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Another good reason to keep old tech Jeeps!

Ecomike

NAXJA# 2091
NAXJA Member
Location
MilkyWay Galaxy
:roflmao:

That's all kinds of awesome!

You mean maybe I'll be able to make the idiot doing 55 in the left lane speed up or move the hell over soon?

Seems right now they can only apply/disable the brakes and stuff like that, but I'm betting it's drive by wire so the gas pedal and possibly steering shouldn't be much harder...

I don't intend to ever buy a fly by wire car myself though.
 
Christine is alive and well, coming to your neighborhood soon!:(

"
The alarming number of safety recalls appearing in headlines of late is worrying enough. Now researchers have shown that it's possible to take away driver control of a moving vehicle by remotely hacking into relatively insecure computer systems common in modern automobiles. The team managed to break into key vehicle systems to kill the engine, apply or disable the brakes and even send cheeky messages to radio or dashboard displays.
Many of the safety, efficiency and performance improvements seen in today's automobiles have been achieved with the help of the numerous computerized systems monitoring and controlling various aspects of what makes up a modern car. According to an article in IEEE Spectrum last year, an "S-class Mercedes-Benz requires over 20 million lines of code alone" and "contains nearly as many ECUs as the new Airbus A380 (excluding the plane’s in-flight entertainment system)." The author notes that cars will soon "require 200 million to 300 million lines of software code.""


"For the actual experiments, components were stripped out and bench tested under laboratory conditions, in a stationary vehicle and with live road tests on a closed track. The team managed to bring a wide range of systems under external control, from the engine to brakes to locks to the instrument panel to (the first to fall) the radio and its display. The attackers posted messages, initiated annoying sounds and even left the driver powerless to control radio volume.
The Instrument Panel Cluster/Driver Information Center faired no better, as well as cheeky messages, the team altered the fuel gauge and speedometer readings, adjusted panel illumination and in one experiment, a 60-second countdown clock was displayed on the dashboard. When time ran out, the engine died and the door locks engaged. Subsequent hacks took over the Engine Control Module which lead to uncontrollable engine revving, readout errors and complete disabling of the engine."


"As if the spirit of John Carpenter's "Christine" was alive and well, the team was also able to "lock and unlock the doors; jam the door locks by continually activating the lock relay; pop the trunk; adjust interior and exterior lighting levels; honk the horn (indefinitely and at varying frequencies); disable and enable the window relays; disable and enable the windshield wipers; continuously shoot windshield fluid; and disable the key lock relay to lock the key in the ignition."
Even the Electronic Brake Control Module was no match for the onslaught, with both individual and sets of brakes locked up at a whim. Equally worrying, the researchers were also able to completely disengage the brakes "even with car’s wheels spinning at 40 MPH while on jack stands" in the lab and then out on the test track (a de-commissioned airport runway) "forcibly activate the brakes, lurching the driver forward and causing the car to stop suddenly." The track test car had a laptop connected to the CAN bus via the OBD-II port which allowed a chase vehicle's laptop to wirelessly control in-car systems."


http://www.gizmag.com/vehicle-compu...aign=a472a54316-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email
 
So remember boys and girls,...

Don't let strange people plug things into your OBD port,... And leave them connected.

I'd be a little more worried if they could plant code allowing them to control vehicle systems without connected hardware, say through a factory installed cell phone or something,...

I think a bigger threat would be if a manufacturer site, like On-star was hacked or employees subverted. (May have already happened.)
 
So, what do you call "OLD TECH"? An old 84-86' Cherokee? 87-95' Cherokee? Or a 96-2001 Cherokee?

It seems to me that once you entered the OBDI world, you entered the world of engine and transmission management, which requires a computer.

I'm not a fan of having a central module running all the cars systems; I like to have control, and I like to be able to fix it.

But I'm not going to get all paranoid about it because somebody writes a panic article describing how someone with 2 laptops and a wireless link can alter you cars operating charactoristics while you're driving it. You'd think you'd see the laptop sitting on the seat and wonder why the cable is plugged into your diagnostic port way before there would be an issue.

You gota relax Mike :D

Ron
 
Ever heard of bluetooth wireless, 4G wireless cell phones, cell phones using bluetooth to interface with the cars ECUs for the stereo, Onstar, SIRI XM satellitte radios wired into the cars..... Use your imagine, like a real Hacker would.

"Still more alarmingly, the researchers say they also took control of a car using wireless signals and operated it via the internet, but would not provide further details of this part of the study."

http://www.velocitimag.com/2010/05/modern-cars-vulnerable-to-hacks.html

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/03/hacker-bricks-cars/

"More than 100 drivers in Austin, Texas found their cars disabled or the horns honking out of control, after an intruder ran amok in a web-based vehicle-immobilization system normally used to get the attention of consumers delinquent in their auto payments. Police with Austin’s High Tech Crime Unit on Wednesday arrested 20-year-old Omar Ramos-Lopez, a former Texas Auto Center employee who was laid off last month, and allegedly sought revenge by bricking the cars sold from the dealership’s four Austin-area lots.
“We initially dismissed it as mechanical failure,” says Texas Auto Center manager Martin Garcia. “We started having a rash of up to a hundred customers at one time complaining. Some customers complained of the horns going off in the middle of the night. The only option they had was to remove the battery.”
The dealership used a system called Webtech Plus as an alternative to repossessing vehicles that haven’t been paid for. Operated by Cleveland-based Pay Technologies, the system lets car dealers install a small black box under vehicle dashboards that responds to commands issued through a central website, and relayed over a wireless pager network. The dealer can disable a car’s ignition system, or trigger the horn to begin honking, as a reminder that a payment is due. The system will not stop a running vehicle.


So, what do you call "OLD TECH"? An old 84-86' Cherokee? 87-95' Cherokee? Or a 96-2001 Cherokee?

It seems to me that once you entered the OBDI world, you entered the world of engine and transmission management, which requires a computer.

I'm not a fan of having a central module running all the cars systems; I like to have control, and I like to be able to fix it.

But I'm not going to get all paranoid about it because somebody writes a panic article describing how someone with 2 laptops and a wireless link can alter you cars operating charactoristics while you're driving it. You'd think you'd see the laptop sitting on the seat and wonder why the cable is plugged into your diagnostic port way before there would be an issue.

You gota relax Mike :D

Ron
 
Funny couple of stories:

Early/mid eighties the Volvo Factory Rep for our area was a genuine Swede and naturalized U.S. Citizen. Well, in his youth in Sweden, which has substantial penalties for speeders, the police adopted the new Volvo 160s with EFI. Lucky for the kids it didn't take long to discover that a home-brewed transmitters could be cobbled together and you could kill the injection system of the police unit chasing you. Unluckily for the youths the problem was soon fixed.

Flash forward, we had numerous service contracts for CHP, city, county Chrysler vehicles. They all went through a rash of dead computers from keying up their own in-vehicle radios.
 
So, what do you call "OLD TECH"? An old 84-86' Cherokee? 87-95' Cherokee? Or a 96-2001 Cherokee?

It seems to me that once you entered the OBDI world, you entered the world of engine and transmission management, which requires a computer.

I'm not a fan of having a central module running all the cars systems; I like to have control, and I like to be able to fix it.

But I'm not going to get all paranoid about it because somebody writes a panic article describing how someone with 2 laptops and a wireless link can alter you cars operating charactoristics while you're driving it. You'd think you'd see the laptop sitting on the seat and wonder why the cable is plugged into your diagnostic port way before there would be an issue.

You gota relax Mike :D

Ron
You've got a point, a DRB II can be used to cycle the HCU on an ABS equipped XJ...

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

:eyes:

They make bluetooth OBD II adapters... though they probably don't handle the manufacturer specific portions of the standard very well.
 
Actually, I think THIS is the best reason to keep old tech jeeps:
Congress may triple cost of cars' 'black boxes'
The Toyota safety scandal could lead to an expensive prospect for automakers and consumers alike -- a sharp increase in the price of cars' "black box" event records to make them fireproof and waterproof like those on commercial aircraft, Automotive News reports.

How expensive? Try triple the cost, up to $5,000, the News says. That would be about half the cost of some of the cheapest cars on the market right now, like small Nissan Versa.

The automotive safety legislation currently working its way through Congress requires all cars to carry data recorders that could remember a car's speed, deceleration and other factors five seconds before a crash, and up to a second's worth after a crash. That would be a boon not only to crash investigators, but attorneys and automakers in event of the inevitable lawsuits. The regulation would begin with the 2015 model year.

Could be worse: Aircraft black boxes cost about $20,000.
http://content.usatoday.com/communi...ngress-may-triple-cost-of-cars-black-boxes-/1
 
Hell, why stop there when you can add cheap video cams and records for the video to the package!
 
Friend and customer of mine has a repair shop, the dealers send him stuff when they can't fix it. I would love a new 4 door wrangler, what I don't want is ABS, tire pressure monitoring system, electronic stability control, electronic roll mitigation, all speed traction control, brake assist whatever that is. I looked up prices of the sensors, screw that.
 
Wonder what would happen if you pulled all of the fuses for that crap Rich listed.
Car wouldn't start, probably. Either that or the car would lock you in and call the police. :D (Wait!, no electronic door locks either!,...)
 
Car wouldn't start, probably. Either that or the car would lock you in and call the police. :D (Wait!, no electronic door locks either!,...)

Yea they do, they put electric locks and power windows on Wranglers.
My guess is if they put recording systems in and you screwed with any of the 'safety' features you would be up the creek if you got in an accident, your car would testify against you. :D :D :D :D
 
Unless the system is tacked on as an afterthought, in which case, it should be trivial to fake it into telling them you were doing 20mph when the accident occurred.

I'd put money on it at least being that way for a few years, till they do the next major revision of the BCM+ECU/PCM for the model in question, at which point it would end up integrated.
 
I see a whole new business for hackers here. On the scene hackers/ car wrecker service that hacks and fixes the accident data....for a FEE!

LOL
 
It'd be easier to do pre-accident - install a frequency divider in the VSS line to the blackbox, or a circuit in between the CCD/PCI/CAN bus and the blackbox... changing the data after it was recorded would take real work.

I really wish political sorts would keep their fingers out of such technical things. It's easy to fake, expensive, and just opens more loopholes than it closes. Daylight savings time and the whole "net neutrality" fiasco are two prime examples, along with the toothless CAN-SPAM act.
 
Funny couple of stories:

Early/mid eighties the Volvo Factory Rep for our area was a genuine Swede and naturalized U.S. Citizen. Well, in his youth in Sweden, which has substantial penalties for speeders, the police adopted the new Volvo 160s with EFI. Lucky for the kids it didn't take long to discover that a home-brewed transmitters could be cobbled together and you could kill the injection system of the police unit chasing you. Unluckily for the youths the problem was soon fixed.

Flash forward, we had numerous service contracts for CHP, city, county Chrysler vehicles. They all went through a rash of dead computers from keying up their own in-vehicle radios.


those chrysler vehicles didnt happen to be in the 98 year range did they?
 
The CEO of the place I do work for told me about a small town where all the cars were dying, and no one could figure it. Turned out to be a renegade frequency on a local retail machine. Every time it rang up a sale, it shut down the local new cars, killed the ignitions. I forget the exact details.
 
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