Project RAM assist

[vintagespeed]

I've got a Chief single-ended ram it's 1.5" bore x 8" stroke and an 1.125" shaft it was about $50 + a spare set of seals from surplus center.

-jb

 

[ashmanjeepxj]

Rock logic Ram Assist Kit: $220, (Single ended ram) 1.5in bore, 8in stroke, 3/4in shafts, Tabs, hoses, and rod ends. look for it in the pirate vendor showcase to get it for only $200)
http://www.rocklogic4x4.com/products/ramassist/sm_HydroAssistKit.JPG

West Texas off road, steering ram kit product review, Pirate:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/productreviews/redneckram/

West Texas off road steering ram review, mounted on dana 60 behind the axle. looks like the 2.5in bore 8in stroke ram the "lion 2500" RAM.
http://www.bc4x4.com/pr/2002/ram/

That same ram "Lion 2500" can be found at Baileynet.com: $60
http://www.baileynet.com/baileynet/productBrowse.asp?sku=219529

Bailey 250: 1.5in bore, 8in stroke, 3/4in rod $125:
http://www.baileynet.com/baileynet/productBrowse.asp?sku=216253



That Bailey 250 looks like a really Nice FIND!!!

Ill add more tomarrow at lunch.

 

[BrettM]

what makes it better than the surpluscenter ones?

 

[ashmanjeepxj]

what makes it better than the surpluscenter ones?

The Bailey 250:
Bore: 1 1/2"
Stroke: 8"
Rod Diameter: 3/4"
Retracted Length: 15"
Column Load: Full PSI
Port Size: 3/8" NPTF
Pin Diameter: 3/4"
Cross Tube Length - Rod End: 1 1/2"
Cross Tube Length - Base End: 2 1/8"
PSI Rating: 2500
Piston: High grade ductile iron
Tube: Precision honed DOM 1026 material
Rod: Ground and polished chromed C-1045 steel, 75,000 PSI yield
Butt Plate: C-1045 steel
End Mounts: C-1026 steel cross tubes with grease zerk

The surpluss center equivalent ram:
SPECIFICATIONS
Double Acting
Bore/Stroke 1 1/2" x 8"
2,000 PSI max
Rod dia 3/4"
Push/Pull 3,350 / 2,650 lbs
Ports 3/8" NPT
Retracted Length 13 1/2"
Shpg 12 lbs
END MOUNTINGS
Rod End Crosstube
Pin hole 3/4"
1-1/4" cross-tube width
Base End Crosstube
Pin hole 3/4"
2" cross-tube width


The surpluss center ram is 1.5in shorter compressed length that is good.
The Bailey is rated for more pressure 2500PSI, Has greasable fittings at the bolt holes, Piston: High grade ductile iron the Surplus ram is (???),
Tube: Precision honed DOM 1026 material the surplus ram is (???),
Rod: Ground and polished chromed C-1045 steel, 75,000 PSI yield the Surplus ram is (???)

The bailey seams to be an equivalent ram in performance, but looks to be better quality materials and costs a little more.

Ill probibly get the surplus center ram and asve afew bucks, and if it wares our fast Ill get the Bailey 250.

 

[Danno]

Any reason NOT to use a double ended ram?

Surplus center has one for a little over $100. Everything I've read really recomends this feature. I'm needing something in a couple of weeks so this is really germain info for me. Thanks, Danno

 

[ashmanjeepxj]

Surplus center has one for a little over $100. Everything I've read really recomends this feature. I'm needing something in a couple of weeks so this is really germain info for me. Thanks, Danno

Are you talking about the one I have linked above? a double ended ram for like $109 from surpluscenter?

Since It has a larger bore the stock pump wouldent work well with it.
I couldent find any smaller bore double ended rams?
Give me a link.

 

[Danno]

double ended ram

I'm talking about this:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020322190510&item=9-5587&catname=hydraulic

 

[BrettM]

that's a 2.25" bore, maybe good if you're going full hydro, not for hydro assist

 

[Danno]

double ended ram...

yeah, I'm looking at full hydro. Any idea how much fluid flow would be neccesary to power it?

 

[ashmanjeepxj]

yeah, I'm looking at full hydro. Any idea how much fluid flow would be neccesary to power it?

Dude, cmon..

I showed that exact same ram in my first post. I said I would need a bigger flow pump, and I gave a link to a thread on pirate where a guy mounted it and used an additional pump. He used it as ram assist, though It would work well for full hydro, you will have to address the 10.25in throw on it so it dosent snap one of your knuckles.

Read that thread,


This is a RAM Assist thread.

 

[ashmanjeepxj]

Today I ordered the

1.5in bore, 8in stroke, 3/4in shaft ram from surpluss center,
$94 after shipping.


Monday Ill measure and know if I want the 3ft or 4.5ft hydraulic lines from west texas off road, they are cheep, Only $45 for the pair, either length!

Im also gonna buy the a steering box seal kit from west texas off road $45 on monday.

I already have the $20 tranny cooler on my PS pump.

Since I will rebuild, drill, and tap my own box, and modify my pump for more flow and pressure.

Im sitting at $204 for the hydro assist setup.

In 3-10 days I should have all the goods.

 

[Matt]

Step one: ignore any double ended ram with a rod size under 3/4" - there have been plenty that have been bent (that size works OK on a small forklift and thats about it)

You need a 2.5" to 3" bore double ender with a 1.5" min rod, preferably tapped to 3/4 -16tpi for heims - surplus center had one that fits those specs the last time I looked ~110$ so no huge price jump

Step two: mount it to the axle; the goal here is to eliminate the flex and slop of control arms, frame and track bar mounts... not induce more load to those areas!!!

Your single ender will work fine - just make sure you have enough travel in the stroke of the cylinder and that you set it up so there is a 1/4" of air space between the OEM axle stops on the knuckles (you do not want to bottom out as you will blow the knuckle off the axle tube - not necissarily the first time but it will happen - and it will be really lame)

With the single ender you will have more power to one side but the number of lock to lock turns will remain unchanged - a full hydro single ender on the street is a little weird but still drivable (mine can hit 70 OK before I reach my comfort limits)

Tap the casting as shown in the write ups and run the lines as short as possible - use steel JIC fittings except for where you enter the ram (I use an adapter that goes from NTP to JIC and is left in the ram when I pull a hose - eliminates leakage and the need to retape when pulling a line) EDIT: As for the box use straight o-ring boss fitting that convert to JIC - the o-ring will seal (not the threads) preventing excessive splitting pressure from a tapered thread cut into a casting that was not designed to be drilled and tapped in that location...

Lines should be a good power steering hose 100r5 rated (-6 JIC / 3/8" is fine) - reusable fittings are good so you can field repair hoses and just carry a few feet of extra line and some loose fittings to fix just about anything...

Synthetic power steering fluid, a cooler and a filter are all good things as well - I would not make any changes to the pump until you have driven it a few times - and even then just try drilling the orifice to 11/64" before raising the relief cartridge spring rate...

Beyond that there are only a few places a ram will actually fit - I cut a 1" hole in my home built pass side high steer arm and then made a mounting tab from 1" plate on the 3rd link wishbone mount - it is brutally strong but one other hint: Make sure your ram is mounted at the same front to back angle as your caster - makes it relatively bind free over the entire range of the knuckle...

HTH

Matt

I will have to get some pics up as it sits now full hydro - just imagine the draglink gone and no pitman arm dangling down... All the rest is the same

 

[Matt]

I'm talking about this:
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020322190510&item=9-5587&catname=hydraulic

Danno the one you want is this one (unless you can drill and tap the ends on the one you listed and are running 38's and smaller - then you can use the one you linked) :

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020322190510&item=9-6185&catname=hydraulic

You will have to mod the mounts but the ends are already done to a standard 3/4" rod end (16tpi)


Max - you are forgetting that because it is double ended you need to subtract the rod volume from the bore volume - that cylinder he listed puts out 2420lbs of force at 1100psi and has a usable surface area of 2.2" squared - for comparison a 1.5" bore (.75" rod) cylinder has 1.76" on the piston side and 1.32" on the rod side

The standard 2" bore cylinder has 3.15" on the piston side and .995" on the rod side

the one I linked you to has 5.31" of working piston surface and outputs 5841lbs of force at 1100 psi (3" bore with 1.5" rod)

The OEM TC pump can do 2-3.7 (modded for flow) gpm = 462 to 855 cu" / min

To go lock to lock the larger ram needs 58.41cu" of fluid

with the OEM pump it would take 7.58 to 4.09 seconds to go lock to lock - Do you really need to go from full lock to full lock any faster than that...

With my 2" bore single ender it verges on twitchy - the orbital valve puts out 4.8 cu" per rev and the lock to lock is 4 turns in the piston side and 2.5 turns on the rod side with the the following force outputs 2365/3460lbs and the following times - (assuming I could turn the wheel that fast!) 1.54 sec/ 2.26 sec... (times are based on 500 cu" per min : aka mid range; since I have modded my pump but never measured it I was conservative)

As you can see there is a large range of ram sizes that will work - usually the limiting factor is the valve - be it orbital or the internal metering of the power steering box (I have never seen any cu"/rev data for the OEM box)

Now are you confused :roflmao:

Matt

PS: with that bigger double ended ram I would use at least 9.7 cu"/rev (5.97 truns lock to lock) orbital or possibly a 12.x cu"/rev (4.8 turns lock to lock): if you wanted really limited turns lock to lock you need a 23 to 25 cu"/ rev which would give you 2.5 turns lock to lock (but you may run into problems with the pump supplying an orbital valve metering chamber that big...

 

[Danno]

Matt.....

Thanks, that was exactly what I need for info. Now, with what you said about needing an orbital valve...what about this one? Or got any better suggestions? It looks like it might need a bigger pump!? The 3" ram looks like the ticket with what you described. now need to choose an orbital valve.


http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2004020620565211&item=9-5365&catname=hydraulic

On my rock crawler I'm going full hydro but on my XJ it will just be an assist. The rock crawler is what I'm buying for now. Thanks VERY much for the info and advice. Danno

 

[Dazz]

Matt,
Not that it will be a street rig, but have you driven your rig with the hydro setup on the street? How does it drive compare to the stock setup?

Just curious!

TIA!

 

[BrettM]

it may be hard to miss since he wrote so much (not dissing, I appreciate the depth of tech), but he said he can get it up to 70 before it makes him nervous and he takes it down.

 

[XJEEPER]

http://www.rocklogic4x4.com/

I know the guys here and Carl and Von are nearly done with an XJ version of their Toyota ram assist. Give them a yell, they've had much success with the Toy and rock rig units.........big tires don't always mean you need a big ram.

 

[Goatman]

I'm going to end up going to hydraulic assist, especially after hitting a rock hard enough to rip my steering box off the frame last weekend.....and put a crack in the pitman arm. I've been happy enough with the performance of my AGR pump and Tommy Lee box that I have put off going to hydro assist, even though the box was already tapped for it.

I see different typs of ends on the various rams, and it looks like most of the places that sell a hydro assist kit use rams with rod ends. To me, this would be the best idea, since it would allow for some side to side movement as well as pivoting. Any thoughts on this, especially with a discussion about getting rams at a better price by buying direct? I can get the mounting tabs and lines easily locally, so buying just a ram would be the cheapest way to go for me. I want good handling at speed, so a smaller size ram is what I want.

I also wonder how to get the ram to travel exactly the same distance as the tie rod moves lock to lock. I measured mine, and it has 7.5" of movement, lock to lock. With an 8" ram, how do you handle the extra 1/2" of ram movement? I do have VERY stout steering stops.....the D44 high steer arms hit against the spring perches, leaving very little leverage against the knuckle. I would be more concerned about excess force against the tie rod.

 

[BrettM]

rodends are best, but add to the expense

you can buy just the ram from West Texas Offroad for $150 (with rodends)

if it's a tie-rod cylinder, you can open it up and put a spacer in to limit movement

if it's a welded cylinder, you can put a short peice of tubing around the shaft

you could also get a 6" throw ram and mount it to a point of your high-steer arm that only moves 6 inches. in this case you would probably want to step up to a larger bore because the movement of the ram would be slower than the movement of the tie-rod. 2x6 rams are dirt cheap and plentiful.

 

[Goatman]

I like the rod ends, and the expense is minimal. Probably the best, and easiest, and quickest, is to order the ram and kit from West Texas or RockLogic. Sometimes trying to save a couple of bucks burns more time than it's worth.

I don't have the option of going directly to the hy-steer arms. The springs and perches, and the track bar mount on the pass side are all in the way. I'd have a problem with clearing the track bar and mount, too, which is very close to the tie rod on the drivers side. I also need to keep the ram protected by the tie rod. Matt's setup is nicely done, but I'd trash the ram in short order in the terrain I wheel in, and with my "drive by brail" driving style.

I figure I can mount the ram to the side of the axle end track bar mount, under the track bar and directly behind the tie rod. It would be a tight fit, but there's just enough room.