Did I just kill my a/c compressor?

[langer1]

So did I seize a compressor bearing this morning? I just got this a/c system working again about a month ago, have been having a squeal problem that I thought was a loose belt, unknown how long it had been out of comission as it didn't work when I bought the Jeep last year.

I hate to give you the bad news, but that typical of a overcharged system and that will blow a compressor.

 

[IslanderOffRoad]

I hate to give you the bad news, but that typical of a overcharged system and that will blow a compressor.

Is that really BAD news? I mean if he overcharged it, its the mechanic's fault right? Hence his bad that I need a new compressor?

I seriously doubt it but I'm looking for a bright side.

 

[Shorty]

side note to this one.

i'd like to have use of the defroster until i can fix it, any way to make it so the a/c doesnt come on with the defroster?

Yup! Unplug the clutch and use the defrost-- might take a few extra seconds to defrost/defog as the air won't be as dehumidified, but will work fine.

--Shorty

 

[IslanderOffRoad]

Yup! Unplug the clutch and use the defrost-- might take a few extra seconds to defrost/defog as the air won't be as dehumidified, but will work fine.

--Shorty

how do i unplug the clutch?

 

[Shorty]

how do i unplug the clutch?

two wire plug just behind the pulley on the compressor-- pull it out and ziptie it out of the way of anything moving.:yelclap:

 

[IslanderOffRoad]

thanks!

 

[slingblade]

just as a heads up if you decide to replace the compressor on your own and you let the r134 in to the atmosphere there is a serious fine i know in va is about a 10 grand fine and i believe in cali its the same or higher so if someone catches you you could be out alot more. what you're suposta do is take to your a/c guy and have him decharge the system then you replace the compressor then take it back to him to fill it or have him put the vaccum on it and go to walmart or autozone and buy r134 and a gage then fill it your self

 

[darjevon]

If he did not replace the filter dryer with an R-134a dryer, then the R-12 desicant in the old dryer could have decomposed, gotten loose in the system and killed the compressor. I am told the old R-12 desicant is not compatible the new R-134a and the R-134a oil it uses.

There are lot of people making the switch over with out upgrading the dryers, but I think many of their compressors are self destructing within a year or so of the change due to the dryer desicant incompatability. It does not happen immediately.

I can tell you with certainty that this is not true - I have had a bunch of previous cars retrofitted without even replacing the damn o-rings and I never had the slightest problem.

 

[Fourxfour79]

Anyway I would just go to a junkyard and grab a low mile r12 compressor from an early Xj. If you have the patience, id recommend charging the system yourself - if you just get some gauges, hoses, oil, and refrigerant, and rent an electric vaccuum pump, you can do work that not only can you be confident in, but you get to keep the tools instead of just paying for someone else's labor.

Hey all. I'm having some compressor issues as well and have been following a couple of threads for a while as well as searching the archives. I've got a 99 and found that the bearings are shot. The a/c compressor pulley i noticed has the death wobble and grinding noise. So not to hijack the thread but I would like to hear someone elaborate on the above process, or give advice as to where to get a bearing kit and tool to replace the bearings. I have checked both autozone, advanced and Napa but havn't been able to find it. Should I check with an a/c specialist and will he be able to sell these kinds of parts? Either way I would appreciate it. Thanks for your help, Dan

 

[darjevon]

Compressor is attached by four very long bolts on top of the compressor, and the "manifold hose assembly" attached by one clamp bolt at the rear of the unit. Also, there is one simple electrical connector.

If you need info about how to charge and fill, post back, and I'll give you a link. I strongly recommend doing everything HVAC on your car yourself - I just have no trust left...

 

[scottmcneal]

take it to a shop, or but a compressor again if you over fill it, or you don't get the right amount of oil in it..Run some flush thru tooo, that R-12 will screw with it every time.. It does not mix..change your dryer or as they say filter, in a/c we call it a dryer

 

[Fourxfour79]

Compressor is attached by four very long bolts on top of the compressor, and the "manifold hose assembly" attached by one clamp bolt at the rear of the unit. Also, there is one simple electrical connector.

If you need info about how to charge and fill, post back, and I'll give you a link. I strongly recommend doing everything HVAC on your car yourself - I just have no trust left...

I'm a do it yourselfer too and hate paying someone an exorbinant amount of money to do anything I can do myself. I can remove the compressor but I read somewhere here that you can trun a couple of adjusting valves somewhere on the high and low sides that will slow the r134 so the amount that you loose is just over negligable. I'm a bit of an AC virgin and broke too. I'm trying to do this as inexpensively as possible seeing as how I just want to get rid of the payments and knocking over a bank or selling drugs to pay it off wouldn't agree with my carreer.

Some questions that I have are:
1)How can I get in touch with O'Rieley's who i hear has the AC bearings and where are they located.

2) I had that small plate off of the front of the compressor (the one secured with a couple of snap rings and a bolt) and could see the bearings (it looked like two rows of bearings that only went halfway around the shaft) but can't find the tool that I beleive that I should need to remove them. The tool I believe I need should have 2 little studs that will fit into two holes that should rotate a retainer out of place and allow me to remove the entire pulley from the shaft.

3) Would it be ok to just replace those bearings and what would the cost of it be. Could I use bearings from a 97 xj (I know, it's cheesy but I'm kinda desperate)

Thanks again, darjevon

 

[cjcargo]

If he did not replace the filter dryer with an R-134a dryer, then the R-12 desicant in the old dryer could have decomposed, gotten loose in the system and killed the compressor. I am told the old R-12 desicant is not compatible the new R-134a and the R-134a oil it uses.

There are lot of people making the switch over with out upgrading the dryers, but I think many of their compressors are self destructing within a year or so of the change due to the dryer desicant incompatability. It does not happen immediately.

This statement is not true. The oils used are differant. The old mineral based oil doesn't mix with the 134a refrigerant. The reason the drier is replace is for prevention. If the drier comes apart there is a screen to catch any particles. If it gets past that screen it will restrict the expansion valve. Here is some information from the EPA guidlines.
OEM Retrofits

Vehicle manufacturers (also known as original equipment manufacturers, or OEMs) have developed retrofit kits or guidelines for some of their models. These procedures were designed to provide the best level of performance with the new R-134a system. Although using these kits and guidelines will provide the greatest assurance that comparable a/c performance will be achieved, the costs of these OEM procedures will in many instances be relatively high. For example, while certain models can receive an OEM-warrantied retrofit for under $150, including labor, other OEM retrofits will run a customer over $650. Many car owners will not want to pay such high costs for a retrofit and may look to the aftermarket for a less expensive solution.

In addition, because the OEM retrofit kits and guidelines are generally only available for late 1980s and early 1990s models, an aftermarket retrofit may be the only option for many vehicle owners. Least-Cost Aftermarket Retrofit

Many car owners may express interest in receiving a least-cost retrofit. Procedures required for a least-cost retrofit are simple and do not require major component changes. Generally, the process calls for removal of the old refrigerant, installation of new fittings and a new label, and the addition of either a polyalkylene glycol (PAG) or polyol ester (POE or ester) lubricant as well as the R-134a refrigerant. For many vehicles, this simple, least-cost retrofit should provide the vehicle owner either with a/c performance comparable to the R-12 system performance or with a/c performance that, although slightly reduced, is still sufficient to satisfy the customer. A least-cost retrofit, however, may not provide a satisfactory solution for certain vehicles.
EPA Requirements for Retrofit

According to EPA regulations, the use of any alternative refrigerant to replace R-12 requires at a minimum that:

• unique service fittings be used in order to minimize the risk of cross-contamination of either the air- conditioning system or the service facility's recycling equipment;
• the new refrigerant be identified by a uniquely-colored label in order to identify the refrigerant in the system;
• all R-12 be properly removed from the system before filling the system with an alternative refrigerant;
• in order to prevent release of refrigerant to the atmosphere, a high-pressure compressor shutoff switch be installed on any system equipped with a pressure relief device; and
• separate, dedicated EPA-approved equipment be used to recover the R-12 from the system.
• In addition, alternative refrigerant blends that contain HCFC-22 must be used with barrier hoses.

A Word on Replacements Other Than R-134a

A number of refrigerants other than R-134a have been listed by EPA as acceptable under its Significant New Alternatives Policy (SNAP) program, or are under SNAP review. The SNAP program evaluates substitutes only for their effect on human health and the environment, and not for performance or durability. None of these refrigerants have been endorsed by the OEMs for use in vehicles, and few have had extensive testing in a wide range of vehicle models. In addition, most are currently not readily available in all areas of the country.
While some manufacturers of alternatives may be marketing their products as "drop-ins," keep in mind that because the regulations described above apply to any substitute for R-12, there is no such thing as a refrigerant that can literally be dropped in on top of the existing R-12 in the system. For more information on the SNAP requirements and on which alternatives have been reviewed, accepted, or deemed unacceptable by EPA, call the Ozone Hotline number above and request a copy of "Choosing and Using Alternative Refrigerants in Motor Vehicle Air Conditioning" or read it online.
Many service techs believe that R-134a is only a temporary replacement for R-12, to be used until a drop-in replacement that cools well and does not require a retrofit becomes available. Current research indicates that no such replacement refrigerant exists. The worldwide automotive industry conducted extensive research and testing on many potential substitutes for R-12 before selecting R-134a. EPA is not aware of any plans by the automakers to use any refrigerant in new vehicles other than R-134a.
Lubricants

PAGs vs. Esters

The mineral oil used with R-12 cannot be sufficiently transported throughout the a/c system by R-134a. Automobile manufacturers tested both PAGs and esters for refrigerant/lubricant miscibility, lubricity, chemical stability and materials compatibility. In the process of developing recommendations, they also considered the additives and conditioners present in the oils. Most - but not all - chose to use PAG lubricants in new vehicles equipped with R-134a, and are also recommending PAG lubricants for retrofits. Some compressor manufacturers are shipping new compressors with PAGs, some with esters, and some are shipping them empty.

PAGs are hygroscopic, which means that they will draw water from the atmosphere when exposed. Many aftermarket a/c specialists are choosing to use ester lubricants because they believe that the hygroscopic characteristics of PAGs may limit their lubricating ability and introduce corrosion into an a/c system. Esters are also hygroscopic (although less so than PAGs), and care must still be taken to ensure that excess moisture does not go into the system.
It is good practice to use PVC-coated gloves (or, if that is impractical, barrier creams) and safety goggles when handling these lubricants, since prolonged skin contact and/or even brief eye contact can cause irritations such as stinging and burning sensations. You should also avoid breathing any vapors produced by the lubricants, and make sure to use them in well ventilated areas. And be sure to keep both PAGs and esters in tightly sealed containers, both so that humidity does not contaminate the oil, and so that vapors do not escape. Flushing

The amount of mineral oil that can safely remain in a system after retrofitting, without affecting performance, is still being debated. It was originally thought that any mineral oil left in the system might cause system failure. As long as the tech has removed as much of the old mineral oil as possible, any residual R-12 left in the system should not have a significant effect on the performance of the system. Removing the mineral oil may require draining certain components. Unless the vehicle manufacturer recommends flushing the system during the retrofit procedure, a service tech can assume that flushing is not necessary. (Although the SAE J1661 procedure for retrofit includes flushing, SAE no longer believes that flushing is critical to a successful retrofit.)
Hoses and O-Rings

When R-134a was first introduced, it was thought that all non-barrier/nitrile hoses would have to be replaced during an a/c retrofit. Early laboratory tests showed that the small R-134a molecules leaked through the walls of non-barrier hoses more readily than the larger R-12 molecules did. In the lab, this caused unacceptably high leakage rates. More recent testing, however, has shown that oil used in automotive a/c systems is absorbed into the hose to create a natural barrier to R-134a permeation. In most cases, the R-12 system hoses will perform well, provided they are in good condition. Cracked or damaged hoses should always be replaced with barrier hoses.
Unless a fitting has been disturbed during the retrofit process, replacement should not be necessary. Most retrofit instructions call for lubricating replaced O-rings with mineral oil to provide this protection.
Compressors

Industry experts once thought that a retrofit would require compressor replacement. This belief helped create some of the horror stories about the expense of retrofitting. Now it is routinely accepted that most compressors that are functioning well in R-12 systems will continue to function after the systems have been retrofitted.

When a compressor is first run with R-12, a thin film of metal chloride forms on bearing surfaces and acts as an excellent anti-wear agent. This film continues to protect after the system has been converted to R-134a. This helps explain why a new R-12 compressor may fail more quickly if it is installed in an R-134a system without the benefit of a break-in period on R-12.
A few older compressors use seals that are not compatible with either R-134a or the new lubricants. The compressor manufacturer can identify which compressors need special attention. Any compressor that has seals made of Viton® should not be used with R-134a because the refrigerant will cause the seals to swell excessively. Of course, any compressor that is not in good shape should be replaced during the retrofit procedure. Service techs should make sure that any replacement compressor is approved for R-134a by its supplier.
Desiccants, Accumulators, Receiver/Driers

R-12 systems use an XH-5 desiccant, while R-134a systems use either XH-7 or XH-9 desiccant. Some manufacturers recommend routine replacement of the accumulator or receiver-drier to one containing XH-7 or XH-9 during the retrofit procedure. (Any systems with silica gel should also be switched to XH-7 or -9 desiccant.) Others recommend leaving it alone. Manufacturers generally agree, however, that the accumulator or receiver-drier should be replaced if the vehicle has over 70,000 miles or is older than five years, and is opened up for major repair. In that case, the only recommendation is to use the R-134a-compatible desiccants.

 

[Ecomike]

This statement is not true. The oils used are differant. The old mineral based oil doesn't mix with the 134a refrigerant. The reason the drier is replace is for prevention. If the drier comes apart there is a screen to catch any particles. If it gets past that screen it will restrict the expansion valve.

Nice post!

Not sure what you are saying is not true? There are aftermarket kits that allow one to charge a discharged R-12 system with R-134a and a PAG oil without draining the mineral oil. The PAG oil mixes with and carries the Mineral oil and the R-134a carries the PAG which is dragging the mineral oil with it. The ester oil does not do this, which is why the mineral oil must be drained to use ester oils.

I have talked with several AC only shop people as well as discussed this on an auto AC forum and the people who do auto AC work on a daily basis say the old R-12 desicant (XH-5) is not compatible with the new R-134a system (don't recall if it was the new oil, R-134a, or the trapping of water in the desicant with all the stuff that was the problem, but they claimed to have horror stories about systems (including compressors) failures where the desicant was not upgraded to the R-134a desicant (XH-7 or XH-9 according to your post) and they blaimed the mud they found in the system on decomposed XH-5 desicant. I am only repeating what many have told me.

Oh, by the way, what happens when the expansion valve gets restricted in a system that still does not yet have a working high pressure cutout switch (like my 85 jeep)?

:explosion

 

[cjcargo]

Well I work on all types of HVAC and refrigeration equipment, as well as car A/C units.
First there should not be any moisture in the system if the system was properly evacuated with a vacuum pump down to 300 microns.
I always replace the driers, like I said preventions. It also helps remove waxes from the oils
This mud you mentioned is from moisture mixing with the oil, kind of like when you see a milky mix after a blown head gasket.
If you system doesn't have a high pressure switch and the expansion is resticted the sytems pumps down and shuts off on the low pressure switch. The pressure on the high side only elevates slightly at first then drops with the drop in suction pressure. The refrierant is stored in the condenser and receiver. (This is not the case with a A/C unit with a long run of the line sets. Like with some in a household split A/C unit.)
Same is true when there is moisture in the system. The moisture freezes at the orifice of the valve, system pumps down shuts off. The moisture then thaws breaks loose and the cycle repeats itself. Moisture breaks the oils down and forms acid in the system, and attacks conponets in the system.

Below is a list of the most commonly used oils in refrigeration.

• Mineral is a wax free oil used for many years as a standard for refrigeration. When it is mixed with Freon 12 it travels throughout the system, but it does not mix with R134a.
• Alkylbenzene refrigerant oil is a synthetic aromatic hydro-carbon. It is compatible with mineral oil and has improved oil return over mineral.It can be used with most refrigerants but NOT 134a. Almost all NEW low temperature AC hermetic compressors are serviced with Alkylbenzene oil.
• Polyol Ester oil must be used with R134a refrigerant. This oil is compatible and acceptable for use with R12, R22, and 502. Most replacement engine drive systems come with this oil. NOTE: Once a system has been set up to run on Polyol Oil it can be switched back to Freon 12, but first you must check with the manufacturer for approval.
• PAG (Polyalkylene Glycol) is used in some new automobiles but is NOT recommended in retrofits as it is not compatible with other lubricants.

Most commonly used refrigerants in new and retrofit systems.

• CFC 12 is no longer manufactured in the United States and is being phased out. Freon 12 is still available but its high cost is prohibitive.
• HFC 134a is a long term non-ozone depleting alternative refrigerant, but it is not a direct replacement for R12.

Blends are a combination of two or three refrigerants most of which contain Freon 22.

• Freon 22 is also an ozone depletor and has the same restrictions and regulations as Freon 12. Although the production ban on it has been postponed until the year 2020, but only certified technicians can purchase any refrigerant that contains Freon.
• MP39 (401A) and MP66 (401B) are interim blends that were developed to serve as a retrofit for CFC 12. These refrigerants require Alkylbenzene oil.

Blends cause system high pressure to run higher than R12. Blends also tend to separate into their components which means that it may be necessary to remove and replace the entire charge if a leak occurs and refrigerant is lost.
There are certain things you need to do before adding refrigerant.

• Check for labeling on the compressor
• Check with the manufacturer to determine the type of refrigerant and oil to use.

Things not to do.

• Do not add 134a to any other refrigerant. The mixture could become flammable or toxic. 134a can't be used in a boat refrigeration system which uses either mineral or alkybenzene. These will not mix with 134a and will cause oil starvation resulting in compressor failure.
• Don't change the oil or refrigerant in a hermetically sealed compressor without checking with the manufacturer of the compressor. Hermetically sealed compressor motors and their wiring are submerged in the refrigerant and oil mixture. The synthetic compounds may strip the insulation off the wiring and cause damage to the compressor.

About five years ago there were concerns about converting to 134a. It was thought that the HFC 134a and oil mixture would destroy the rubber "O" rings, the interior plastic and elastomers parts and it was recommended that the oil should be flushed completely from the system or down to only 1%. Now the common consensus is that the Polyolester oil will mix with the mineral oil that is left in the system and that the previous use of mineral oil would have sealed the hoses and "O" rings thus preventing refrigerant leaks. After numerous tests by the automotive industry and major oil companies the conversion procedures were simplified to the following procedures.

1. Recover old refrigerant
2. Drain the oil from the compressor.
3. Replace the filter/dryers.
4. Add the correct amount of Polyol Ester oil.
5. Leak test the system Use a small amount of refrigerant to pressurize to a pressure that is equal to the ambient temperature. If nitrogen is available, pressurize to 150 PSI. Use no other gases such as oxygen for testing.
6. Deep Vacuum the system
7. Charge with 134a (80% of the R12 charge)
8. Do a performance check.
9. Install 134a service parts. (optional)
10. Replace any exposed "O" rings or seals with compatible 134a seals.

REMEMBER only 134a has met the minimum safety requirements and that if you use other refrigerant substitutes in your system your system will then become a test subject!

Don't get caught venting the refrigerant! Can get you a large fine .
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Your Air Conditioning and Refrigeration Systems containing refrigerants are now Regulated[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This means that virtually all commonly used commercial refrigerants in air conditioning and refrigeration, other than ammonia, are, or soon will be, regulated substances. Organizations that own or manage facilities with air conditioning and/or refrigeration equipment, including manufacturers, education, healthcare, government, food distribution, and so on, must insure they are in compliance with EPA Refrigerant Regulations.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Penalties for Non-Compliance are Severe[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Violations of these regulations and requirements can result in fines up to $27,500 per day per violation. Intentional violations can result in criminal penalties of up to five years imprisonment. Submission of false or misleading information, or failure to submit required records can result in criminal penalties, including two years imprisonment.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The gravity of a violation is determined by examining the potential environmental harm, the risk of (or actual) refrigerant loss and the extent of deviation from the regulations. In addition, other factors not directly related to the violation can affect the penalty assessment. These include good faith efforts to comply, previous violations, and/or payment of any previously assessed penalties for earlier violations.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Unannounced inspections can be and are conducted routinely by the EPA to evaluate compliance and also to respond to violation reports. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Citizen Reward Program (Bounty Hunters)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]EPA pays individuals up to $10,000 for turning in a violator that results in a conviction under the Citizen Reward program. In one case, a citizen’s videotape of a contractor venting refrigerants was used as evidence.[/FONT]


More Good reading on Auto A/C's see this page
http://www.allpar.com/eek/ac.html

 

[Ecomike]

Now you have me wondering what oil I used. I will dig out the container later.

But I decided to check your facts, and my older references and at first it looked like I had them backwards, making you right on the POE/PAG compatability with mineral oil issue, but then I found this, which makes me wonder if I have not been confused the last few years by changing opinions on this topic? But this is the first time I ever heard this!

"There have been many developments in the last few years regarding the specific procedures for retrofitting when it comes to removing the old mineral oil in the systems. Contrary to other information, PAG and POE are both compatible with mineral oil. Many OEMs are recommending that the old mineral oil be left in a system after removal of the R-12."

Found at:
http://www.arkema-inc.com/index.cfm?pag=483

By the way, not saying your wrong on the PAG/POE compatability with MO, I just don't usually make this kind of mistake. Other sources I check agreed with your post and not mine.

The rest of your post is great, I even learned a few new things. I got to work on a 404a refrigerant ice machine last week. That was interesting.

Oh, and as I am sure you know, many Auto AC mechanics are using those 2 bit air compressor driven air eductor valves for pulling vaccum on AC systems now, they barely get 25"s of vacuum from what I hear. One of the reasons I do not use them. Me I have a lab with several lab vaccums just laying around. I think they get down to something like 50 microns. :sunshine: I could suck water of a desert with them, LOL.

 

[sjx40250]

THIS should be a sticky!
Great info!

How does this apply to early XJ's, '87 on up until 134a?

Are the A/C systems much different between years?

What are the breaks and where would we find componants like replacement dryers?

How would one drain the oil?

When retrofitting, should the 134a have the oil or not?

WHat would be the procedure specifically for XJ's?

 

[cjcargo]

I really can't answer those questions.
I belive their basically the same.
The R-134a systems have larger coils to make them work better. The R-134a doesn't work as well in an older system as one designed to work with the R-12 refrigerant. Sometimes it's better sticking with what you have in the system.
Pressurize the system and make sure you don't have any leaks. I use nitrogen, because it is not effected by temperature changes. So if you pressurize it to 150psi when it's 95 degress out side and you check it 30 minuets later but now the temperture dropped to 85 the gauge should still show 150psi if there isn't any leaks.

Auto parts suppliers sell the driers.

I drain the oil by removing the compressor and dumping it out. I then flush a small amout of the new oil thru the system and compressor.
Then fill the compressor back with the new oil. Useually the amount you removed from the compressor when drained. Or per manufactures specs.

But as stated some are saying that all the old oil doesn't have to be removed from the system, so a compleat flush may not be nessesary.

I've been lucky that I haven't had any problems with my A/C