testing on all my rigs. I also got a fresh tube of "Goop" for gluing the insulation in place.

I actually expect about a 3-6 degree improvement from that alone, especially with the AC running.

Great suggestion.
 
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FYI that Mr. Gasket cap probably does not have a pressure release valve (the one I bought for testing didn't), meaning the overflow function will not work. Since you are a learned chemical engineer I do not need to tell you what will happen.
 
I just use the 2x2 inch stuff as the gap is about 1 inch so the foam (soft) squeezes down and holds itself in place. Also easy to remove if need to. (I've got my eyeball on the gaps, top and bottom, too with the summer heat.)

IMHO - The engine compartment is small and 'cluttered' for good air flow and i suspect that is a big part of our problems.

ANY thing weak in the cooling system causes problems and several things slightly weak will add up fast.

Oh, and it Never gets Hot in Detroit!

Regards,
O
 
FYI that Mr. Gasket cap probably does not have a pressure release valve (the one I bought for testing didn't), meaning the overflow function will not work. Since you are a learned chemical engineer I do not need to tell you what will happen.

Let's see, let me thunk here, either :flame: or :explosion, right? :D

This one, part number 2471S, has a 16 psi relief to the overflow tube, and my Renix cap still has a 16 psi bottle relief. On my diesel rig I will be dependent on the new cap, it is a not a closed Renix system. Frankly, from the looks of it, it is a much better quality cap than the Stant caps I have been buying. This one is very well built.
 
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FYI that Mr. Gasket cap probably does not have a pressure release valve (the one I bought for testing didn't), meaning the overflow function will not work. Since you are a learned chemical engineer I do not need to tell you what will happen.

Well it's all your fault, I am going to blame it on you, you jinxed it. :soapbox:

The one I have in hand won't seal at all! It also damn near would not go on. A standard cap went on fine, and sealed fine, so it's not the inline adapter.

Strange that yours did the opposite of mine. Sounds like a brand to stay away from. Mine is simply defective, it was designed to leak at 16 psi, not atmospheric, but it leaked at atmospheric, so it has me questioning their quality now. Thanks for the warning.

:wave:
 
Well I cranked the 87 Renix beast up today. To update, I installed a new water pump a short while ago, did not help, new thermostat was also no help, a new ZJ clutch helped some but not enough.

Today I started it up after installing a 97 AC parallel flow AC condenser (R-134a upgrade done 18 months ago). Also installed a 3 row all copper/ brass CSF (The real McCoy folks) radiator. I had also installed a Jugs in line filler neck in the upper radiator hose, currently with a 16 psi cap. New Renix POS bottle with a new 20 psi Volvo style cap by Stant on the bottle.

Got about 1.7 gallons into the cooling system, cranked her up. Let it run about 45 minutes while charging the AC system.

Most notable thing I noticed was that the right side (drivers side) of the radiator tank had a huge temperature gradient on the outlet tank from top to bottom. 120 F at the top and 190 F at the bottom. The thermostat housing was reading 220 F.

The AC condenser was 135 F everywhere (still charging so not real hot yet).
After scratching my head a while it dawned on what I was seeing.

Anyone know what causes this? (Besides me that is):D
 
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