forthehalibut
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- Colorado
Just wondering if any Jeeps--especially in the mid-late 90's, that are equipped for "flex fuel?" I've tried searching the Jeep and Chrysler websites, but to no avail.
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An Jeeps Take E-85 Ethanol?
- Thread starter forthehalibut
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bjoehandley
NAXJA Forum User
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- WeGo, Chi-Town, Ill
I wondered about that and Dad thought it might have been possible but on mine having just hit 90k he figured it may be "too old" to safely try it.
JEEPZZ
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- In front of my PC
I remember mid90's Chrysler minivans that were labeled "flexi-fuel" vehicles but the second fuel was LPG not E85. It's extremely tough to find E85 today yet alone 10 years ago and even though it's been around for a while, most people didn't what E85 was 6 months ago.
btw, flexi-fuel LPG XJs are fairly common in Europe.
btw, flexi-fuel LPG XJs are fairly common in Europe.
2000XJSPORT
NAXJA Forum User
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- Illinois
At the 2006 Chicago Auto show I asked the same question. I was told by Jeep that the Inline 6 in Jeep Cherokees will not take E85. It is not Flex-Fuel. It will do more damage to it then it's worth. I also asked the same question at the Flex Fuel setup and they said the same thing about the Jeep Cherokee Inline 6.
Alex
Alex
Rick Anderson
NAXJA Forum User
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- Lusby, MD
My 2002 Grand Caravan is FlexFuel. Its in the Owner's Manual and labeled on the Fuel Tank Filler Cap, E85 capable.
Mopar also stocks a special motor oil, that your suppose to use if you use E85, since there is more blowby and the alcohol degrades the engine oil more.
Personally, I'd rather stick to gasoline. Alcohol has a lot of problems compared to gasoline, the flex fuel motors do have upgrades to the fuel system to handle the corrosive nature of the alcohol, and there has been advances to improve the cold starting abilities, etc. but gasoline is still more reliable and convienient. As well, I'm not convince that using E85, even in a flex fuel motor, would NOT reduce the longevity of your engine. The fact that Mopar is stocking a special oil to use if you use E85 is evidence of that.
As well, E85 had better cost less than half what gasoline is costing for it to be even practical. Alcohol has only half the energy density of gasoline, meaning you have to burn twice as much to get the same power. Basically, your mileage will almost drop to half of what it was with gasoline, as well, you'll only get half as far on a tank of gas. If E85 cost 60% or more of what Gasoline costs, its still cheaper to use gasoline.
Mopar also stocks a special motor oil, that your suppose to use if you use E85, since there is more blowby and the alcohol degrades the engine oil more.
Personally, I'd rather stick to gasoline. Alcohol has a lot of problems compared to gasoline, the flex fuel motors do have upgrades to the fuel system to handle the corrosive nature of the alcohol, and there has been advances to improve the cold starting abilities, etc. but gasoline is still more reliable and convienient. As well, I'm not convince that using E85, even in a flex fuel motor, would NOT reduce the longevity of your engine. The fact that Mopar is stocking a special oil to use if you use E85 is evidence of that.
As well, E85 had better cost less than half what gasoline is costing for it to be even practical. Alcohol has only half the energy density of gasoline, meaning you have to burn twice as much to get the same power. Basically, your mileage will almost drop to half of what it was with gasoline, as well, you'll only get half as far on a tank of gas. If E85 cost 60% or more of what Gasoline costs, its still cheaper to use gasoline.
Rick Anderson
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- Location
- Lusby, MD
Alcohol is less likely to ping, so you can turn up the spark advance.
18 MPG on a 4 cyl, with pinging under load, sounds like something was wrong with your motor that caused the pinging and low mileage. The Alcohol resistance to pinging may have helped the problem.
25mpg on E85, sounds higher than I would expect, but I've never tried E85.
18 MPG on a 4 cyl, with pinging under load, sounds like something was wrong with your motor that caused the pinging and low mileage. The Alcohol resistance to pinging may have helped the problem.
25mpg on E85, sounds higher than I would expect, but I've never tried E85.
Rick Anderson
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Lusby, MD
A bad EGR will do it, an alcohol's properties could handle the problems a bad egr would cause.
But still, 25mpg, from what I've read, alcohol gets half the mileage of gasoline (since the A/F ratio is literally twice as rich as that of gasoline) and E85 is 85% alcohol, so you should have gotten roughly 55% of the mileage you would with gasoline. If I'm right, that would mean you would have gotten 45mpg under the same conditions with gasoline. I don't think any Jeep has ever done that. Hmmmm, what else might they be doing with E85 to get mileage up that high.
But still, 25mpg, from what I've read, alcohol gets half the mileage of gasoline (since the A/F ratio is literally twice as rich as that of gasoline) and E85 is 85% alcohol, so you should have gotten roughly 55% of the mileage you would with gasoline. If I'm right, that would mean you would have gotten 45mpg under the same conditions with gasoline. I don't think any Jeep has ever done that. Hmmmm, what else might they be doing with E85 to get mileage up that high.
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Whoever said alcohol gets 1/2 the mileage of gasoline needs their head examined! What use would it be if it cost more and ran 50% LESS distance? I had a 6,000 lb GVW with all the stuff on board (engine parts and spare stuff, camping gear, 3 spare tires and 3 adults)
Each motor and EFI system reacts differently to alcohol in the fuel. My Renix 4.0L doesn't care for alcohol one bit! (running much of it causes my injector seals to leak)
Each motor and EFI system reacts differently to alcohol in the fuel. My Renix 4.0L doesn't care for alcohol one bit! (running much of it causes my injector seals to leak)
JoBo
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- Columbus, Ohio
carnuck said:
I recently read that E85 gets 72% of MPG for the same amount of gasoline and pure E gets 70%.
JoBo
Rick Anderson
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- Location
- Lusby, MD
Methanol Alcohol gets 1/2 the mileage of Gasoline, Ethanol Alcohol gets 2/3 the mileage of Gasoline. Thats explains the confusion, I was thinking back to facts about Methanol, which E85 is 85% Ethanol Alcohol, remember E85 is 15% gasoline which boosts its mileage a bit. So the 70%-72% figure sounds very reasonable and correct for E85.carnuck said:
The Energy Density of:
Gasoline 125k BTU's/Gallon
Ethanol 84.4k BTU's/Gallon
Methanol 62.8 BTU's/Gallon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
Those are links at Wikipedia, which anyone can add or edit the articles, you can go there and post that they should have thier heads examined if you like.
So how do the BTU's make fuel economy one way or the other? It doesn't account for the higher "octane" value of alcohol or the fact that it burns cleaner than gasoline, so less is wasted.
I hear and read similar stuff on LPG, yet I got 20 mpg out of a 1 ton truck on LPG (AMC 6 stroker with 11:1 compression) and plan to do so with the same truck, only with LPGEFI next time.
There are laws of nature in effect that state pretty much what I am saying (It's been awhile since I could recite all of Boyle's laws) People are brainwashed into thinking such things aren't possible (like Ford saying they can't get more than 20 mpg out of the '99 Ranger 4x4 we had. All it took was a gear swap to get closer to 25!)
I hear and read similar stuff on LPG, yet I got 20 mpg out of a 1 ton truck on LPG (AMC 6 stroker with 11:1 compression) and plan to do so with the same truck, only with LPGEFI next time.
There are laws of nature in effect that state pretty much what I am saying (It's been awhile since I could recite all of Boyle's laws) People are brainwashed into thinking such things aren't possible (like Ford saying they can't get more than 20 mpg out of the '99 Ranger 4x4 we had. All it took was a gear swap to get closer to 25!)
Rick Anderson
NAXJA Forum User
- Location
- Lusby, MD
*An internal combustion engine uses air as its working fluid, the fuel is used to heat the air in the cylinder to cause it to raise its pressure and force the pistons down the bore. For an alternative fuel to make the equavelant torque/power it has to heat the air in the cylinder an equal amount. Thus, if the alternative fuel has a lower energy density, more must be used to get the same total energy. Luckily, alcohol requires less oxygen than gasoline to balance its oxidizing equation, so you can richen the A/F to make up for the lower energy density, and thus you are burning more fuel to get the same amount energy.
*Octane has nothing to do with the amount of ENERGY in the fuel, its the fuels resistance to pre-igniting and detonating (You probably knew that, I'm just setting up my point). A higher Octane does allow a higher compression ratio, but a higher compression ratio only increases the effiency of the thermal cycle, it also does not increase actual energy. Yes, increasing the thermal efficiency will help offset the inefficiency of having to burn more fuel for the same amount of energy. BUT, increasing compression ratio makes the engine harder to start, which is already a drawback on alcohol, its harder to start, especially when its cold or extemely moist. As well, to take advantage of this higher octane, requires you to rebuild your motor to raise its compression ratio, or for turbo vehicles, you could increase the turbo boost. You did not rebuild your motor to increase the compression ratio did you? Nor will the overwhelming majority of vehicle owners if they switch to E85. If you did, the vehicle could not be switched back to gasoline, unless you buy racing/aviation gasoline or spend lots of money on octane boosters. So, the discussion of octane is academic, unless it applies to E85/Alcohol only vehicles, which are not produced yet, as well, virtually no-one is modifying their vehicles to be E85/Alcohol only.
*For the most part, Alcohol does burn cleaner than gasoline. It does not produce HC emmissions, far far less CO/CO2 emissions, but it does produce NOx and a different emmission, Formaldahyde and several of its varations. The aldahyde emmissions are relatively low, but so was the lead of leaded gasoline and that proved to accumulate enough to cause alarm. As well, aldahyde's don't break down or scrubbed in the environment like CO/CO2 and HC's, they accumulate like lead. Burning cleaner has nothing to do with the energy the fuel produces, you can argue its efficiency, but its efficiency we can not exploit. Natural Gas burns extremely clean, that why we can use it as an open flame on stoves in homes and never suffer any effects of the open flame, Natural Gas won't get you more mileage (CNG is even harder to measure mileage, since it has to be stored under very high pressure).
*LPG has 92k BTU's per Gallon, a little more than E85 and a lot more than ethanol and methanol, but still less than gasoline. Comparing LPG is a little tougher, since its measured in Cubic Feet, not gallons.
*Your getting more than 20mpg out of a Ford Ranger had nothing to do with attributes of the fuel, you changed gear ratios and made the vehicle more efficient for the conditions you were using it, it was less efficient for other applications because of the new gear ratio. So if was used in another application, requiring the OEM gear ratios, it would be less efficient OR unable to perform the task at all, because it did not have the torque multiplication required for the amount of torque the engine produced. Nothing wrong with changing gear ratios, if it helps you, but it doesn't magically gain you something that wasn't there before, you make a trade-off, in this case you traded performance and capability for more efficiency in cruising down the road at low weight/load.
Remember, your motor was malfunctioning, thats why you got more mileage on E85. I was incorrect in the fact that I thought you should be getting almost less than half the mileage of gasoline, I was thinking back to figures and confusing ethanol with methanol figures. I think I threw out a figure of getting 48mpg on gasoline if your motor was working correctly. E85 sould have a energy density of 90.5k BTU's per gallon, about 72% of Gasoline. So, if I recalculate, if you got 25mpg on E85, you should have gotten about 34mpg under the same conditions with a properly functioning motor. You admitted your motor was malfunctioning and you didn't repaire it, which is probably why you got higher mileage on E85. I think thats realistic, especially since it was your EGR that was malfunctioning and causing pinging. That malfunction would kill engine power, most likely your PCM would respond with turning back ignition timing and severly reducing efficiency, but a alcohol based fuel would resist that pinging more, and allow the PCM to keep ignition timing at normal and return your lost efficiency.
*Octane has nothing to do with the amount of ENERGY in the fuel, its the fuels resistance to pre-igniting and detonating (You probably knew that, I'm just setting up my point). A higher Octane does allow a higher compression ratio, but a higher compression ratio only increases the effiency of the thermal cycle, it also does not increase actual energy. Yes, increasing the thermal efficiency will help offset the inefficiency of having to burn more fuel for the same amount of energy. BUT, increasing compression ratio makes the engine harder to start, which is already a drawback on alcohol, its harder to start, especially when its cold or extemely moist. As well, to take advantage of this higher octane, requires you to rebuild your motor to raise its compression ratio, or for turbo vehicles, you could increase the turbo boost. You did not rebuild your motor to increase the compression ratio did you? Nor will the overwhelming majority of vehicle owners if they switch to E85. If you did, the vehicle could not be switched back to gasoline, unless you buy racing/aviation gasoline or spend lots of money on octane boosters. So, the discussion of octane is academic, unless it applies to E85/Alcohol only vehicles, which are not produced yet, as well, virtually no-one is modifying their vehicles to be E85/Alcohol only.
*For the most part, Alcohol does burn cleaner than gasoline. It does not produce HC emmissions, far far less CO/CO2 emissions, but it does produce NOx and a different emmission, Formaldahyde and several of its varations. The aldahyde emmissions are relatively low, but so was the lead of leaded gasoline and that proved to accumulate enough to cause alarm. As well, aldahyde's don't break down or scrubbed in the environment like CO/CO2 and HC's, they accumulate like lead. Burning cleaner has nothing to do with the energy the fuel produces, you can argue its efficiency, but its efficiency we can not exploit. Natural Gas burns extremely clean, that why we can use it as an open flame on stoves in homes and never suffer any effects of the open flame, Natural Gas won't get you more mileage (CNG is even harder to measure mileage, since it has to be stored under very high pressure).
*LPG has 92k BTU's per Gallon, a little more than E85 and a lot more than ethanol and methanol, but still less than gasoline. Comparing LPG is a little tougher, since its measured in Cubic Feet, not gallons.
*Your getting more than 20mpg out of a Ford Ranger had nothing to do with attributes of the fuel, you changed gear ratios and made the vehicle more efficient for the conditions you were using it, it was less efficient for other applications because of the new gear ratio. So if was used in another application, requiring the OEM gear ratios, it would be less efficient OR unable to perform the task at all, because it did not have the torque multiplication required for the amount of torque the engine produced. Nothing wrong with changing gear ratios, if it helps you, but it doesn't magically gain you something that wasn't there before, you make a trade-off, in this case you traded performance and capability for more efficiency in cruising down the road at low weight/load.
Remember, your motor was malfunctioning, thats why you got more mileage on E85. I was incorrect in the fact that I thought you should be getting almost less than half the mileage of gasoline, I was thinking back to figures and confusing ethanol with methanol figures. I think I threw out a figure of getting 48mpg on gasoline if your motor was working correctly. E85 sould have a energy density of 90.5k BTU's per gallon, about 72% of Gasoline. So, if I recalculate, if you got 25mpg on E85, you should have gotten about 34mpg under the same conditions with a properly functioning motor. You admitted your motor was malfunctioning and you didn't repaire it, which is probably why you got higher mileage on E85. I think thats realistic, especially since it was your EGR that was malfunctioning and causing pinging. That malfunction would kill engine power, most likely your PCM would respond with turning back ignition timing and severly reducing efficiency, but a alcohol based fuel would resist that pinging more, and allow the PCM to keep ignition timing at normal and return your lost efficiency.
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langer1
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They also add lead to it and other things banned in the US.torfinn said:
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