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Power steering pump?

J

Jeepcreep

NAXJA Forum User
Location
England
Hi,
I have a 1993 XJ 4.0 auto 114,000 and have a noise from the front of the engine, a bit like marbles in a jar or even a clanking sort of sound as someone said. I removed the serpentine belt and checked all the pulleys, no play in any of them and they all spin freely. I ran the engine briefly without the belt and it was smooth and quiet, (well there were no nasty noises) the noise goes away at certain speeds and is worse at idle. The harmonic balancer looks ok and runs true with the engine running. I have recently fitted a new water pump, my question is could it be the P.S pump, how long do they last? and what would be the symptoms if it was worn out?

Thanks in advance
 
Power steering fluid doesn't last forever, it shears and becomes thinner. A fluid change may not stop the noise, but may reduce it some (or a lot). A simple test, dip a pencil in your (cold) power steering reservoir, see how fast the oil runs off the end. Try the same in your top off bottle of power steering fluid and see if there is a significant difference in the flow rate.
The idlers are sometimes hard to diagnose, the bearings don't make much noise unless they are under load (belt tight). I usually grab the pulley and try to feel side play. With a very small twisting motion against the axis of rotation.
You can usually spin them fast with the belt off and hear the rattle of loose bearings.
 
Is there a reason for suspecting your ps pump? Does it intensify while turning? When does the noise seem the worst?

It could very well be that, however there are a lot of other things that might produce the rattling that you're talking about. I had a similar noise (about as similar as you can get in description at least) under my hood, and it turned out to be a loose nut on my fan clutch...which was spinning off-axis and producing a rattle. The reason I mention this is:

1 )it seems that you suspect something in the front area of the engine compartment

2) the fact that you replaced your h2o pump, as I did mine, and its directly connected to the fan clutch. I have an 84 but I believe that your year has a belt-driven fan/h2o pump as well.

3) I noticed that my rattle was more prevolent at idle/creeping in traffic, and the fan works a lot harder at lower speeds to keep the engine cool. Which may be why you suspect an idle-rattle

Hope that helps -Ed
 
Last edited:
firefight343 said:
Is there a reason for suspecting your ps pump? Does it intensify while turning? When does the noise seem the worst?

It could very well be that, however there are a lot of other things that might produce the rattling that you're talking about. I had a similar noise (about as similar as you can get in description at least) under my hood, and it turned out to be a loose nut on my fan clutch...which was spinning off-axis and producing a rattle. The reason I mention this is:

1 )it seems that you suspect something in the front area of the engine compartment

2) the fact that you replaced your h2o pump, as I did mine, and its directly connected to the fan clutch. I have an 84 but I believe that your year has a belt-driven fan/h2o pump as well.

3) I noticed that my rattle was more prevolent at idle/creeping in traffic, and the fan works a lot harder at lower speeds to keep the engine cool. Which may be why you suspect an idle-rattle

Hope that helps -Ed
Click to expand...

There are several bearings up front that can make that sort of noise...

Power Steering Pump
Alternator
Aircon Compressor
and two Idler pullys.

(Note - the fan clutch runs on an idler, not the water pump itself. Also, the fan clutch doesn't have bearings in it.)

Often, you can find out which bearing is going silly with the belt removed by checking for "side play" in the pully - if you can move it from side to side, get a replacement. It's easier to replace the alternator or pump outright. Replacing the compressor usually wants a shop. And, if it's an idler, it depends on which one - the upper idler (near the thermostat housing) can have the bearing replaced, and it costs about five bucks. The lower idler (under the aircon compressor) is pressed into the bracket, and requires a press with room or just replacing the bracket outright (the upper idler bearing can be replaced using a bench vise.)
 
5-90 said:
(Note - the fan clutch runs on an idler, not the water pump itself. Also, the fan clutch doesn't have bearings in it.)

Often, you can find out which bearing is going silly with the belt removed by checking for "side play" in the pully - if you can move it from side to side, get a replacement. It's easier to replace the alternator or pump outright. Replacing the compressor usually wants a shop. And, if it's an idler, it depends on which one - the upper idler (near the thermostat housing) can have the bearing replaced, and it costs about five bucks. The lower idler (under the aircon compressor) is pressed into the bracket, and requires a press with room or just replacing the bracket outright (the upper idler bearing can be replaced using a bench vise.)
Click to expand...
A very valid point--the rattling from my fan clutch was due to the fact that the fan itself was knocking against the clutch b/c of a loose nut. If I may ask...why suspect a bearing? I don't mean to steal the thread or anything, just trying to understand what to look for. If it is a bearing then I absolutely agree with what 5-90 (who has helped me out plenty of times before :)) said above.

Ed
 
I'm wondering f he didn't forget to tighten some of the bolts on the power steering bracket, when he did the water pump. As many times as I've had that thing on and off, I still forget to tighten some of the hidden bolts on occasion.
Check the bolts in the front of your idler pulleys also, I've had them come loose. A little dab of Loc Tite can save a lot of grief.
 
firefight343 said:
A very valid point--the rattling from my fan clutch was due to the fact that the fan itself was knocking against the clutch b/c of a loose nut. If I may ask...why suspect a bearing? I don't mean to steal the thread or anything, just trying to understand what to look for. If it is a bearing then I absolutely agree with what 5-90 (who has helped me out plenty of times before :)) said above.

Ed
Click to expand...

Granted, I usually end up having to make some small number of assumptions in cases like this (which I really don't like doing!) because I don't know the history of the vehicle and I can't see it.

However, I've usually tracked noises like this (clicking/growling/rattling on the front of the engine) down to some variety of roller or ball bearing - which means accessories. Internal engine bearings are all "oil film/slipper" bearings with no extra rollers, balls, or other moving parts - so it's a different sort of noise.
 
Right on, thanks 5-90. I guess I was leaning more on the loose nut rattle like 8Mud.

8Mud said:
I'm wondering f he didn't forget to tighten some of the bolts on the power steering bracket, when he did the water pump. As many times as I've had that thing on and off, I still forget to tighten some of the hidden bolts on occasion.
Check the bolts in the front of your idler pulleys also, I've had them come loose. A little dab of Loc Tite can save a lot of grief.
Click to expand...

Good luck JeepCreep
 
Thanks for all the advice, I will go back and check all the things you mentioned. I'm pretty sure it's one of the belt driven accessories because without the belt on the noise goes away. The steering does not make any unusual noises while driving, maybe it's not the P.S pump after all. It's a head scratcher all right. I will do some more detective work and if I find what it is will let you know.

Thanks again.
 
When the front bearing on my 99 PS pump went bad, all I heard was the steady sound of that bearing. It did not change with steering. The bearing was not loose, just noisy, and there was nothing wrong with the pump innards. You should be able to detect that with the belt off if you spin the pump pulley. It should not feel or sound rough or jumpy.

Do make sure you got all the nuts tight on the fan, etc. when you redid the water pump.
 
Latest update. I have now taken the clutch fan off completely, it's winter over here! and I still have the rattle, so it's not that. At certain engine speeds the noise disappears and it's as smooth as silk and no noise. It's too cold at the moment to get out and have look underneath, as soon as it warms up I'll do some more checking. I've got to find it soon as it's driving me MAD!

Thanks for all the tips
 
Jeepcreep said:
Latest update. I have now taken the clutch fan off completely, it's winter over here! and I still have the rattle, so it's not that. At certain engine speeds the noise disappears and it's as smooth as silk and no noise. It's too cold at the moment to get out and have look underneath, as soon as it warms up I'll do some more checking. I've got to find it soon as it's driving me MAD!

Thanks for all the tips
Click to expand...
Don't forget to check the idler bearings. Those can change their rattle sometimes with speed, depending on how the fan belt flaps.
 
Jeepcreep, any updates?

I have this same noise, and I think its my PS pump as I can put my hand on it while running and feel the strong vibrations. How hard is it to replace this? What about taking the pulley off and on? Special tools?
 
Red97XJ said:
Jeepcreep, any updates?

I have this same noise, and I think its my PS pump as I can put my hand on it while running and feel the strong vibrations. How hard is it to replace this? What about taking the pulley off and on? Special tools?
Click to expand...

Yes, special tool required. The pulley is pressed on very tight, and easy to damage. You need a P/S pulley puller designed to engage the groove in the hub. You might be able to rent or borrow one.

Assuming your handle indicates your year, a 97 is not too hard to do. Easier than a 93. If you live in rust country, presoak the hose fittings for a while before you tackle it, and be careful when removing. Sometimes the fitting seizes to the tubing, so when you turn it, you'll twist the tubing and wreck it. If possible, use a flare nut wrench, and if you see evidence of seizure, go very slowly. Once you have cracked it a little loose, wiggle the wrench back and forth repeatedly, while drenching with penetrant, and sometimes it will free up.
 
Yes there is a special tool. It's basically a glorified bolt and nut with a bearing attached to press it on. Also I did not see any mention of belt tension with the bearing noise problem. I have seen that alone cause that sort of noise.
 
If the belt is too tight it can put too much pressure on the bearing causing noise and eventually failure.
 
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