Front Wishbone Help

Well, now that the Jeep's down again and I may be getting a daily driver, I've spent the last week searching through everything that might give me some insight (front wishbone, rear wishbone, double triangulated 4 links, front suspension in general, and Beezil, Beezil, Beezil), but I still feel like I have a lot of unanswered questions. Most of the pictures were useless red X's on almost all of the threads I found. This isn't the only board I've searched on, but I have yet to find a complete front wishbone thread, so I was hoping we could get into some depth while trying to stay focused on wishbones.

Some of the questions I have are:
-With a heim at the axle end of the wishbone, can/do the threads on the heim provide the vertical movement or does it need an uber complicated bearing like Beezil made?
-Which way should the heim/bushing be mounted?
-Would a RE SuperFlex Joint (or the like) work at the axle end of the wishbone?
-What's the ideal length for the links?
-Would it be possible to mount the wishbone (upper link(s)) to the lower links or would that be defeating the whole purpose?

I'm sure more questions will come up, but that's all I had off the top of my head.
Thanks,
Billy

I don't have firsthand experience, but I'll answer you according to my understanding.
*If you mount the wishbone to the lowers you lose the tri-link feature, it becomes a radius-arm setup and the upper arms don't offer side-to-side stability, so you'd have to keep the track bar. No need to do a wishbone if you want to do this.
*The threads in the heim don't provide any movement usually since they're locked in place with a locknut, they're just there for length adjustability.
*There have been people with the heim facing horizontal and some with it vertical. My opinion is that horizontal would be better to give better side-to-side stability.

xj92 said:

*If you mount the wishbone to the lowers you lose the tri-link feature, it becomes a radius-arm setup and the upper arms don't offer side-to-side stability, so you'd have to keep the track bar. No need to do a wishbone if you want to do this.

Click to expand...

oh, duh :dunce:

xj92 said:

*The threads in the heim don't provide any movement usually since they're locked in place with a locknut, they're just there for length adjustability.

Click to expand...

Anybody know what OneTon or VintageSpeed did for their vertical movement?

Thanks,
Billy

I think something like an RE joint would work really well there. It doesn't allow horizontal movement, so you maintain the rigid triangulation that you need to be able to eliminate the track bar. However, it still allows free rotation for flex.

A heim may work just as well and I believe that OneTon uses a big heim for his upper. I may be wrong. I would think you want the heim to be vertical, so you can mount it in double shear, sandwich it between the two plates. I don't think a joint in good condition should allow lateral movement.

I have no experience with either of these, really, and no fab experience, but that's the way I see it anyhow.

Phil Weeks said:

A heim may work just as well and I believe that OneTon uses a big heim for his upper. I may be wrong. I would think you want the heim to be vertical, so you can mount it in double shear, sandwich it between the two plates.

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Yeah, OneTon does use a (very large) heim for his, I was just wondering what gave it the movement equivilent to what Beezil's uber bearing provides. I remember quite a difference of opinion on the way the heim mounts in XJoachim rear 3 link thread. It would be possible to double sheer either way, but which way is the heim rated for more load?
Billy

You DO NOT need a complicated joint.

and you shouldn't run one either, there's no point in it really unless you want to for the challenge and fun.

I actually ENJOY doing things like that, its about the only reason I can give to do it.

go to a BIG heim.

simple, proven, and almost indestructable....

otherwise, consider using ALL HEIMS for the rest of the links....

I have 20 heims used on my jeep, and besides the timken bearing wishbone joint, don't have any other kind of joint....whats good about this is, if i break a joint, i only have to carry a couple-few spares....."common parts" are a good thing.......

Beezil said:

You DO NOT need a complicated joint.

and you shouldn't run one either, there's no point in it really unless you want to for the challenge and fun.

I actually ENJOY doing things like that, its about the only reason I can give to do it.

go to a BIG heim.

simple, proven, and almost indestructable....

otherwise, consider using ALL HEIMS for the rest of the links....

I have 20 heims used on my jeep, and besides the timken bearing wishbone joint, don't have any other kind of joint....whats good about this is, if i break a joint, i only have to carry a couple-few spares....."common parts" are a good thing.......

Click to expand...

I was hoping to reuse some of the long arm parts (Superflex joints and lower arms at least) that I have put 50 miles on since I got them. I do like the idea of the common parts, but is that your main reasoning?
Thanks,
Billy

JeepFreak21 said:

I was hoping to reuse some of the long arm parts (Superflex joints and lower arms at least) that I have put 50 miles on since I got them. I do like the idea of the common parts, but is that your main reasoning?
Thanks,
Billy

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You may have set the record for the shortest time on a new suspension before ripping it out and starting over. :laugh3:

CRASH

CRASH said:

You may have set the record for the shortest time on a new suspension before ripping it out and starting over. :laugh3:

CRASH

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We need a :laughcry: smiley.
Billy

JeepFreak21 said:

I was hoping to reuse some of the long arm parts (Superflex joints and lower arms at least) that I have put 50 miles on since I got them. I do like the idea of the common parts, but is that your main reasoning?
Thanks,
Billy

Click to expand...

yeah its my main reasoning, if you have other joints on hand, you might as well use them!

I'm a big fan of j-joints too.....I had four on hand when i did my set-up, I just couldn't use them in certain areas, since I have them stuffed in MINIMUM clearance areas.....

oh, almost forgot.......shaddup Nay, I still have the t-shirt.

I really don't like you!

"crash out loud"

(LOL)

heims absolutely SHOULD be mounted with the bolt verticle for the end of a wishbone. they are much stronger that way.

now that's not to say that is couldn't work with the bolt mounted horizontal, especially if you use a 1" or bigger heim, but if you're building from scratch you might as well do it the right way the first time.

also, you haven't made mention of what you're going to do for steering? with a wishbone and no trackbar your axle will travel straight vertically, which means you need either hi-steer (or crossover) with a very flat draglink, or full hydro steering.

mad maXJ said:

heims absolutely SHOULD be mounted with the bolt verticle for the end of a wishbone. they are much stronger that way.

now that's not to say that is couldn't work with the bolt mounted horizontal, especially if you use a 1" or bigger heim, but if you're building from scratch you might as well do it the right way the first time.

also, you haven't made mention of what you're going to do for steering? with a wishbone and no trackbar your axle will travel straight vertically, which means you need either hi-steer (or crossover) with a very flat draglink, or full hydro steering.

Click to expand...

I'm running hi steer and my drag link is pretty darn flat (And I may run a drop pitman arm). I don't plan on doing full hydro for quite a while. I'm convinced that this well create acceptable behavior on-road after reading the "CJ's didn't have trackbars" argument over and over again.
Billy

You might find that while you can build a wishbone strong enough to control lateral loads, it will still have enough "give" to contribute to mushing steering feel.

I suspect this is one of the reasons Beezil and OneTon run hydro steer.

JeepFreak21 said:

Some of the questions I have are:
-With a heim at the axle end of the wishbone, can/do the threads on the heim provide the vertical movement or does it need an uber complicated bearing like Beezil made?
-Which way should the heim/bushing be mounted?
-Would a RE SuperFlex Joint (or the like) work at the axle end of the wishbone?
-What's the ideal length for the links?
-Would it be possible to mount the wishbone (upper link(s)) to the lower links or would that be defeating the whole purpose?

Click to expand...

I went through something similar Freak, I didn't like my 3link + TB and it was basically undriveable at freeway speeds due to DW. If I tweaked the caster/toe & rotated the tires just right it was ok, but I wanted the suspension to be right. I spent a week or so on POR reading & reading until I understood all of the geometry that I THOUGHT I had a grip on, I was wrong in a few ways.

With the unibody & lots of lift you've got problems getting the link angle within an acceptable range. I had to lower my LCAs 2.5" below the frame rail to get my AD (anti dive) axis back & below my CG, this is important if you want the front braking/accelleration lift to be correct, like anything there are compromises.

The other factor about my suspension that I didn't like was body roll, with the TB you have 2 roll axises, one at the frame mount & one at the axle mount. This makes your rig roll harder to one side than the other & just generally sucks on coilovers & 12" lift. With the new wishbone mounted 7" above the axletube I have raised my roll axis to a point where it's just below my CG, body roll is much much improved and it's now balanced side to side.

Link separation is something you need to consider. If you're running larger tires you'll want more link separation to give the links the leverage they need to withstand hi-torque situations, this was another factor in dropping my LCAs below the frame & raising the center link mount. I have about 8.5" of link separation at the axle and 6.5" of link separation at the frame, I'm running 38.5s.

My links are 26.5" long (ctr - ctr), no magic number really. I moved the front axle forward about 1", which didn't change any clearances really because I also flattened my link angles and increased the arm length which keeps the axle from moving very far forward during articulation. Even with the wheelbase stretched this amount, my tires dont get any closer to the front bumper than they did before.

I kept the LCAs I was using previously & just tapped one end for a 4" long 1" dia bolt. I welded the JJs I cut off onto the end of the bolt to stretch the arm length & make it adjustable. (Similar ends to the Currie pre-fab ends)

I butchered the UCA I was using before & used one of it's JJs for my wishbone center link. The JJ has 23deg of movement and is plenty for dropping the axle to the limits of the 14" coilovers. I do have a center limit strap that I'll be mounting soon that will keep the axle from dropping anymore than 3" below ride height (at the center anyway). I used a center mounted JJ because I wanted to keep my wishbone simple & tight to the oilpan. I didn't want to move my axle forward a great deal or mount the wishbone ahead of the axle because this would affect arm length & geometry and my LCAs were already built. I currently have less than 2deg of caster change throughout the range of travel, this is good because I wanted to drive it on the freeway occassionallly.

One thing to consider when debating full hydro is the strain you remove from the upper wishbone. My cylinder is mounted directly to the axle so when I turn there is virtually no stress on the UCA at all, it's all pushed through the T/R into the axle. All the wishbone has to do is keep the body over the axle, that's it, no steering stress anymore. This is a big plus with big rubber. Just sucks that I had already welded in an ORGS SBS2 into my framerails......oh well, made a nice steering valve mount!

Sorry for the long reply but I thought you might want to hear my decisions & why. I'd use the joints you already have, Richard Burrow (FullSizeXJ) is runnnig a rear triangulated 3 link with a SuperFlex joint & he gets full travel out of his 16" SAWs, that's how I knew my 14s wouldn't be a big deal.

Here's pics of my 3link front completed:

http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?c=7ha7rx...n&x=0&y=-y9utwh

Here's the build pics of the 3link:

http://www.ofoto.com/I.jsp?c=7ha7rxr.8zze49dz&x=0&y=iejoin

Hope that helps, I'm very happy with my setup, it works great, flexes good & is driveable again. I just drove 200 miles to JV & back for my wedding and aside from the tire wobble from the 38.5" x 14.5" TSL SXs & beadlocks, all was well. No more DW.

-jb

are your C/O dual rate? If so, what spring rates are you using? 500/300?


-Red

vintagespeed said:

...
Sorry for the long reply but I thought you might want to hear my decisions & why....
Hope that helps, I'm very happy with my setup, it works great, flexes good & is driveable again. I just drove 200 miles to JV & back for my wedding and aside from the tire wobble from the 38.5" x 14.5" TSL SXs & beadlocks, all was well. No more DW.

-jb

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Thanks a lot for such a complete response man! That's really insightfully. The reason I don't want to do full hydro at the moment is because it kinda scares me for street driving. I don't want to have to trailer this thing to the 'Con and elsewhere! After making that drive to JV, how do you feel about that? Is it not as bad as the rumors?
Thanks,
Billy

EDIT: Looks perty damn good Vintage! Do you have any pics of the chassis side wishbone mount? It looks like it's inboard of the pseudo frame rails right at the point where it goes up for the front wheel wells?

Redcbr007 said:

are your C/O dual rate? If so, what spring rates are you using? 500/300?


-Red

Click to expand...

Yes, there's 2 coils which actually equal 1 progressive rate but most refer to this setup as dual rate.

500/300 would be pre-runner coil rates, I wanted soft & driveable for flex. If your coils are too stiff they wont flex, the back will do all the work. You have to think "balance".

-jb

JeepFreak21 said:

... Is it not as bad as the rumors?

Click to expand...

No, it's defintely NOT as bad as the rumors. It's a little faster than I'd like but you can have that adjusted or order a steering valve with more appropriate turn speed.

I have 2 kids & I didn't feel weird about driving it long highway miles with them onboard.

Would I daily drive it this way? Not if I had a long commute, but it really doesn't feel any different than stock steering. The only issue I have is that after driving for a while the steering wheel will slowly move around & wont be where it was when you left, the cylinder doesn't change it's volume but I think that the steering valve allows some fluid to leak from side to side thus changing where the steering wheel is in relation to the cylinder. Like I said it's minor & doesn't cause any ill effects.

The manual steering is a bit better than stock. It's the best steering I've ever had.

-jb

MaXJohnson said:

I suspect this is one of the reasons Beezil and OneTon run hydro steer.

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nope......was NEVER a reason....I know I'll never be able to get you to believe this, but my front suspension has way less give than a front leaf sprung vehicle...

ask anyone who has ever seen my rig "righted" if when the weight of the entire vehicle was side-loading the links, if they ever noticed the slightest give....

I've tested JUST the wishbone when it is disconnected from the axle....

using a pony 3/4" pipe clamp, I can't deflect the arm at all.


I went to hydro steer for one reason only.....to be able to steer big tires in the rocks.

vintagespeed said:

No, it's defintely NOT as bad as the rumors. It's a little faster than I'd like but you can have that adjusted or order a steering valve with more appropriate turn speed.

I have 2 kids & I didn't feel weird about driving it long highway miles with them onboard.

Would I daily drive it this way? Not if I had a long commute, but it really doesn't feel any different than stock steering. The only issue I have is that after driving for a while the steering wheel will slowly move around & wont be where it was when you left, the cylinder doesn't change it's volume but I think that the steering valve allows some fluid to leak from side to side thus changing where the steering wheel is in relation to the cylinder. Like I said it's minor & doesn't cause any ill effects.

The manual steering is a bit better than stock. It's the best steering I've ever had.

-jb

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That's really good to hear. Just for the record, what setup did you use for your hydro?
Billy