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u turn steering/pitman arm questions

mikeyl

mikeyl

NAXJA Forum User
Location
yorba linda ca
hey all, i recently installed a u-turn steering and have found i cannot get the wheels to turn "stop to stop" on the axel. the steering box reaches the end of its turning and the knuckles are still not near the stops. best i can figure is i need a longer piman arm. judging from the track bar/drag link angles i need to keep the stock drop, or less, but definatly longer. probly 1/2" to 1". i put my wj arm back on there becuase it's slightly longer (1/4" ?), but the extra 3/4" drop gives it a bit more bump steer than the stocker. before i crawl under every truck in the junk yard i was wondering if anyone has looked at different pitman arms and have an idea which vehicles i should concentrate with. i know most of the time we are looking for arms with more drop.
thanks in advance,
mike
 
The problem is that your steering box has internal stops. The box was probably built out for a Camaro or other vehicle whose tires turn less than a Jeeps. To solve the problem correctly and not jerry rig it, you will need to remove the steering box and the internal stops.
 
Jackhill442 said:
The problem is that your steering box has internal stops. The box was probably built out for a Camaro or other vehicle whose tires turn less than a Jeeps. To solve the problem correctly and not jerry rig it, you will need to remove the steering box and the internal stops.
Click to expand...

A longer pitman arm is not jerry rigging.
 
uncc civilengineer said:
Also I was under the impression that a drop arm is actually going to shorten your steering range?
Click to expand...

The horizontal distance from the center of your steering gear shaft to the drag link would be the same, giving you the same amount of travel. If you go with a longer pitman you gain the extra bit of travel.
 
the steering box is realativley new, and is the the 3 turn to lock unit. napa had it as the only replacement now for the cherokee. it is a 4 bolt unit, but the 3 holes line up fine and the original actually had a blank casting where the new one has a hole.
when i was running my standard ,inverted y,steering with the wj pitman arm my 35"s would hit the lca on the drivers side slightly.
with the stock xj arm on now, the wheels will not even approach it. the wj arm is slightly longer but still there is about(from memory) a 1/3" between the knuckle and the axel stop bolt. also the small bit of extra drop the wj arm gives does affect bump steer a bit, though it is well inside the liveable range.
interesting that you had more turning uncivil, maybe my set-up is off,though it seems to ride decent and be symetric.
also as to longer drop/less length, it depends on how the drop is done. if you heat up your pitman arm and re-bend it , then you will indeed make it shorter. but the distance is eye to eye on a imaginary horizontal line so a drop arm can be made to be both more drop and longer.
all i need is longer over stock with maybe even a little less drop.
how much drop over stock is the waggoneer arm?
also ,opening the box and removing stops seems more like jerri rigging to me than a pitman arm swap. i can imagine the engineers put stops in there so you don't damage the internals by over driving the sector shaft. though i am not an expert and it is possible margin is enought to make up for it....
 
When you buy a box from Napa, you have no idea what car it came out of, especially if it is 3.0 turns (XJ boxes are 3.5). They just pool them all and then rebuild them. A box meant for a Jeep will have NO internal stops, so no, that would not be jerry rigging it, whereas using a pitman arm not equipped from the factory is a jerry rig. With a longer one, you will get quicker steering and the draglink will be closer to the tie rod...not smart.
 
mikeyl said:
all i need is longer over stock with maybe even a little less drop.
how much drop over stock is the waggoneer arm?
quote]

I think they are right abou the same amount of drop
Click to expand...
 
look in any aftermarket shop selling quality jeep parts. a 3 turn is available though i stand corrected it is actually 3 1/8 turns. if you are running bigger tires, even with offset you would be hitting the stops or the lca's before the full 1 3/4 turns to each side. i'll check the part numbers, i believe this is the box that comes in the dodge trucks. all the holes line up perfectly.
anyway if you actually read my post you may have noticed that i had no problem making the stops before the "u-turn" system. in fact , i had to add a washer behind the stop to keep the tires from rubbing too hard on the lca, when i put on the wj dropped pitman arm to address minor bumpsteer caused by the lift. which i hope you didn't add to your rig jack, it isn't stock length and that would not be smart.. by pushing the drag link out with the u-turn configuration it changes the ackerman angle and so needs a longer arm. i guess i should have explained the u-turn system. a pair of "ears" are added to the top of the d30 knuckles. these are held by 2 bolts that hold the unit bearing and and a bolt bolt thru the old drag link/ tie rod holes. the drag link then goes directly to the passenger knuckle forward of the original and the tie rod is a wheel to wheel link. i have plenty of room between the drag link and tie rod. there is no hard stop in the box (just like a reaaaaaaaaaal jeep box) but unless your sector shaft completely unscrews out of the box and falls out ,it does actually reach a point where no more steering movement occurs.

and brian, thanks for the info. i will go look for the waggy pitman
 
mikeyl said:
look in any aftermarket shop selling quality jeep parts. a 3 turn is available though i stand corrected it is actually 3 1/8 turns. if you are running bigger tires, even with offset you would be hitting the stops or the lca's before the full 1 3/4 turns to each side. i'll check the part numbers, i believe this is the box that comes in the dodge trucks. all the holes line up perfectly.
anyway if you actually read my post you may have noticed that i had no problem making the stops before the "u-turn" system. in fact , i had to add a washer behind the stop to keep the tires from rubbing too hard on the lca, when i put on the wj dropped pitman arm to address minor bumpsteer caused by the lift. which i hope you didn't add to your rig jack, it isn't stock length and that would not be smart.. by pushing the drag link out with the u-turn configuration it changes the ackerman angle and so needs a longer arm. i guess i should have explained the u-turn system. a pair of "ears" are added to the top of the d30 knuckles. these are held by 2 bolts that hold the unit bearing and and a bolt bolt thru the old drag link/ tie rod holes. the drag link then goes directly to the passenger knuckle forward of the original and the tie rod is a wheel to wheel link. i have plenty of room between the drag link and tie rod. there is no hard stop in the box (just like a reaaaaaaaaaal jeep box) but unless your sector shaft completely unscrews out of the box and falls out ,it does actually reach a point where no more steering movement occurs.

and brian, thanks for the info. i will go look for the waggy pitman
Click to expand...

upset?

I read your post... I also ran the ORO U-turn (Gen 2 and Gen 3) for around 9 months..Same tires/wheels...(pre ORO/post ORO) I had the same if not too much steering, not a loss like you're talking about??? Sure you installed everything correctly? Im banking you did b/c it was probably the easiset thing I have installed on the jeep...

Also you seem to know quite a bit about about XJ's from looking at how long you've been here and your sig... well why not just pick up a 4-bolt YJ box (3:1 ratio) and hook it up to TNT's 4-bolt conversion kit? I mean 4-bolt boxes are stronger than the stock 3-bolt but only if you use that 4th bolt..

The ORO is a good investment though, I actually made some $$ off mine... But I did get tired of wearing out TRE's so quickly. I mean they were wearing out faster than Heims? Maybe you'll see different results. Its a good kit and I ran it w/o a stabilizer and had very minimal (if any) bumpsteer but you'd benefit from relocating the trackbar bracket on the axle end.

I dont know what went wrong or maybe mine was wrong but I didn't have any loss in steering at all?
 
lol, maybe just a little upset civil!
i usually don't get ticked off here, but it just bit me today. musta carried over from work. i actually was going to apoligise in the thread but realised "i was pissy".
anyway , the funny thing is ,the guy who i bought it off of,here on naxja, said he had ackerman angle/steering issues. i wonder if there is an oddity to this unit?
i'm just lazy about the extra bolt hole on my unit. with the c-rock plate and the m.o.r.e. steering brace" and the winch bumper,not much moves up there. but i will be the first to admit i am wrong about lots of stuff, so i take my own ideas with 2 grains of salt. i've had the rig on the hammers,rubicon and moab as well as other so. cal/nor. cal local stuff so i think i have an idea, but it's always a learning experience. my impression ,up to my unit ,was what you experienced. it is quite possible i have something not right, but as you said it is pretty straight forward.
thanks for your info, and for giving me some crap, i needed it! :laugh3:
 
uncc civilengineer said:
The ORO is a good investment though, I actually made some $$ off mine... But I did get tired of wearing out TRE's so quickly. I mean they were wearing out faster than Heims? Maybe you'll see different results. Its a good kit and I ran it w/o a stabilizer and had very minimal (if any) bumpsteer but you'd benefit from relocating the trackbar bracket on the axle end.
Click to expand...

civil,
why were your TRE's wearind out so quickly? i just ordered my ORO U-Turn steering, now i'm wondering if i should worry about the issues in this thread.
 
Hey Mikey,

You have a YJ steering box. There is even a kit for it to utilize that 4th hole on the XJ if you wanted..

It has the same amount of movement at the pitman, just a different ratio internally. Some people like it more, some like it less.

I have a spare XJ steering box sitting at my dad's if you wanted to try and swap it out, just to rule out the box. It would take us about an hour.
 
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