Democrats, Republicans, Pundits & Preachers

[Fergie]

:sure: :looser:

Isn't that the same as an alcoholic? No wonder Rush is on his side, they have a lot in common.

Is that the best you can do as far as an arguement?

Try to be a little more articulate. A coherent response with some kind of backup wouldnt hurt. Right now it sounds like you're an angst ridden highschooler, and from what I have read form you before, you are better than that.

FErgie

 

[TRNDRVR]

Try to be a little more articulate.

Nothing worse than a born again hypocrite who's hit rock bottom and uses a figment of the imagination as a crutch.

 

[Eagle]

Who can you blame this one man in making the war longer, you need to do your homework about the war and the history of Vietnam, and how far the people were willing to go.

Listen up, little boy, and listen well.

Lt. JG Kerry put HIMSELF in for purple hearts while in Vietnam, for injuries most military men and women wouldn't even bother reporting to the infirmary to have looked at. But that's nothing.

The standard tour in 'Nam was 12 months, but Kerry engineered four "wounds" and that qualified him to bail out and go home after slightly less than 4 months. Again, most officers in a similar situation would have elected to stay in country with their men, by Lt. JG Kerry couldn't wait to get back to the States.

What did he do there? First, he testified under oath before Congress that he had personal knowledge of widespread atrocities committed by American soldiers against Vietnamese civilians. It has now come out that he had no such knowledge -- he lied under oath the the Congress of the United States.

Not enough? After his active duty was ended, but WHILE STILL AN OFFICER IN THE U.S. NAVY, Lt JG Kerry went to Paris and held unauthorized conferences with members of the North Vietnamese government. This is illegal. In fact, I believe this is deemed treason. It is contrary to both civilian law and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

The best reason in the world to vote for Bush is: Who in their right mind could possible want a devious, morally bankrupt mouth breather like John Kerry as President and Commander in Chief?

And please ... don't condescendingly tell me to "do my homework" on Vietnam. I WAS THERE, and you weren't even born.

 

[Z22_Z33]

What did he do there? First, he testified under oath before Congress that he had personal knowledge of widespread atrocities committed by American soldiers against Vietnamese civilians. It has now come out that he had no such knowledge -- he lied under oath the the Congress of the United States.

Not enough? After his active duty was ended, but WHILE STILL AN OFFICER IN THE U.S. NAVY, Lt JG Kerry went to Paris and held unauthorized conferences with members of the North Vietnamese government. This is illegal. In fact, I believe this is deemed treason. It is contrary to both civilian law and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

The best reason in the world to vote for Bush is: Who in their right mind could possible want a devious, morally bankrupt mouth breather like John Kerry as President and Commander in Chief?

And please ... don't condescendingly tell me to "do my homework" on Vietnam. I WAS THERE, and you weren't even born.

Could you tell me what civilian law and Uniform Code of Military Justice, he broke and how he did it? Right now I am just curious. Yes I could do a search on the net but there would be too much bs I'd have to sort through, and I couldn’t tell whose is lying or speaking the truth.
I was not talking to you, about doing homework. I was talking to XJZ. I was just curious how kerry can be held accountable for making the war longer and worse for the pows. Someone said earlier that he is against kerry, but we should speak out for what we think is wrong.
So the fact the people of North Vietnam were willing to go to any lengths to get us out and that we were a foreign nation has nothing to do with how the POWs were treated or how long the war was to last. Instead this one man is the reason?

“Who in their right mind could possible want a devious, morally bankrupt mouth breather … as President and Commander in Chief?”

Interesting what you just said there. Anyone who doesn’t care for bush, have anything to say about this?

 

[Eagle]

I'm not going to do YOUR homework for you, because I would have to perform the same search to find the actual citations. You will need to search the USC (or United States Code), and the UCMJ, or Uniform Code of Military Justice. It's in there. Look for terms like "consorting with the enemy" and "giving aid and comfort to the enemy." In the USC also look for exactly who is authorized to carry out international diplomacy. You'll find it is the Executive Branch, not even the Congress. And certainly not the military, or individuals acting without any authority whatsoever.

How did his actions prolong the war? By conveying to the North that the people of the United States were not firmly committed to the prosecution of the war, thus encouraging them to kill more of our soldiers and to torture more American prisoners, so as to make the war even less palatable to the American populace.

Without people like Kerry and Jane Fonda, the North would have lost the will to fight. They have publicly admitted so. It's interesting that Jane Fonda has apologized to America for her actions, but Kerry has not. And Fonda was a civilian movie actress, while Kerry was a commissioned officer in the United States Navy.

 

[Sarge]

Read "A Viet Cong Memoir" by Truong Nhu Tang. Tang was the Minister of Justice during the war. He talks in part about how the politically situation in America helped the war effort for them. They were actually very politically aware of us and how to manipulate as well. I'm sure there are books out there which do a better job of it showing it.

Interesting book as well because it would appear we were screwed from the begininning. Also appears that in essence there were two wars going on at the time. The second one was all mind games and back channel planning by the Cong (communists) from North who after we left went on to pretty much oust the folks from the South who had helped them. The South merely wanted independence for the country and the North wanted communist rule for the country.

Sarge

 

[JeffV]

How did his actions prolong the war? By conveying to the North that the people of the United States were not firmly committed to the prosecution of the war, thus encouraging them to kill more of our soldiers and to torture more American prisoners, so as to make the war even less palatable to the American populace.

Without people like Kerry and Jane Fonda, the North would have lost the will to fight. They have publicly admitted so. It's interesting that Jane Fonda has apologized to America for her actions, but Kerry has not. And Fonda was a civilian movie actress, while Kerry was a commissioned officer in the United States Navy.

Comparing what Kerry did and what Fonda did is just another example of "spin." I'm not defending Kerry, it just wasn't the same act.

If you're looking to blame someone for conveying a lack of commitment to the Viet Nam war, blame our Senators and our House of Representatives. Anti-war demonstrations were taking place in virtually every city in the US. BLAME THE MAJORITY of the of the US population. Was the National Guard justified at Kent State because protesting students were treasonists, and prolonging the war?

There is a difference between commitment to a war (that history appears to have interpreted as a mistake) and commitment to "winning" at any cost. What would be so different today if we had "won?" Would it somehow justify the 53,000 + dead & MIA?

I think any reference made to those time during this election do more harm to Bush's reelection hopes than they do Kerry's.

You want to bring up Viet-Nam and things that happened at that time? Tell us what you know about "the dark side" About "Friendly fire" deaths of overzealous LTs, about ear collections, About Mai Lai......... Or maybe it's just better to let it go.

 

[Renklaf]

There is a shrine dedicated to Kerry in Hanoi(I think) for what he did for the VC.

 

[Fergie]

Comparing what Kerry did and what Fonda did is just another example of "spin." I'm not defending Kerry, it just wasn't the same act.

If you're looking to blame someone for conveying a lack of commitment to the Viet Nam war, blame our Senators and our House of Representatives. Anti-war demonstrations were taking place in virtually every city in the US. BLAME THE MAJORITY of the of the US population. Was the National Guard justified at Kent State because protesting students were treasonists, and prolonging the war?

Did the kids at Kent State go to Paris and meet with the enemy?

 

[JeffV]

Did the kids at Kent State go to Paris and meet with the enemy?

No. But they died demonstrating for what they believed in.

Does that make them heros?

How do think wars conclude? Do we just kill them all, or do we talk?

 

[Fergie]

No. But they died demonstrating for what they believed in.

Does that make them heros?

How do think wars conclude? Do we just kill them all, or do we talk?

Read back a couple posts as to who has the power in the U.S. government to conduct talks and negotiations.

I'll give you one guess as to who CAN'T do it.

Fergie

 

[Captain Ron]

The usual drivel.

There are some pretty upstanding names on those lists.

There are plenty of inaccuracies.

* John Wayne
Cheap shot.

* Ronald Reagan
Who'da thought, at the time of his election to office?

* Bob Kerrey
Ooops...

Nice to see he threw in John McCain as a token piece...That guy has more balls than the all the Dem's combined.

* Daniel Inouye
This guy may be the spoiler on that.

John McCain will always be more than just a "token piece".

Military service does not automatically legitimize a person for a political career, nor is it anywhere near de facto qualification for leadership of this nation, wartime or no.

--ron

 

[JeffV]

In no way am i condoning what Kerry did, but drastic times call for drastic measures. Some people believe "doing the right thing" is more important that "doing the the right way."

You may be old enough to vote, But your not old enough to judge.

Read back a couple posts as to who has the power in the U.S. government to conduct talks and negotiations.

I'll give you one guess as to who CAN'T do it.

Fergie

 

[Lou]

In no way am i condoning what Kerry did, but drastic times call for drastic measures.

Ditto.

As Captain Ron has already 'suggested', some you may want to view Fog Of War which is available on video. It's a bit of a bio on Robert McNamara, who was then the Sec. of Defence.

It gives a unique perspective of the war from the eyes of its reluctant architect.

For those that do not get the opportunity to view it, I will summarize as I think it relates to Kerry.

It was failure to 'communicate' with the enemy that caused the war to last as long as it did -- and possibly for it to have started in the first place.

 

[Fergie]

Some people believe "doing the right thing" is more important that "doing the the right way."

He didnt even do it the right way. He did it at the expense of his fellow service men, by bad-mouthing them and denigrating them.

You may be old enough to vote, But your not old enough to judge.

And you may be old enough to remember, but age and wisdom dont always go hand in hand.

Fergie

 

[JeffV]

He didnt even do it the right way. He did it at the expense of his fellow service men, by bad-mouthing them and denigrating them. Fergie

That is only an opinion, not a fact.......... an interpretation of a minute spot on a timeline that was 19 years long.

If Kerry had committed a treasonist act or other attrocity why do you think he was he never prosecuted?

Believe it or not there is a not-so-simple, but logical explaination.

And you may be old enough to remember, but age and wisdom dont always go hand in hand.

Fergie

Thanks for pointing that out. When we're young, the line between right and wrong seem to be narrow and well defined. As we get older those lines start to get fuzzy. Not just because our eyesight is deteriorating, but because we recognize that sometimes we don't get to make a simple right/wrong decisions. Sometimes there is no "right." Sometimes we have to make a choice between the lesser of two, three, four or even more evils......... but we only get to choose one.

Like I said, I don't condone what Kerry did, but I have a basic familiarity with the circumstances that led to his decision, as I'm sure the prosecutors of that time did. For that reason, I won't judge him.

In my opinion those who choose to persecute someone for a decision they made, without a thorough understanding of the circumstances, help to create an atmoshere of where apathy will rule.

 

[Darky]

So we shouldnt have a democary here in this great country?

What was Kerrys rank, while in vietnam? I didnt know he was a general or something higher. How did he lengthen tthe war and help jeopardize POWs?

XJZ will you please answer my question. I want a straight answer, please.

He did answer your question. I've put the question answered in bold. As to Kerry's rank? He was much, much lower than a general. He was a lieutenant. And I don't see how speaking against someone who betrayed his fellow sailors, soldiers, and Marines is saying we shouldn't have a democracy.

 

[Fergie]

You make good points and I see what you are saying, but still disagree about Kerry. If he had not come on to the Presidential scene boasting to a be a war hero(not his exact words, just my view), then I would not have a problem with him. However, he has based a lot of his credibility on the fact that he fought for our country, but if you look at what he has done, you'd think that he didnt want anything to do with not only the countyr, but his brothers in arms. And that is where my major complaint is, in the fact that he hung other soldiers out to dry so he could leverage himself into a better political view.

I think that he wasnt prosecuted because too many others wanted to save face and keep their political appointments. Then again, not being fully aware of the political situation at the time, I can only guess.

The view of a fuzzy right and wrong is a means of explaining away an issue when someone that has the power to make the decision, doesnt actually have the cojones or the ability to stand up and say, "This is what I feel is right, and that is what I based my decision on." If a person believes strongly enough, there is no lesser of two evils, one is right and the other is wrong.

As far as understanding the circumstances, you are correct, I do not understand. I was not alive in that era, and have a very limited view of the world still. However, I know what I feel to be right and wrong, and what Kerry did was wrong to me.

And just a bit curious here, JeffV, did you ever serve in the military?

Fergie

 

[Darky]

That is only an opinion, not a fact

That is a fact. The fact is that the executive branch is the only right way to negotiate with the enemy.

Our appeal notes both Kerry's violations of the UCMJ (Article 104 part 904) and U.S. Code (18 USC Sec. 2381 and 18 USC Sec. 953), and calls for his disqualification for public office in accordance with the Constitution's Fourteenth Amendment, Section 3, which states: "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President ... having previously taken an oath ... to support the Constitution of the United States, [who has] engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."

<----That's for Z22. Hopefully that explains to you how Kerry was wrong. And here is how Kerry contributed to making the war drag on longer:

...if not for the disunity created by such stateside protesters, Hanoi would have ultimately surrendered...

I don't blame Kerry necessarily for speaking out on what he saw as wrong, but at the same time I say he could've picked a better time. A time when he wasn't home from his shortened tour with 3 Purple Hearts he put himself in for while others are still over there fighting, dying, and being tortured; receiving wounds of a much worse nature than any he received without writing your own citations. A time when the enemy couldn't use his own words against his fellow fighting men. And I don't dislike him for a decision but for many. His Silver Star citation has been rewritten twice. Glenn correct me if I'm wrong on this, but your citation can only be rewritten if the details are wrong. I.E. It says you defended your base against 50 enemy when it was 15. Or your name is John Forbes Kerry, but it says Hanoi John, etc. His had all the details correct but it was reworded to sound better, to avoid sounding like he killed an unarmed man by shooting him in the back as he fled. Her's the link to that info: click here

 

[JeffV]

The view of a fuzzy right and wrong is a means of explaining away an issue when someone that has the power to make the decision, doesnt actually have the cojones or the ability to stand up and say, "This is what I feel is right, and that is what I based my decision on." If a person believes strongly enough, there is no lesser of two evils, one is right and the other is wrong.

I believe to do SOMETHING or NOTHING was the root choice. Doing nothing is also wrong. I also believe anything that was following "politically correct" procedures of the time would have equated to doing nothing.

And just a bit curious here, JeffV, did you ever serve in the military? Fergie

Yes, I was in the last draft. I didn't know if I would be called, and a tour in Viet Nam didn't have the "political glamor" and "Hero Status" that the current war does so I opted to Join the Navy (AKA Grey canoe club). Nixon was President. I went through the transition when If you were 18 you could die for your country but were too young to vote. I served my time. Spent time in the far east. The greatest lesson learned was "there's no place like home." Closest I got to Nam was about 24 miles from shore. Got married in my Dress Blues. I'm proud of my country, but not it's politics.