To all Americans...

[Darky]

I guess all those nights I spent patrolling the old iron curtain were all a bad dream, the BDA I did in Laos a nightmare and my time skulking around Croatia a wrong turn on my way to Switzerland.
Extreme, try playing hide and seek with the Spensatz sometime. Where the rules are, no shooting as this may cause an international incident, most everything else goes but death.
I'd say extreme Border Patrol is an accurate description. Though my mission was mostly to observe and report and rarely interdiction. I was offered a position with the US border patrol at Yuma, in hindsight I probably should have taken it.
Why did I leave the US? The biggest reason was there were just too many A holes in the parts of America I was familiar with, unwilling to leave me in peace. My joys in life were exploring in the Desert, varmint hunting, surf fishing and canyon racing. I gave up the desert for the forest, the surf for a river or lake, they have varmints aplenty here, and the canyons, for other canyons and the autobahn. People here don't often mess with me, if at all.
They seem willing to accept my eccentricities and really don't care if I conform or not.
i didn't leave, as much as I forced out and remember at the time thinking the people who ran me off, are likely to be unhappy with whomever replaces me. I just got tired of being harassed and then having to pay for the privilege.
I guess every generation has to reinvent the wheel and most think the current model is the best yet.

I think you missed my point...it was half in jest, saying you live in another country now. We're still here. We have a little more of a current, vested interest. Plus I care enough about our country to respect the idea of having borders and having them respected. And again, while I respect the sacrifices made by all who've served, be it a single term like I did, a career, or deploying and taking a bullet for out country, it doesn't guarantee that your opinion will be worth more or that you know better than anyone else. Almost every president has military service under his belt and we've some great, some idiots.
I can understand feeling forced out, if CA passes this tax/vehicle reg hike, I may be forced back to AZ.

 

[Deadman 94 xj]

Hey, I served. It doesn't mean I have all the answers. Hell, half the people in my unit were idiots. I am a genius though :eyes:

With all due respect, when did this thread turn into the life story of 8Mud?

 

[Darky]

As I said before - the solution lies in the middle ground between the two extremes, and discussion is how you get there. Annexation is, natch, an extreme example of what could be done - and what we're doing (which is effectively nothing) is the other extreme.

How do you suggest we "properly police" the border? Also, would your solution include policing the border with Canada as well? While there aren't as many illegals coming across from the Great White North, we get plenty of European and Asian illegals coming into the country from Canada.

I think the Latinos who complain of racism WRT immigration issues aren't anything like close to what's going on (I don't mention race - they do!) but if we secure the southern border, we'd better secure the northern as well. Else, we'll be in the middle of a racism battle all over again, and probably worse than we're dealing with now.

One must take the wide view of things...

Yes, I'd recommend policing both borders. However, we would focus on whichever is the most problematic. If we lack manpower, we have plenty of UAVs. Arm them with non lethal ammo (beanbags, etc) with a backup lethal armament, for the drug dealers and others who are armed. Maybe create an active component to the Nat'l Guard to augment the Border Patrol. Rather than making it so easy for illegals to sue over "mistreatment", make it easier for our guys to do their jobs without excessive fear of getting sued. As suggested by others, go after employers who hire illegals. Take away the money, there'll be less reason to come. Find ways to help the Mexican economy so they have more jobs there. Make it clear to both Canada and Mexico anyone we catch trying to cross the border from their country will be sent back to them. Line the border with landmines. Well maybe not quite that far...
I hold nothing against legal immigrants coming here for a better life, so long as they're legal, and willing to work and become part of America rather than expecting us to change for them.

 

[8Mud]

Hey, I served. It doesn't mean I have all the answers. Hell, half the people in my unit were idiots. I am a genius though :eyes:

With all due respect, when did this thread turn into the life story of 8Mud?

When the innuendo started questioning my patriotism, qualifications and loyalty. More than a few insinuated, if you don't think just like them, you aren't American.
Now you seem to be questioning my IQ, a buck fifty the last time it was tested. Though I'll be the first to admit my communications skills are bit flaky.
All I've been trying to do is open up the group think, into a wider view of things. But hey I expected resistance, when you mess with someones value system, no matter how misguided, you expect resistance.
Having served you may have some insight into the problem. What is actually possible or even probable. Trying to do the the improbable with the unwilling. Herding cats.
You've convinced me it's a waste of time.

 

[8Mud]

Yes, I'd recommend policing both borders. However, we would focus on whichever is the most problematic. If we lack manpower, we have plenty of UAVs. Arm them with non lethal ammo (beanbags, etc) with a backup lethal armament, for the drug dealers and others who are armed. Maybe create an active component to the Nat'l Guard to augment the Border Patrol. Rather than making it so easy for illegals to sue over "mistreatment", make it easier for our guys to do their jobs without excessive fear of getting sued. As suggested by others, go after employers who hire illegals. Take away the money, there'll be less reason to come. Find ways to help the Mexican economy so they have more jobs there. Make it clear to both Canada and Mexico anyone we catch trying to cross the border from their country will be sent back to them. Line the border with landmines. Well maybe not quite that far...
I hold nothing against legal immigrants coming here for a better life, so long as they're legal, and willing to work and become part of America rather than expecting us to change for them.

You've likely hit the nail on the head, it has been said a hundred helicopters with the right optics, could interdict the vast majority of illegals. And likely be more effective than the fence. The powers that be aren't idiots and likely read the same sources I read. The only answer I can come up with, is they don't want to stop it, just slow it down some.

 

[Deadman 94 xj]

When the innuendo started questioning my patriotism, qualifications and loyalty. More than a few insinuated, if you don't think just like them, you aren't American.
Now you seem to be questioning my IQ, a buck fifty the last time it was tested. Though I'll be the first to admit my communications skills are bit flaky.
All I've been trying to do is open up the group think, into a wider view of things. But hey I expected resistance, when you mess with someones value system, no matter how misguided, you expect resistance.
Having served you may have some insight into the problem. What is actually possible or even probable. Trying to do the the improbable with the unwilling. Herding cats.
You've convinced me it's a waste of time.

Fair enough. I wasn't questioning your IQ at all. Just trying to take a step out of your walking on my value system. :cheers:

 

[XJEEPER]

Here's a prime example. Folks aren't gonna put up with this crap much longer....
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/09/16-illegals-sue-arizona-rancher/

 

[Glenn B]

Oooh, Oooh, been there, done that... the iron curtain stuff anyhow. Let me see if I can find you the same cookie I got.... nope, it is gone. Too bad. Yeah, we were "extreme border patrol" too in the 2d ACR and the Berlin Brigade. Still looking for that damned cookie... nope, I musta ate it. Sorry. Nope, not too many shots off... but I do feel bad for Major Arthur D. Nicholson and what he went through. Bad deal all around.

I guess all those nights I spent patrolling the old iron curtain were all a bad dream, the BDA I did in Laos a nightmare and my time skulking around Croatia a wrong turn on my way to Switzerland.
Extreme, try playing hide and seek with the Spensatz sometime. Where the rules are, no shooting as this may cause an international incident, most everything else goes but death.
I'd say extreme Border Patrol is an accurate description. Though my mission was mostly to observe and report and rarely interdiction. I was offered a position with the US border patrol at Yuma, in hindsight I probably should have taken it.

 

[Coastie]

Here's a prime example. Folks aren't gonna put up with this crap much longer....
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/09/16-illegals-sue-arizona-rancher/

There was a 4 or 5 page thread about this a few days ago with 8MUD and the illegal aliens vs most of the posters and America.

 

[BOB]

Yeah? And ilegals are forming street gangs, robbing houses, and getting away with murder every day. What's your point?

nothing home grown black, white or asians would do....

I suggest we have Mexicans build the damn wall..then
shuttle them over to our Canadian border.

5-90 has a good point about annexation.
I've always viewed that as a good possibility.
Once secured and policed adequately, can you
imagine how many us citizens would go there.
not only vacationing, but retiring and business in a warmer climate.
personally, I hope it does happen.

as far as illegals that are here now...I say until we have
a way to keep them out (a wall) they are our problem, they stay.
Once the wall goes up, deport every illegal after that, no questions asked.

BOB

 

[Darky]

When the innuendo started questioning my patriotism, qualifications and loyalty. More than a few insinuated, if you don't think just like them, you aren't American.
Now you seem to be questioning my IQ, a buck fifty the last time it was tested. Though I'll be the first to admit my communications skills are bit flaky.
All I've been trying to do is open up the group think, into a wider view of things. But hey I expected resistance, when you mess with someones value system, no matter how misguided, you expect resistance.
Having served you may have some insight into the problem. What is actually possible or even probable. Trying to do the the improbable with the unwilling. Herding cats.
You've convinced me it's a waste of time.

I'm not sure if it's that you have a different opinion or that your opinion is to just allow everyone to do what they want even if it's harmful to the country and/or people's property that's causing the problem.

 

[redeye202]

After WW2 we had the illeagal mexican problem,the president at that time used the army to round the up and ship them out of the country, the general who was in charge of the operation did not ship them back to mexico he shipped them to brazil instead and when word got out as to what was happening those who were still here went back across the boarder to mexico by the thousands without any help from the army. South of their own border,mexicans are hated more than they are hated here.
redeye202

 

[JNickel101]

There was a 4 or 5 page thread about this a few days ago with 8MUD and the illegal aliens vs most of the posters and America.

:roflmao:

Sorry, that was just too damn funny....

 

[Coastie]

After WW2 we had the illeagal mexican problem,the president at that time used the army to round the up and ship them out of the country, the general who was in charge of the operation did not ship them back to mexico he shipped them to brazil instead and when word got out as to what was happening those who were still here went back across the boarder to mexico by the thousands without any help from the army. South of their own border,mexicans are hated more than they are hated here.
redeye202

Source?

 

[kujito]

Look up "Operation Wetback".

 

[RichP]

Employers are the key, hit them with such heavy fines that it bankrupts them and guarantees some jail time and the problem will pretty much go away, and that is up to the corporate level, no hiding behind incorporation laws either. I am in favor of open borders, you should be able to walk back and forth till the cows come home but at the end of the day you need to go back home to where you came from unless you have gotten the correct paperwork to live and work here, no more so than I would expect to travel to Mexico and work there for a few months at say a resort installing systems without paperwork.

 

[5-90]

Employers are the key, hit them with such heavy fines that it bankrupts them and guarantees some jail time and the problem will pretty much go away, and that is up to the corporate level, no hiding behind incorporation laws either. I am in favor of open borders, you should be able to walk back and forth till the cows come home but at the end of the day you need to go back home to where you came from unless you have gotten the correct paperwork to live and work here, no more so than I would expect to travel to Mexico and work there for a few months at say a resort installing systems without paperwork.

Pretty much where I've always been as well. I honestly don't think anyone is living "where their people came from" anymore, so that can't be rightly used as a touchstone for "who owns where." People have settled in regions and continents now, and that's what we have to work with.

Something the "advocates" always seem to miss - the best way to tell if a deal is fair is to reverse it. Would Central America like to handle an influx of some twelve million people who don't pay taxes, who drain their nation's resources, and have children who are automatically citizens so they (the parents) can stay? If it doesn't feel fair when it's reflected, it ain't fair. Period.

One of the first things we should do for immigration reform is to get rid of the "anchor baby" policy - unless your parents are citizens or legal resident aliens, you ain't a citizen just because you're born here. Wherever your parents are from, that's your country (if both of your folks are Salvadorean, so are you.) Mixed parentage should be traced matrilinearly.