Should the Government own a stake in the "BIG Three"?

[RichP]

Yes.
The dividends from the U.S. investments would return to the treasury just as when Chrysler was on the skids in the early 1980's. Started under the Carter administration the "bailout" was later renewed in 1983 under the poster boy of conservatism President Ronald Reagan administration. I lived through it, just out of the military and working in the shops at a dealership.

The govt bailout of chrysler in the 80's was not too too bad, it did get the army some more streetable vehicles in the pickup trucks, that was good for the guard as 90% of their driving is on the street getting to training areas. Driving 90mi one way to ft dix on sat morning, then 90mi back sunday evening in a M151 with a trailer flat out sucked not to mention 300 up to Ft Drum NY and then back, then the side trips over the year of 290mi round trip to indian town gap in pa. Then GM got the next contract with the blazers and pickups, diesel powered of course, stupid chrysler for not seeing that coming and putting a diesel wrangler and pickup in the mix. Thats the problem, the CEO's and boards are just plain $ucking stupid AND THEY GET PAID FOR BEING THAT STUPID.... Imagine what someone with some BRAINS and COMMON SENSE could do.
I remember when they were talking about our war production back during WWII and how the heads of those companies doing war material productiong tried to cash in on it to give themselves raises and not do anything for the workers, the agency in charge said you do that and you will go to jail pretty quick, no trial, just a military judgment and SLAMMER CITY for the duration.I liked that, keep em honest thru intimadation.....

 

[Boatwrench]

Thats the problem, the CEO's and boards are just plain $ucking stupid AND THEY GET PAID FOR BEING THAT STUPID.... Imagine what someone with some BRAINS and COMMON SENSE could do.
.....

I agree. This is not the workers' fault, GM has been mismanaged. The problem isn't 'The Union' some GM Manager had to agree to and approve those contracts. ALIBI: Some Union officials are corporate, meaning they are only in it for the good of the union organization structure and not the good of the workers that make the body. but that is a slim minority in my experience.


BUT: ... for the good of the country some shoring up of this industry needs to occur. America cannot survive if it looses all it's manufacturing base. If that many workers hit the streets that is less tax revenue for the government and is actually an increase in expenditures through use of more unemployment and other government services.

The Jeep dealer in San Francisco closed it's doors yesterday after 60 years in the same location. Another Chevrolet dealer announced that it would be out of business on 14 December. That will be the third in less than two months and means the closest Chevrolet dealer to San Francisco will be 25 miles away. For folks in the center of the country 25 miles is probably the norm, but the population center of the San Farncisco Bay area is over 10 million.

 

[Ecomike]

The Jeep dealer in San Francisco closed it's doors yesterday after 60 years in the same location. Another Chevrolet dealer announced that it would be out of business on 14 December. That will be the third in less than two months and means the closest Chevrolet dealer to San Francisco will be 25 miles away. For folks in the center of the country 25 miles is probably the norm, but the population center of the San Farncisco Bay area is over 10 million.

10 million and 25 miles!
:shiver:

Dealerships need to learn how to fix old cars at a reasonable price, real fast or become extinct.

 

[IslanderOffRoad]

(side bar: are all Pirius owners snooty or just those in California?). .

Priuses put out less smog, but more SMUG pollution.


GM only needs 2 brands: Chevrolet and Cadillac.

Then they need to work on hiring some engineers over from Honda and Toyota, and learn how to build a decent 4cyl midsized sedan.

A real Camry or Accord competitor that can pull over 30mpg with an auto trans, seat 5 comfortably and not look like crap will do wonders to re-vitalize them.

Follow it up with a compact, then move into the other lines. Offer a 100k warranty like Hyundai. Dump the 0% bs and price the cars realistically so they're not selling on rebates alone. If you're going to knock 3k off the price anyways, price it 3k lower to begin with.

 

[IslanderOffRoad]

Also I have no idea how Rick Wagoner has been able to keep his job this long. The guy has overseen a huge slide in market share at GM and nobody ever talks about ousting him? If I were a shareholder I'd be all over the board to get him out of there.

The unions are not to blame, but they certainly don't help either. Mangement and the unions need to sit down and realize that if they don't work together NOBODY is going to have a job in a few years. The unions have to make some concessions, as does management on salary, benefits, etc. Cut it all, make GM work, then re-discuss both sides getting a raise because they worked together and were successful.

 

[RichP]

Also I have no idea how Rick Wagoner has been able to keep his job this long. The guy has overseen a huge slide in market share at GM and nobody ever talks about ousting him? If I were a shareholder I'd be all over the board to get him out of there.

The unions are not to blame, but they certainly don't help either. Mangement and the unions need to sit down and realize that if they don't work together NOBODY is going to have a job in a few years. The unions have to make some concessions, as does management on salary, benefits, etc. Cut it all, make GM work, then re-discuss both sides getting a raise because they worked together and were successful.

First part, contracts these crummy CEO's negotiate before they even take the job. It costs more to get rid of them than keep them and all those CEO's take care of each other, worse than west point ring knockers....

Fat chance, when was the last time, or any time for that matter, that management has EVER given a rats ass about the blood and sweat a line worker puts in. If they do increase their output by a large percentage MANAGEMENT takes the credit and the bonuses then passes some of it down the line to the stock holders to keep them happy.
All the workers get is maybe an 'attaboy' and carry on....

 

[Goatman]

The financial system is a house of cards. It gets convoluted and involved, but how can anybody expect growth and profits to go up forever? Even if you produce a product that costs more and lasts a shorter period of time, sooner or late there will be market saturation.
Established big industry eventually fails and lays off employees, who are also likely to buy less and the downward spiral begins.
The bailout money is seed money to try and keep the system going long enough to recover. Whether the finacial system has finally hit a wall and won't recover, I guess nobody knows for sure.
Costs and taxes have been going up for decades while wages have been falling farther and farther behind. Which is one way to post profits, but eventually castrates your consumer base.
The adults in a normal household all have to work now on days, families with children are almost universally forced to farm the raising of there children out to the state or other individuals. In effect two or more wage earners are getting paid relatively the same as one did 40 years ago and most all of the kids are being raised by strangers and/or neglected.
Joe wage earner is forced to consume less, whether he wants to or not, the downward spiral begins anew.
Any one of these factors could shake the house of cards. Outside influences like doubling the price of fuel, waging a war or natural catastrophe can make things more unstable.
You have government, the utility companies, producers of consumables, landlords and everybody else under the sun trying to figure out a way to get a larger percentage of your pay check at the same time and maximize there profits. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the money pit isn't bottomless and the people trying to maximize there profits with your paycheck are eventually going to use you up.

IMO the finacial system is FUBAR

One reason I bought GE stock way back when, they made affordable, simple, durable, long lasting washing machines.
Those days are dead, the bean counters and the engineers have gotten there heads together and have just about milked the consumer dry. Marketing, engineered obsolescence, collusive pricing, greed and plain old theft have gutted the consumer. You start looking into who actually owns supposedly competing brands and find out most are owned by the same company (many are foreign based).

OK, so what's your point?

Sounds like you're making a point against capatilism and for socialism, or even communism. You could be simply saying that downturns are a normal part of the system, but you could make that point without the negative implications about all the ways that consumers are getting hosed.

I think the American consumer basically gets what they want. Folks believe the stupid commercials and the nightly news. Consummers buy plenty of things they don't need, throw away good things just to get the newer stuff, change their cars like they are changing their clothes, make rediculous financing arrangements on their cars and homes, run up their credit cards and don't save much money, many aren't willing to raise their families on single incomes so they can keep a higher standard of living. So, you want to blame all that on major business? Business can only be successful if consumers buy the stuff.

Yes, greed in business is a problem, and their is a normal cycle of up turns and down turns, but don't let the American consumer off the hook, in many ways we get exactly what we want. A very good example is bitching about American car companies that make too many trucks and SUV's and not enough high mileage cars. Well, folks don't come in to buy the cars, they come in to buy the trucks and SUV's, so what are the manufacturers supposed to make? Sure, there have been bad decisions by the car companies, but the blame for the total problem is shared by many factors.

Both major corporations and consumers need to rethink how we do things. Consumers are doing this now, which is one cause of the current down turn, which forces businesses to do the same. It's tough on everyone, and there is no one place to place the blame.

 

[IslanderOffRoad]

First part, contracts these crummy CEO's negotiate before they even take the job. It costs more to get rid of them than keep them and all those CEO's take care of each other, worse than west point ring knockers....

Fat chance, when was the last time, or any time for that matter, that management has EVER given a rats ass about the blood and sweat a line worker puts in. If they do increase their output by a large percentage MANAGEMENT takes the credit and the bonuses then passes some of it down the line to the stock holders to keep them happy.
All the workers get is maybe an 'attaboy' and carry on....

Thats true, but its time for a paradigm shift so the companies can survive.

 

[Ecomike]

Fat chance, when was the last time, or any time for that matter, that management has EVER given a rats ass about the blood and sweat a line worker puts in. If they do increase their output by a large percentage MANAGEMENT takes the credit and the bonuses then passes some of it down the line to the stock holders to keep them happy.
All the workers get is maybe an 'attaboy' and carry on....

Gotta love that trickle down economic policy, works so well, but I've been waiting for my trickle since 1981.

 

[Goatman]

Priuses put out less smog, but more SMUG pollution.


GM only needs 2 brands: Chevrolet and Cadillac.

Then they need to work on hiring some engineers over from Honda and Toyota, and learn how to build a decent 4cyl midsized sedan.

A real Camry or Accord competitor that can pull over 30mpg with an auto trans, seat 5 comfortably and not look like crap will do wonders to re-vitalize them.

Follow it up with a compact, then move into the other lines. Offer a 100k warranty like Hyundai. Dump the 0% bs and price the cars realistically so they're not selling on rebates alone. If you're going to knock 3k off the price anyways, price it 3k lower to begin with.

Good points, but here's more. Just so you know, I work at a Ford dealership. Domestic brands quality is WAY up, yet they have yet to get the recognition for it, so folks don't come in to buy the cars. Ford's quality is up to the point of being close to even with Honda and Toyota quality, and they have excellent car product with very good mileage, yet there hasn't been enough time go by to re-earn the reputation for it, so folks don't come in to buy them.

The Fusion has been consistently rated highest in quality in it's class, back and forth with Accord, and better than Camry. Nissan is an import, yet has worse corporate quality ratings than either GM or Ford, and less than average for the industry. The Titan has the worst quality rating of all full size pickups. The F150 has gone back and forth with Tundra lately on the best quality rating for full size trucks. Ranger has gone back and forth with Tacoma for the best quality ratings for the small trucks for years. Part of the domestics problem is enough time going by to reverse the previously earned reputation for not having the right car product and having less quality than the imports, when the reality is that situation is already pretty much resolved. Reputations aren't lost overnight, and they aren't regained overnight.

Ragarding interest incentives and rebates. Unfortunately, financing is the biggest single issue to most car purchases. And paying off the loan on the trade in. A lower initial price doesn't help either of those situations, yet low interest and rebates do. More sales are possible with incentives than with overall lower prices. Probably not the best situation, but it's reality.

 

[IslanderOffRoad]

Good points Goat, thanks for your input as someone on the sales end.

I bought my Accord back in 06. Before that I had a 2003 Mustang GT, and before that a Chevy S10. I heard good things about the Fusion but considering the problems I had with my Mustang I didn't want to touch a Ford product; that included Mazda too, and I really liked the 6, 3, and Miata. Add to that the fact that you can never find the domestic mid sizer's with a manual trans, and that sealed the deal for me on a Honda.

 

[RichP]

Good points Goat, thanks for your input as someone on the sales end.
Add to that the fact that you can never find the domestic mid sizer's with a manual trans, and that sealed the deal for me on a Honda.

Thats a biggie for me right there, I don't buy automatics, period, if I had the spare coin handy I'd be converting the wifes ZJ to a 5 speed, I already have most of the parts except the tranny and clutch got the trim pieces, pedals and brackets and I'm actually considering it if that chrysler tranny pukes the big one, I hope not too soon though.

 

[IslanderOffRoad]

Thats a biggie for me right there, I don't buy automatics, period, if I had the spare coin handy I'd be converting the wifes ZJ to a 5 speed, I already have most of the parts except the tranny and clutch got the trim pieces, pedals and brackets and I'm actually considering it if that chrysler tranny pukes the big one, I hope not too soon though.

Hell I looked online today.. you can't even get the new Malibu in a stick!

I dig the Cobalt SS drivetrain except for what its wrapped in...

Put that turbo 4 in the Malibu with a stick and leave the body stock... no wings, no flashy riceboy crap and I'll buy it.

I told Honda the same thing when I decided I didn't want the Civic SI. I'm not in high school anymore and I don't need to be boy racer at work.

 

[Ecomike]

GM and Ford stock has nearly doubled since the lows of Thursday last week!

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/engine-democracy-coalition-send-workers/story.aspx?guid=%7B92D43D2F%2DB258%2D4187%2DA1F6%2D3BE66E385E5B%7D&dist=pfbeta

 

[XJEEPER]

Goatman nailed it on the head.......as to who created the attitude of entitlement and associated greed, is irrelevent. If you buy into it, you are part of the problem.

 

[Ecomike]

Seems that UK and Japan are bailing out their auto industries, so much for the idea that this is just a Detroit auto problem. Canada has announced that it will chip in 2.8 billion in loans to GM to help save the Canadian auto industry.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/sto...099654B350}&dateid=39794.7414353819-946095223

 

[8Mud]

OK, so what's your point?

Sounds like you're making a point against capatilism and for socialism, or even communism. You could be simply saying that downturns are a normal part of the system, but you could make that point without the negative implications about all the ways that consumers are getting hosed.

I think the American consumer basically gets what they want. Folks believe the stupid commercials and the nightly news. Consummers buy plenty of things they don't need, throw away good things just to get the newer stuff, change their cars like they are changing their clothes, make rediculous financing arrangements on their cars and homes, run up their credit cards and don't save much money, many aren't willing to raise their families on single incomes so they can keep a higher standard of living. So, you want to blame all that on major business? Business can only be successful if consumers buy the stuff.

Yes, greed in business is a problem, and their is a normal cycle of up turns and down turns, but don't let the American consumer off the hook, in many ways we get exactly what we want. A very good example is bitching about American car companies that make too many trucks and SUV's and not enough high mileage cars. Well, folks don't come in to buy the cars, they come in to buy the trucks and SUV's, so what are the manufacturers supposed to make? Sure, there have been bad decisions by the car companies, but the blame for the total problem is shared by many factors.

Both major corporations and consumers need to rethink how we do things. Consumers are doing this now, which is one cause of the current down turn, which forces businesses to do the same. It's tough on everyone, and there is no one place to place the blame.

My point is, maybe you have to take few backwards steps to move forward again. Building a common sense, durable, long lasting product isn't the current trend. It was in the fifties and it sure wasn't called communism back then, it was called common sense.
I fully agree with you, that industry and the consumer have to rethink how they do things.