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Low octane in high compression engines?

Milford Cubicle II

NAXJA Forum User
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Out there.
I've noticed in the last few years that a lot of cars now days are running ridiculously high (for a grocery getter, in some cases) compression ratios but burn 87 octane. And a lot of the sports cars are running really high compression ratios and sometimes even with boost and still getting by with either pump gas or even regular 87 octane.

The new Mustang 5.0 for example is 11:1 CR and runs on 87. I have a Lincoln LS with the Jaguar v-8 that is around 10.75:1 and I'm stuck with 91 and even then I often get an annoying pre-detonation sound. I love the car and get great MPG's (almost 30mpg highway) for a sports sedan with a v-8 but I'm jealous of not having to fill up on premium!

I know there are a lot of factors that effect an engine's resistance to detonation, with CR being probably the biggest single factor, but what else is it that allows a lot of new engines to get away with such high CR's on such low octane?
 
The shape of the combustion chamber is configured to avoid pre-detonation. Also there is much better control over timing and air/fuel ratio. Auto-throttle also makes a big difference.
 
Also there is much better control over timing and air/fuel ratio. Auto-throttle also makes a big difference.

this.

Some newer cars even have a knock sensor for each individual cylinder, and with coil on plug can pull timing for each cylinder.

fuel injection makes it all possible.
 
They've also made some pretty major advances in lean-burn tech. It's the march of progress.
 
My 4.7L Jeep stroker is running 10.4:1 compression and due to getting the quench height adjusted correctly, I run the cheapest pump gas and get no ping. I also get 21 mpg on the freeway.
 
Low comp is just from a lack of technology. Low comp engines play it on the safe side of ping and detonations at the expense of power and efficiency. High comp ones have all the bells and whistles that others mentioned above to eliminate ping etc.
 
Also, I think most of the newer engines that are meant for 87 even with high octane are running direct injection. Makes for cooler combustion chamber temps and helps avoid preignition.

That and most newer engines that call for premium can be run on lower but they pull the timing and make less power. Toyota 4.0 comes to mind. Until like 2010ish (not sure the exact year) they took premium, they've recently been dropped to regular without any penalty though.
 
X2 on the direct injection. All that gets compressed is air, not the more volatile air/fuel mixture. Since straight air won't ping or pre-ignite, a compression ratio as high as the engine itself can withstand can be used, and the fuel can be added at the precise moment, hopefully after the moment when a regular engine would have pinged. And, as Darky has suggested, the cooling effect of an expanding charge of compressed fuel can help avoid another source of the pings, high temps. It would be cool to see them take compression ratios up toward the realm of diesels, but just low enough to still need a spark plug.
 
Very good points about the direct injection, that makes a lot of sense.

It's about half curiosity and half planning for a stroker build to see if there's anything I can incorporate into it.

I'm not at all interested in adding more electronics and/or components to the 4.0, one of it's greatest strengths is its reliability and I'd hate to ruin that with a plethora of sensors and such. But if there are some simple design techniques that I could incorporate, then why not?

I wonder about the long term reliability/durability of stuff like direct injection. Especially on applications with so much compression and HP. I guess time will tell :dunno:
 
I wonder about the long term reliability/durability of stuff like direct injection. Especially on applications with so much compression and HP. I guess time will tell :dunno:

If the stressed parts of the engine are done right, no reason they couldn't see 200-330k, much like a diesel. But, think back to late '70s/early '80s, GM's passenger car diesels. Real keepers!
 
IIRC my quench height is .052"

I have over 100k miles on my stroker.

That's a pretty safe value. Is that with a zero-deck?

So, upon reading a Road & Track article, I came across a couple interesting tidbits about reducing knock. One thing they mentioned was the stroke to bore ratio having an effect on reducing knock. They said that an undersquare engine is less prone to knock due to less combustion chamber surface area, which reduces heat loss through the head as well as a faster combustion. But I would have thought that a larger combustion chamber surface area would conduct more heat from the combustion chamber (similar to how "cold" spark plugs work), thus reducing combustion chamber temperatures as well as knock. But the article is saying that a smaller combustion chamber's lesser surface area absorbs less heat from combustion in the first place (also due to a faster combustion) and results in an even cooler, more knock resistant combustion chamber. Makes sense.

Then I realized something about my XJ. My exhaust is extremely cool. To the point that you can easily grab the tailpipe without burning your hand. Meanwhile, you'll melt your soul if you even think about touching anywhere near the head. Which is why so many of us have heat soak issues along with cowl and/or hood vents. This leads me to believe that there is a LOT of heat being wasted through the combustion chamber. Yet the 4.0 is very undersquare. It's a curious thing. Ideally, 90+% of the gasoline we burn in the 4.0 will be converted to kinetic energy rather than heat, but I know that that's not going to happen without basically, a redesign of the 4.0. However, there's obviously room for improvement.

I wonder if one could use a higher compression ratio/more advanced timing in order to take advantage of the inherent reduction in knock by one of our strokers to come up with a more efficient engine. I guess my point is, those who are building very low compression strokers may be actually wasting potential efficiency. But then again, any engine that's not operating on the verge of knocking is wasting efficiency. This also explains another reason for diesel engines having such a long stroke compared to their bore along with having extremely high compression ratios :idea: So apparently, simply the mere "stroking" of the 4.0 will automatically help reduce knock. Just another reason so build a stroker! :yelclap: party1: This of course is in theory. In reality there may be things about the 4.0 that don't let it respond that well to a change in stroke to bore ratio. I'm sure there are others who can speak from experience on this point, such as:
My 4.7L Jeep stroker is running 10.4:1 compression and due to getting the quench height adjusted correctly, I run the cheapest pump gas and get no ping. I also get 21 mpg on the freeway.
:thumbup: Anyone else have any input?

What other properties of a cylinder head will reduce knock? I would imagine that a good polish would help, along with smoothing out any rough edges, obviously. Short of sodium cooling, I can't really think of anything else :dunno:

On a side note, Mazda's "SkyActiv" technology is actually pretty cool. It keeps the intake valve open through 20-30% of the compression stroke before closing, in order to reduce power consumption of the compression stroke. Yes, this results in a lower compression ratio and a less volumetrically efficient engine, but also increases its fuel efficiency. Less air = less fuel = smaller effective engine volume. The trick is - that in the day of variable valve timing, this Atkinson cycle can be "turned off" when more power is needed. The whole system is very similar in effect to a "multiple displacement system," except in my opinion, this is better executed.
 
Reguarding your question on "remapping" the timing. You could do it, but it would take a 100% standalone computer (Megasquirt) and alot of time getting it dialed in. Plus maybe a custom ground cam.

But I think it could be done.
 
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