The Archangel Build Thread

[ehall]

This is the XJ "frame"

It's sheet metal that is spot-welded to the sheet metal floorboard, which is spot-welded to the exterior body panels.

All the doors, hatches, windows, etc., all contribute to making the thing rigid. If you rely on the "frame" for anything it will bend over

 

[2xtreme]

You have to look at the structure of a unibody vehicle to work as a complete system. When you remove all of the "shear plane" structure of the doors, and rear roof, windows, etc you no longer have the stucture that is inherant with the entire "system". Adding a few bars between the roof and the rear of the frame will not provide the same structure as the body provided. I am not going to say that it wouldn't help, but I wouldn't consider it any significant support.

Personally, I wouldn't consider anything other than a full cage (minimum from "A" pillar to "D" pillar) to replace the structure of the vehicle that is lost, but this is only my opinion.

Michael

 

[Twicepardoned]

This is the XJ "frame"

It's sheet metal that is spot-welded to the sheet metal floorboard, which is spot-welded to the exterior body panels.

All the doors, hatches, windows, etc., all contribute to making the thing rigid. If you rely on the "frame" for anything it will bend over

Thank you for the photo! very helpful in understanding this. I did not realize that the 'frame' was nothing more than sheet metal. I actually though it was meatier

 

[RCman]

Thank you for the photo! very helpful in understanding this. I did not realize that the 'frame' was nothing more than sheet metal. I actually though it was meatier

Hey now! I'm going to take full credit for that photo. Not only did I take that photo, it's my XJ!

ehall = photo stealing :looser:








PS: I really have no problem with it, just give credit where credit is due.


Back on topic:
I know that you probably now realise how much support and rigidity you took out, I just don't see how you didn't notice it driving it.
If I was doing something similar (wait, I am)... plate the entire unibody rail from front to back and with a full cage layout. I know I can get my body to flex just by pushing on it with one hand now. Yet, I did drop the rear floor section, hence how I got the photo.

 

[XJ_ranger]

dont listen to these guys...

where the suspension stops flexxxxxing, your body will take over!


- for reference, this is my junk -

 

[Twicepardoned]

dont listen to these guys...

where the suspension stops flexxxxxing, your body will take over!

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.?.?.?
I don't want the body to flex or it'll bend out of shape, right?

 

[Mr.OverKill]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.?.?.?
I don't want the body to flex or it'll bend out of shape, right?

right, body flex = BAD, otherwise there would be no market for the frame stiffeners they sell.

in all reality, stiffen/ reinforce the frame and add a cage, front to rear and add extra to the drivers area if you want to but with the cutting you have done you NEED to cage the back and tie it all in to the front as stated earlier, we wont tell you to do something beyond what you want to do if it is at least the minimum needed to be safe for you and keep your rig solid.

 

[XJ_ranger]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.?.?.?
I don't want the body to flex or it'll bend out of shape, right?

I was being sarcastic - note the pictures of my rig with 'unibody re-enforcement' cage...:greensmok

 

[Twicepardoned]

BTW any idea as to how much I should plan on spending on tubing? I was thinking about saving some cash and buying HREW instead of DOM depending on how much I'd save. Any idea?

 

[2xtreme]

BTW any idea as to how much I should plan on spending on tubing? I was thinking about saving some cash and buying HREW instead of DOM depending on how much I'd save. Any idea?

You will have to compare locally what you can get with respect to DOM or HREW and their costs. I have found that it is relatively easy to get HREW in stock in a selection of sizes. DOM I would have to order and pay much more for because it is a special order item. I would guess between $400 and $600 for a very decent start.

My opinion is that a well designed cage is more important than the material selection. A well designed cage built with 1.75" .120wall HREW would be a good starting point. You could use thicker, larger tube, or stronger material in specific areas of concern if you wanted it.

Michael

 

[lancey3]

Are you Thricepardoned now?

 

[Twicepardoned]

hmmmm?

 

[lancey3]

Hahahaha.

Thats why I asked you about the stiffeners on page one.

 

[Twicepardoned]

Gotcha...

Well all in all I am just not the type of person who is so prideful that I cannot be 'reasoned' into a better decision. I know too many people that are stuck on 'their' way simply because it was 'their' initial thought. I prefer to not build something that turns out to be crap! hahaha

So I welcome the constructive criticism. In fact I almost feel like this build will be a corralation of everyone ideas on here.
7 months ago I could have cared less about "off-roading" but now I have learned to love it and appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into a well built machine... obviously I am still approaching it from the standpoint of "Can I build a Badass crawler for cheap?"

So I have been looking endlessly for lots of HREW tubing.

BTW with my weight down, do you guys think I'd be able to drop size and go with 1.5 x .120? OR Shoudl I go up to 1.75?

 

[The Griz]

BTW with my weight down, do you guys think I'd be able to drop size and go with 1.5 x .120? OR Shoudl I go up to 1.75?[/quote]

i have 1.5 x.120 for my cage and dont feel that it is too small i feel that it will fully protect me when i am done with it and have the proper triangulation the t is the key tho proper triangulation think about what kind of force is gonna be put on this and from what angle but 1.5 x .120 should be strong enough

 

[RCman]

So I have been looking endlessly for lots of HREW tubing.

BTW with my weight down, do you guys think I'd be able to drop size and go with 1.5 x .120? OR Shoudl I go up to 1.75?

Well, I don't have an experiance with HREW building a cage (or with DOM yet for that matter), but I'm going with DOM for the peice of mind. I just can't bring myself to use HREW.

As for the 1.75" 0.120 wall vs the 1.5" 0.120 wall debate that is up to you. Personally, I'm going with 1.75" 0.120 wall again for that peice of mind (that and the die I bought for my bender is 1.75" 240degree).

The above choices mean it will deffinatly cost more and will require me saving for longer given my limited budget , but I think it'll be worth it.

 

[lancey3]

Gotcha...

Well all in all I am just not the type of person who is so prideful that I cannot be 'reasoned' into a better decision. I know too many people that are stuck on 'their' way simply because it was 'their' initial thought. I prefer to not build something that turns out to be crap! hahaha

So I welcome the constructive criticism. In fact I almost feel like this build will be a corralation of everyone ideas on here.
7 months ago I could have cared less about "off-roading" but now I have learned to love it and appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into a well built machine... obviously I am still approaching it from the standpoint of "Can I build a Badass crawler for cheap?"

So I have been looking endlessly for lots of HREW tubing.

BTW with my weight down, do you guys think I'd be able to drop size and go with 1.5 x .120? OR Shoudl I go up to 1.75?

You are a rare type of newcomer around here. But ya look into some TNT frame stiffeners.

http://www.tntcustoms.com/page.asp?pageid=59

 

[2xtreme]

As has been said before. The DESIGN of the cage is more important than the material. I don't think there would be anything wrong with 1.5" HREW but I don't think the cost should be the rational as much as the size constraints. Personally I would error on the side of larger material particularly since this is your first cage build and I would suspect the difference in cost would be negligable. The larger material is significantly stronger!

1.75 material is not significantly intrusive for the passenger compartment area as long as it is designed well.

Michael

 

[Twicepardoned]

You are a rare type of newcomer around here. But ya look into some TNT frame stiffeners.

http://www.tntcustoms.com/page.asp?pageid=59

The p[rice doesn't seem too bad although I wonder if I bought a bunch of angle steel if I wouldn't be able to make the same thing for half the price???

 

[Twicepardoned]

I had built a side exit exhaust BUT with all the doors off I think it's a bad idea...
I took it out for a drive today and got sick as hell. Got serious tunnel vision, headache, stomach cramp... I think taking the doors/hatch off allowed the fumes to circulate into the cab because I could swear it was carbon monoxide poisoning
30 minutes later I was fine fyi