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Military Hummers Don't Make The Cut

Gil BullyKatz said:
Para-Ordnance P-14's for everyone...!

I would've "settled" for an HK .45 tho...

:D

Yesssss.... and something in .30-378 to pop some melons from across the canyons.
 
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XTrmXJ said:
Garrentee Ive broken it... BTW Im a CC on the F-15, you cant beat it unless you have our F-22

What about that little plane the Navy drives... the FA-18... bet it'd smoke your Eagle!!!
 
Lawn Cher' said:
020507a_jdam_500.jpg

wet dream anyone?

I was thinking more along the lines of helicopters but... if you prefer stealthy ... on foot is better.
 
IH8RDS said:
Now your just talking crazy :wierd:
I don't know...tightest turning radius of any jet out there...BTW the Marine Corps flies the F/A-18 also. Turning radius is very important in a dog fight, the faster you can swing back around to get your nose pointed at em the better chance you have of shootin em...
 
Rocketman said:
What about that little plane the Navy drives... the FA-18... bet it'd smoke your Eagle!!!

Sorry - couldn't hear you. I had something crazy in my ear...

Speaking as a guy who's spent more time than he'd care to admit to on the ground - air superiority won't win a war. It will help - to be certain - but it won't win. I think it was Woody who said "Nothing says 'we like this place' like dropping a battalion of Rangers on it."

With that in mind, I still say the best plane in the inventory (my opinion, natch!) is the A-10. Damn thing does 400 knots between trees, and carries just over twice its own weight in ordnance. The titanium bathtub for the pilot isn't a bad idea - I'd love to nail one of those down in surplus and make the "ultimate" claw-foot bathtup out of the thing!

It's a pity it's being retired - while stealth is nice and all that, how much of a beating can most of these stealth AC take?

Note that we have NEVER lost an A-10 in combat - all losses were due to some sort of "experiment" or another (I can think of a couple cases where they were trying out a new propellant for the GAU-8A, and it killed the turbofans...) I seem to want to recall that 735 or so were made, 8 or 9 lost, and one decommissioned (the two-seater at Wright-Patt - they decided that they couldn't hold W&B with the extended bathtub.)

Stealth? The A-10 don't want it, and don't need it. Hell - the A-10 version of "stealth" is called "ground clutter" - try and find it!

As far as sidearms go, the M92 is a mistake. Should have stuck with M1911/1991 and HK Mk23 - both better pistols, and so what if NATO wanted to go to the 9mm? I'm all in favour of simplified logistics, but let's simplify in a useful direction - 9mm is far from being the attention-getter a military sidearm should be. It should be borne in mind that the .45ACP was originally selected over the .38 Special simply because it was felt that the .38 was not a sufficient manstopper for military purposes (about the time of the Phillipine Insurrection, I believe) and it was agreed that we needed something that got the target's attention a little more efficiently.

The 9mm is not even the equal of the .38 Special, but quite a few of the NATO member countries think that a .32 Auto is enough for police use (I shan't get into my feelings on armed police - that's another topic!) and that the 9mm is enough. WRONG!

Also, while a "double-stack" is nice for some people, there are quite a few (like me,) who have these short, stubby little fingers that just don't get a good wrap on the double-stack mag - but the single-stack .45 just grows out of my fist, and it ain't coming out. The MK Mk23, oddly enough, worked fairly well - double-stack and all.

For those that think the double stack is workable, get a Para widebody - which takes the same upper half as the 1911/1991 (there's that simplified logistic train again!) and while magazine compatibility may be at issue, it's possible to strip single-stacks to feed double-stacks, and vice versa. After all, I've always felt better with 7+1 of .45ACP than I did with 17+1 of 9mm - and magazine changes should be done by pure muscle memory anyhow.

M16/M14/M1? There's an interesting debate - they are all different platforms with different uses. I'd not want an M16 in the jungle - there's a little phenom called "foliage deflection" that's been long known to screw things up. That's why the M14 was so highly regarded - it took a tree to deflect the .308, not a leaf.

However, the M16 does well in open areas - like the desert. It also likes to be kept dry - so it will do better in the desert (sand, dust) than the M1 or M14 - both of those like to be kept well-oiled.

Of course, the M16 does enjoy a significant advantage over its predecessors - modular upgrades! The M16 platform, with minor changes (nearly all of which are in the upper half, and can therefore be done in seconds,) can now handle a number of calibres - the .22 rimfire family, .223, .221, .222, .300 Whisper, 7.62x39 ("Commie Thirty" or "Light Thirty," depending on who you talk to,) .50AE, .50 Beowulf - and that's just the stuff right off the top of my head. Change the upper and grab different mags, and you've got a different rifle.

Another good "M16" idea that didn't work (and Heaven alone knows why!) is the old Colt Light Machine Gun (LMG.) Based upon the original M16, the LMG featured a slightly stronger recoil buffer (about a 500rpm cyclic rate, but better longevity,) a stronger-built top end (with more cooling area than you'd find on the M16,) and the ability to feed from belts or magazines.

Moreover, since both sights were on the upper half, you simply sighted in all your uppers before you went out on extended patrol, and you didn't worry about it when you changed uppers for whatever reason (the M60 had the fixed sight on the barrel and the movable on the receiver - what the Hell were they smoking? Where can I get some?)

The LMG could also be suppressed (feature that - a suppressed squad auto!) and shared quite a few internals with the M16 (which allowed unit-level cannibalism to keep the thing going.) Y'ask me, the only thing that was really done "wrong" on the LMG was to make it a bottom-ejector, but the LMG was designed by Eugene Stoner, not John Browning. Still, Stoner did have his head screwed on good and straight when he did pretty much all of his designing - the initial problems were due to misunderstanding the maintenance changes required at the individual level.

Dammit - there I go again. "But I digress..."

5-90
 
Ditto on the ergonomics of a double vs single stack 5-90...

Prolly why I prefer a Browning Hi-Power over a M92...

I guess the M16 was a poor replacement for a "battle rifle"...

better to have a G3 or a Galil...

Too bad about the Stoner tho... great idea and execution... at least the 'nam era UDT/SEAL teams got to use it...

I like the M4 for urban use tho... Especially because of it's modular concept...

oh and yeah...

Nothing beats a Warthog when you're a groundpounder asking for support...

Altho a C-130 Spooky comes in a close second!
 
Oh yeah - the Stoner 63! Oh, what fun...

The BHP is a little easier to handle than the M92 for me - but not by much. My travelling companion of choice is still going to be the M1911/1991, but the Mk23 runs a close second (I was pleasantly surprised by the grip on that thing...)

I am also forced to admit that my old unit still uses the M1911 & Mk23 - which we refused to do when they tried to switch us over to that aluminum-framed abortion. Beretta should stick to shotguns.

Also, note that I didn't say the M16 was a "poor replacement" for anything - it's useful in its element (open terrain, preferably with expanding or frangible pills.) There are just places I wouldn't use the thing - because it would be like trying to turn a bolt with a hammer - wrong tool for the job. After all, you don't mash potatoes with a mouse (unless you're really strange or really honked off...)

No, the M16 definitely has its place. Command doesn't realise, however, that that place is not "everywhere." I believe in simplifying logistics - I also believe in using the right tool for the job. If that means I have to keep four different rifles in inventory (say, M4/M16/M14/M1) and make sure everyone's trained up on them, so be it. A soldier should be trained up on any firearm he's likely to encounter anyhow. After all, there's a reason that I not only ordered men to practise to the tune of 1500 rounds (minimum!) per day, but to do so with any weapon you could find (or that was collecting dust in the back of the armoury.) Amazing how good you can get with just a little practise...

Meanwhile, the M92 is marginally suited for use as an issue paperweight, and doesn't have the mass to make a good doorstop. Dunno why they think it's a useful sidearm...

I hear ya on the Spooky (AC-130) - or the old "Puff the Magic Dragon." Something about the ability to saturate a football field by square inches, in about three seconds, just sounds so damn good... It's about as much fun as tossing three Volkswagens into a football field from 25 miles away, using those 16"/50-calibre rifles on Navy battlewagons...

5-90
 
5-90 said:
If I afford a personal plane that would be it. Unarmed of course, I wonder if the ATF would let you register the 20mm gun?


5-90 said:
As far as sidearms go, the M92 is a mistake.
Read in one of the mags that Sig would have got it except the Berrta was cheaper. Sig claims it supplies Seals, Ranger, Border Patrol, Coast Guard, and several other agencies.

5-90 said:
M16/M14/M1? There's an interesting debate - they are all different platforms with different uses.
I always thought the G36 and P550 platforms were a better design overall. Isn't the new one called the XM28 or something?
 
R0 Mhlitry Hummts Don' Maje Td Cut

Um,phat's a 30mm, not a 20mm. DEFINITELY a "destructive device "
You're probably thinking of the littleRulcan - this is the GAU-8/A Avenger we're talking about here - one serious piece of hardware. Peah - ` I hit the lott`r and I cotld bdqualify for a pilot's ticket, I'd get me an A-10. Imagine calling, say, Midway Tower hd wanting to b"ing tha4(thing h under @/A...

Sig probably would have gotten it, and Beretta definitely is[/H] c`aper. @orolla"| tn Muphy&s Lt - never fnrge that iCpue weapons are made by the lowest bidder.

My primary complaint is that ther war nodogical, logist eal, orhilhtar nedd t replace the thing in the first place. Complaints about felt recoil? py rhoo`ng a 1 gafe aD arl's `ngth l`e a pirol a fr times, and you'll shut up.

Let's see, based upon my (essentially imperfect) reball .

S@Ls maiN`y fet D`e HK M 43 as iCpue, but are (quite properly) trained to work with pretty much anything.

Rangers usually carry whatever they want - and that turns out to be the M1911/1991, Mk23, and some of the bigger Sig-Sauers.

Border Patrol? Even their own senior people have admitted to their actions being a "flow control" rather than a "border stopper" - I wasn't sure they even got sidearms anymore! Yeah - I could see them with Sigs as well.

Coast Guard? I know we've got a few Coasties on here - anyone want to sound off? I'd be mildly surprised if they got anything other than the M92 - isn't there still a tie to the Department of the Navy with you guys? Not as strong as the Marines - but something, I think...

Police agencies in general would better serve the public these days if they were issued wrist rockets rather than sidearms. I'm sure there are still a few good cops out there, but I've seen little to impress me lately. If we have any cops here - I'm sorry guys, but not by much. You might want to take your brothers out for remedial training...

I'll have to check on the new platforms - although I think the XM28 is the new M16/M4 variant firing the new 6.xm/m SPC - the upsized 5.56 (and not a bad idea...) Most of my research into current weapons platforms has been following "Future Warrior" and "Objective Force Warrior" - both of which are a little tech-happy for my liking. Last time I checked, winning a war essentially boiled down to the ability of one man to look another man in the eye - and kill him. That's not a function of techno-goodies - that's a mindset (and one that we're losing. Americans, by and large, just aren't into "sacrifice" anymore, and can't stomach the idea of killing. Maybe school kids should get a tour of the local abbatoir, just so they understand where food comes from...)

So let's see - G36 - isn't that the new H&K that's supposed to be going into the OICW? I've looked into the OICW, and that thing just doesn't do it for me. Gimme a M4 SOPMOD kit any day over that thing - not as many batteries.

P550 - got a link? I don't know enough about it to render an intelligent opinion (and I really hope it's not another 'Star Wars' rifle - I've seen quite enough of those. I'd sooner field the Voere "caseless" rifle than something that depends on electronics to work - and I'm still not sold on Voere's idea...)

Just bear with me - I'm both an old warhorse and a Cold Warrior - and it's taking time to adapt. Helps if I see something worth adapting to.

5-90
 
I think my weapon of choice is STILL the HK MP5A3. It's light, takes a beating, easy to clean. For serious firepower... cant beat a 60.
 
BlackSport96 said:
I don't know...tightest turning radius of any jet out there...


There is/was the F16XL, and that crazy-hot bumblebee A10 (that got a mention).

The environment is a concern, with debris a problem for the aircraft as well as ground vehicles. I understand one of the other things Afghans learned from the Russian occupation was that heavy vehicles do not cross weakened bridges very well (providing ambush sites) regardless of road width. They tell me it's not a place occupied with citizens who like to trade with strangers.

Thanks for the time spent over there, it may not get the media attention but it is at the forefront of change for world politics (the Afghan government may not be perfect, but they have shown that democratic change can happen in a hostile political environment).
 
5-90 said:
Last time I checked, winning a war essentially boiled down to the ability of one man to look another man in the eye - and kill him. That's not a function of techno-goodies - that's a mindset (and one that we're losing. Americans, by and large, just aren't into "sacrifice" anymore, and can't stomach the idea of killing. Maybe school kids should get a tour of the local abbatoir, just so they understand where food comes from...)


5-90

A little off topic but speaking of "sacrifice".
The History Channel has been showing a lot of WWII shows lately. D day(and X day) type stuff, lots of shows on the different campaigns in the Pacific and Europe. Talk about sacrifice, that was it. I had no idea how many people lost their lives in some of those battles and I thought I was up on World history.
Rhetorical questions but...
What is "freedom" worth?
Todays' people from the USA, would they be willing to fight for it?
 
Rocketman said:
I think my weapon of choice is STILL the HK MP5A3. It's light, takes a beating, easy to clean. For serious firepower... cant beat a 60.

Sure you can - get something that works consistently! The M60 is prone to jams, stoppages, failures to feed/extract, and the damn scears aren't even heat-treated properly!

The MP5 is a good little squirtgun, but for something heavier I'll take an M1919, M1918-series, LMG, Stoner 63, M249/Minimi, M240, or even a hand-crank Gatling! The best use for an M60 - if you don't have someone go through it and fix everything - is as either a museum piece, doorstop, or ersatz anchor. It's one of a short list of firearms that I'd actually TAKE an M92 over - but I'd still sooner have a hundred-year-old Sharps over either one.

If you get a chance, I highly suggest trying out the MP5K-PDW/SD someday, loads of fun in a small package. And, I think coming out with the MP10 (MP5 in 10mm Auto) is only making the thing more useful (I've already given my opinion of the 9m/m - and that applies to nearly all of its various incarnations. I'd sooner be shot with a 9m/m than a .22LR - anyone care to guess why?)

5-90
 
The 60's a weightlifter...

Big and impressive looking but not much beyond that...

Although the Marine variant is lighter and a tiny bit more reliable...

I'd take an MG 42 if we're picking classical vs modern....

They're easy to build too!

:D
 
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