Obama's Policy-Agree with me or else?

[winkosmosis]

When did we become a democracy?

I could have sworn that America was founded a REPUBLIC...

:eyes:

A republic is a representative democracy. Shouldn't being a republic mean you should support whatever the president and Congress do since they're elected officials? :dunno:

The whole "we're a republic not a democracy" thing is kind of a myth

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

In political theory, democracy describes a small number of related forms of government and also a political philosophy. Even though there is no specific, universally accepted definition of 'democracy',[4] there are two principles that any definition of democracy includes. The first principle is that all citizens, not invested with the power to govern, have equal access to power and the second that all citizens enjoy legitimized freedoms and liberties. [5][6]
There are several varieties of democracy, some of which provide better representation and more freedoms for their citizens than others.[7][8] However, if any democracy is not carefully legislated to avoid an uneven distribution of political power with balances, such as the separation of powers, then a branch of the system of rule could accumulate power and become harmful to the democracy itself.[9][10][11] The "majority rule" is often described as a characteristic feature of democracy, but without responsible government it is possible for the rights of a minority to be abused by the "tyranny of the majority". An essential process in representative democracies are competitive elections, that are fair both substantively[12] and procedurally.[13] Furthermore, freedom of political expression, freedom of speech and freedom of the press are essential so that citizens are informed and able to vote in their personal interests.[14][15]

 

[winkosmosis]

Yes. I pay a percentage of my premium, they pick up the rest. I also have a pre-tax fund that I bank money in to cover stuff like my kids braces, etc. that aren't covered under the plan.

This will ALL go away under Obama's plan.

Why do you think it will go away with Obama's plan? How does a public option make you lose your insurance? Did someone lie and tell you that we're switching to single payer insurance?


Let me get to my point... OK you have your insurance that you pay for through your employer, and I guess you like it well enough.

What happens if your kid is diagnosed with cancer, then you get laid off the next month? You can continue paying for your insurance for 18 months with COBRA, and the stimulus includes a 75% subsidy.... But then what happens at month 19 when your kid is still getting treatment?

 

[winkosmosis]

I fail to see your point. Who is "we"? Progressives? (BTW, Progressive is PC for Socialist....do your homework)

I'm not a Progressive. I'm a liberal and a Democrat. I can't stand the people who call themselves Progressives.

This isnt' a Dem or Rep thing, our Government has become a Machine. The Will of the People is being ignored, as though we exist to support the Machine, instead of the opposite.

Don't be so narrow-minded. My post was meant as a wakeup call to folks who think we still live in a Democracy......our Government is straying so far from it's origins, we are becoming more Socialist every day. Socialist countries by in large, are controlled by a Dictator....and their people are
not FREE!

All the fearmongering about socialism seems to be based on socialistic democracies in Europe. It's not that they're socialist and we're not. All developed nations are a mix of socialism and capitalism, and we're only slightly less so than Europe, and only in some areas. For example the socialistic sector of our economy based on military production is much larger.

Obama's core philosophies are based on Socialism, yet "we" still thought it would be a great idea to elect the guy to office? I guess you assumed that none of his core philosophies would effect his performance?

Obama's core philosophies are based on socialism? Are you talking about the same Obama, the guy got rich by selling his books on the free market?
You don't think it's capitalistic when the stimulus uses private contractors? How about 40% of the stimulus being tax cuts?

For more insight on your President and his staff , please read the links posted on this thread.

http://naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=999442&page=2

Fearmongering.. and Lyndon Larouche. Do you have any idea how crazy Lyndon is? I had a friend who was a member of his cultish organization.

Think about what you really want, this isn't just about healthcare reform.

Would your rather have your God-given rights and Freedoms, as provided by the US Constitution.... or a goverment handout to cover your every want and need, at the expense of your Freedom.

This is what's at stake.

Can you explain how a social program comes at the expense of freedom? Do you know any senior citizens who have opted out of government insurance (Medicare) to be more free? You'd think old, inform people would be jumping at the chance to try to buy insurance on the free market, to avoid this supposed government oppression....

I argue that a safety not to keep you from falling into destitution makes you more free, not less. There's would be nothing free about being a 70 year old granny, without Medicare, who is unprofitable to insure and facing hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of medical bills.

 

[AL BUNDY]

How are you going to pay for it?

 

[XJEEPER]

I'm not a Progressive. I'm a liberal and a Democrat. I can't stand the people who call themselves Progressives.

Yet, you embrace and emulate their agendas..........

All the fearmongering about socialism seems to be based on socialistic democracies in Europe. It's not that they're socialist and we're not. All developed nations are a mix of socialism and capitalism, and we're only slightly less so than Europe, and only in some areas. For example the socialistic sector of our economy based on military production is much larger.

Capitolism and Socialism cannot co-exist. Socialism does not happen overnight, we've been migrating in that direction for decades.

Obama's core philosophies are based on socialism? Yes.

Are you talking about the same Obama, the guy got rich by selling his books on the free market?

You can't be serious......you're saying Obama can't be a Socialist, because he once turned a profit? Did you vote for Obama because you thought it would be cool to tell your grandkids that you helped elect the first US Black President, or because you really know what he represents? Honestly ask yourself......"Self, is this what really I thought I was getting when I voted for Obama?"
http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/03/what_is_marxism.html

You don't think it's capitalistic when the stimulus uses private contractors?

The stimulus program is redistribution of wealth, so is CARS and TARP.....BTW, our Government can't give just give money to private contractors, unless it first takes the money from someone else.

Capitolism is based on survival of the fittests, not propping up the incompetant and irresponsible businesses, via taxpayer funds.

How about 40% of the stimulus being tax cuts? Please provide factual data to validate this claim.

Fearmongering.. and Lyndon Larouche. Do you have any idea how crazy Lyndon is? I had a friend who was a member of his cultish organization.
I have a friend who partied until he was stupid and is now on Welfare. Socialized Welfare is a crime against humanity. People need to take responsibility for their actions and be held accountable for them.

Can you explain how a social program comes at the expense of freedom?

Taking money from me to give to someone else, under the guise of "societal improvement".....is it really that hard to understand? I willing give thousands of dollars a year in charitable contributions. The Government taking it from me and applying it to whatever program they see fit is not the same, especially when I don't agree with their programs. 1st Amendment ring a bell here?

Do you know any senior citizens who have opted out of government insurance (Medicare) to be more free?

Haven't read HB3200, have you? I'm still wondering when we're going to see this Healthcare Reform Plan that Obama constantly is referring to? He's yet to produce one. Is HB3200 his plan, or not? If it is, Obama is either a liar or an idoit, because he keeps making statements about his plan that contradict what is in HB3200.

You'd think old, inform people would be jumping at the chance to try to buy insurance on the free market, to avoid this supposed government oppression....um, the US Government currently restricts this option.

I argue that a safety not to keep you from falling into destitution makes you more free, not less.

Um, what was that term you had for this......oh, "fear-mongering".

A poor desision made swiftly will too often result in a worse outcome, than simply doing nothing.

There's would be nothing free about being a 70 year old granny, without Medicare, who is unprofitable to insure and facing hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of medical bills.

Seniors will lose many existing Medicare benefits under HB3200.
Perhaps you should actually read HB3200 and reconsider this post, especially using Senior Healthcare as your basis of making a point.

Know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

[winkosmosis]

There is no finalized HB3200. Who gets to pick what proposed ammendments get argued over on forums, you? Can you show where seniors will lose benefits? Are you talking about the deal with drug companies to reduce cost? Or the proposed cuts to the wasteful "let's give a middleman free money" Medicare Advantage?


With all this hyperbole and fearmongering, you are neglecting the fact that elderly people simply would not be able to get individual insurance in a free market. They wouldn't be profitable to private insurance companies unless the premiums were astronomical. That's why we the taxpayers pay for Medicare, to subsidize insurance for people who wouldn't otherwise be able to buy it.

42% of the stimulus is tax cuts http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE51600G20090207

 

[AL BUNDY]

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Democratic and Republican senators are close to agreement on a $780 billion (528 billion pound) economic stimulus package that would include 42 percent tax cuts and 58 percent new government spending, Democratic Senator John Kerry said on Friday."

That's your source of information?

 

[XJEEPER]

Since you brought healthcare into this thread, I could just link you to the Obamacare thread, but because I'm nice and want you to find clarity on this matter, I'll address your questions here as best I can.

Why do you think it will go away with Obama's plan?
In light of the fact that President Obama has yet to produce a plan that he frequently references, we'll use HR3200 for reference to address your questions.


How does a public option make you lose your insurance?

If you have a link to this "Public Option" that you refer to,
please document where this is located so I can read it. Futhermore, the way HR3200 is written, any existing private insurance would soon be elimintated due to goverment mandates and restrictions of care. HR3200 is written to eliminate competition by private HC providers.


Here's what is contained in HR3200:

• Sec. 113, Pg. 21-22 of the Health Care (HC) Bill MANDATES a government audit of the books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self-insure in order to “ensure that the law does not provide incentives for small and mid-size employers to self-insure”!

• Sec. 122, Pg. 29, Lines 4-16 - YOUR HEALTH CARE WILL BE RATIONED!

• Sec. 123, Pg. 30 - THERE WILL BE A GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE deciding what treatments and benefits you get.

• Sec. 142, Pg. 42 - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your benefits for you. You have no choice!

• Sec. 201, Pg. 72, Lines 8-14 - Government is creating an HC Exchange to bring private plans under government control.

Did someone lie and tell you that we're switching to single payer insurance?

Nope, I read it myself in HR3200.

• Sec. 203, Pg. 84 - Government mandates ALL benefit packages for private Health Care plans in the exchange.

• Sec. 203, Pg. 85, Line 7 - Specifications of benefit levels for plans means that the government will define your HC plan and has the ability to ration your health care!

• Sec. 312, Pg. 145, Lines 15-17 - Employers MUST auto-enroll employees into public option plan.

• Sec. 1233, Pg. 425, Lines 4-12 - Government mandates Advance (Death) Care Planning consultation. Think Senior Citizens and end of life. END-OF-LIFE COUNSELING. SOME IN THE ADMINISTRATION HAVE ALREADY DISCUSSED RATIONING HEALTH CARE FOR THE ELDERLY.

• Sec. 1233, Pg. 425, Lines 17-19 - Government WILL instruct and consult regarding living wills and durable powers of attorney. Mandatory end-of-life planning!

• Sec. 1233, Pg. 425-426, Lines 22-25, 1-3 - Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.

• Sec. 1233, Pg. 427, Lines 15-24 - Government mandates program for orders for life-sustaining treatment (i.e. end of life). The government has a say in how your life ends.

Let me get to my point... OK you have your insurance that you pay for through your employer, and I guess you like it well enough.

What happens if your kid is diagnosed with cancer, then you get laid off the next month? You can continue paying for your insurance for 18 months with COBRA, and the stimulus includes a 75% subsidy.... But then what happens at month 19 when your kid is still getting treatment?

According to Obama's top Advisor on Healthcare, Ezekiel Emanual, children have a lower overall societal benefit value than adults in the 18-50 yr range, because they haven't lived long enough to contribute to society (pay taxes=Social Contribution), so depending on the age of the child that has cancer, they may not qualify for treatment, if someone in the 18-50 range needs the same treatment at that time.
Sadly enough, my kid wouldn't likely have an option for timely cancer treatment, under HR3200.

• Sec. 1442, Pg. 623, Lines 5-10 - “Quality” measures shall be designed to assess outcomes and functional status of patients.

• Sec. 1442, Pg. 623, Lines 15-17 - “Quality” measures shall be designed to profile you, including race, age, gender, place of residence, etc.

 

[tbburg]

Do you know any senior citizens who have opted out of government insurance (Medicare) to be more free? You'd think old, inform people would be jumping at the chance to try to buy insurance on the free market, to avoid this supposed government oppression....

Well, I can only think of one small group of senior citizens that "opted out" of Medicare/Medicade.

Retirees from Congress. I believe they're also exempting themselves from their health care "reform" too.

Looking forward to how well the system they are specifically NOT going to use, will work for the rest of us.

 

[XJEEPER]

Here's how it's done in the Obama camp, if you don't agree with us then we threaten your compensation and career........anyone else see a pattern here?

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/08/house_dems_go_after_insurers_f.html

Waxman and Stupak better practice some CYA before heading down this road, because their employers (We the People) are closely watching THEM.....

Irony here is, the Health Care industry pumped millions of $$$$ into Obama's election campaign, overall 73% of contributions to Democrats. Now they're biting both the hands that fed them......

http://www.redstate.com/streiff/2009/08/19/henry-waxman-goes-ballistic-on-health-insurers/