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No rear brakes

ajporter03

NAXJA Forum User
Location
North Logan, UT
My back brakes don't work hardly at all. I didn't find this out until I was driving on a really slick road one day. I hit the brakes hard and the ABS went crazy, but it didn't seem like I was slowing down at all. I pulled the fuse for the ABS system and had somebody watch as I hit the brakes hard on a patch of ice. The front tires locked right up, but the back ones kept spinning. So I set out to find out the problem. I pulled my brake drums to inspect. The shoes looked okay, but all of the brake hardware looked rusted an correded really bad. So I bought new shoes and hardware kit and had at it. It took a while, but I got it done and adjusted. Everything seemed to be working fine. With the back end in the air, I could get the tires going and they would come to an immediate stop when I hit the pedal. I hit the road again, but still the same problem. I double checked everying, it all looked good. I bleed the whole brake system, flushed out all the old fluid. Still nothing. I don't know what to do. The brake pedal feels fine. The front brakes are working great, but not a whole lot is happening out back. I looked into a new proportioning valve, but the dealer wants over $200 up front before ordering the part. And it is on a no return policy. Any new ideas would be appreciated.

93 XJ 4.0 ABS Auto
 
Sounds like everything bleeds out ok. When you have someone push on the brake pedal, does the brake fluid squirt out of the wheel cylinders or just dripple out? If it dribbles, you may have a clog somewhere or lost pressure throught the MC or prop. valve. Check out the lines for pinches or what not. Maybe the seal for the plunger in the MC went byebye. Could also be the prop. valve like you said. I ain't too brake smart, but sounds like you have a pressure problem. Also, have you adjusted the shoes correctly?

Im not sure on Jeeps, but on the '89 Ford F350 I have, it has ABS for the rear only. It keeps them from locking up, and having the rear end go all over the road when you slam on the brakes.

Also the front brakes have more stopping power than the rears. They do more of the braking than the rear.
 
When I bled my brakes I had a clear hose over the bleeder valve. So I don't know if it would actually squirt, but a lot would come out when I would open the valve. It seemed like it had good pressure. But I could be wrong.

I know that the front brakes have a lot more to do than the rear brakes, but I thought that when I was on ice and got after the brakes really hard that all 4 tires would lock up.
 
I didn't change the rear wheel cylinders. But I have lifted the back end of the Jeep with a fork lift, got the rear wheel going about 20mph and hit the brakes. Both wheels stopped right away. It is almost like everything I try points to my rear brakes working okay. But in the real world, they don't seem to do anything.
 
the whole purpose of the prop valve is to allow the fronts to lock before the rears to keep ya from swapping ends in an emergency doesn't seem so odd that the front's lock but the rears don't. make sure everythign is adjusted proper
 
bj-666 said:
the whole purpose of the prop valve is to allow the fronts to lock before the rears to keep ya from swapping ends in an emergency doesn't seem so odd that the front's lock but the rears don't. make sure everythign is adjusted proper

I thought you didn't want the front brakes to lock so you can have still steer the vehicle.
 
I might have not explained myself good enough. The back brakes wont even lock up on ice. Cold hard solid ice. It doesn't take that much braking power to stop a wheel on really slick ice. Mine don't lock up. I have never driven any other vehicle that I couldn't get all 4 tires to lock up under heavy braking on really slick ice covered roads. On a dry road, I wouldn't want the rear tires, or the front ones for that matter to lock up. But it has been since the snow has come that I have realized that the back brakes aren't working like they should.

I have some new insight tonight, though. Mostly because it just snowed and the roads are really slick. I noticed that after my jeep has sat for a half an hour or longer since it was driven last, that for the first 2 maybe three stops the brakes work normal. I can feel that all 4 tires lock up. I start to slide sideways. I can also hear the rear brake shoes rubbing against the drums. After the 2nd or 3rd stop, no rear brakes. I am thinking that this has to have something to do with the master cylinder or the prop. valve. I just need some ideas on what to check to try and narrow down the problem so I can fix it. I am not affraid to dig in and go for it, but I have thrown a lot of money at stuff that wasn't broken in the past. And I always feel really stupid for doing it.
 
Mine are the same way. I have found that i have to adjust the rear brakes about once a week to the point were you can hardly turn the rear wheels by hand. That really helps but not for very long. As for them working for a couple of stops after it has been sitting in a moist enviroment, that is because they build up rust rather quickly and that creates alot of friction in the drums. Mine will actually lock up with very little brake pedal pressure for the first couple of stops. Older XJ brakes just suck.
 
sappersly said:
I thought you didn't want the front brakes to lock so you can have still steer the vehicle.

this is why abs came out. with traditional brakes u use the pump and pray method stomp on the brakes, let off, stomp, let off. this allows ya to keep steering. the rear brake thing keeps ya tracking straight when ya mash down on the pedal.


u say ya can lock up the brakes no prob in the air but not at all on the road.
put the back, back up in the air press the brakes and hit the gass (2wd) , can you hold it back?
 
I'm not sure how testing your brakes for lockup on solid ice could give you any useful information to aid in troubleshooting. It does seem odd, however, that the fronts lock and the rears don't. Drum brakes usually lock easier than discs. But skidding is not the same as stopping so lockup is undesirable at any time, and maybe (however unlikely) you have something going on up front that is making them lock up too easily.

I think I heard somewhere the typical braking distribution on an XJ is around 60F/40R. Probably wouldn't take much effort to stop free wheels off the ground no matter what shape the rear brakes were in, so I'd take another hard look at the rear brakes and see what's wrong. A couple possibilities:

First, cleanliness is next to godliness.

Wheel cylinders. You say you didn't change them. If only one piston in a wheel cylinder is working it could stop a free wheel pretty easy but won't necessarily actuate the self energizing brakes properly.

Brake shoes installed incorrectly. The shoe with the most (longer or thicker or both) lining should face the rear of the vehicle. In operation when moving forward, the leading shoe is pushed into the drum by the wheel cylinder push rod, and the drag on the drum tends to push that shoe into the adjuster/transfer bar, which pushes the trailing shoe up against the anchor pin and out against the drum, and that trailing shoe generates the lion's share of the stopping power. Leading & trailing shoes swapped will reduce braking power a lot.

Incorrect initial adjustment. Adjusting for drag after the drum is installed is imprecise. A parking brake that's been tightened up to compensate for wear can foul you up there, as can a lot of other things. At rest, the shoes should be firmly against the anchor pin up top, and fully engaged in the forked ends of the adjuster screw/transfer bar at the bottom. For initial setup, I like to use a BrakeBlok. It's a plastic pin exactly the same diameter as the anchor pin. Lay the shoes in the drum flat on the bench, insert the adjuster screw assembly, then put the brakeblok where the anchor pin would be at the top of the shoes. Turn the adjuster until the shoes are just free in the drum and it is set. Install everything on the backing plate without disturbing that initial setting you made on the adjuster screw and no further adjustment will be needed. This method is easier/faster/cheaper than a caliper. The BrakeBlok I have came from NAPA about 30 years ago. If you can't find one you could use a deep socket if you have one that is exactly the same diameter as the anchor pin.

Improperly installed hardware. For a quick visual, look at the flat area on the adjuster lever that engages the teeth on the star wheel. It should be perfectly horizontal (that is, exactly parallel with the adjuster screw). If it isn't, something is either out of place or worn out.

Bleeding. Everybody seems to have their own preferred method but there's nothing like a pressure bleeder. If you're like me and most folks you don't have one, so just do the best you can. When you are sure all the air is out do a couple more cycles to be double sure. Not sure how your ABS system will affect what you need to do there, some systems are transparent when inactive, others not and require special procedures.

Once everything is in order inside the wheels work back up the system. Maybe a line pinched tight, but that's a remote possibility. A hose that's visually OK could have a inner lining failure that effectively plugs it under pressure. Hoses are cheap and pressure cycles and flexing will wear them out.

I have never actually seen a failed proportioning valve, but I'm sure it could happen.

Master cylinder. A dead one should activate the pressure differential shuttle that turns on the warning light, but we're talking Jeeps here and the light may well not work. A cylinder that holds under heavy pressure but leaks down under light pressure is failing. A cast iron cylinder is cheap and easy to rebuild with a new cartridge kit and light honing. An aluminum one is best thrown away and replaced with a brand new one.

ABS I dunno. That is technology that wasn't around when I worked as an auto service pro. But any ABS system should fail to a straight through braking system as if it wasn't there. 4 wheel ABS is almost magical, rear only ABS, well, I'm not sure what the point is. But that said if I had it I would want it working properly, and if I didn't have the tools and information to fix it myself I'd take it somewhere that I knew could make it right.
 
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