Chrystler VS AMC...pros and cons!

Just want to hear a little input about the cheerokee.

the AMC rigs ran the Renix system, it's rather bulletproof, and easy to diag with a DMM.
Chrysler one's got the Ho moniker, a better cylinder head an OBD compliant electronics, they made a little more power.
Over all, I like the renix system, but AMC's interior wiring and the use of fusible links sucks, as does the dealer only starter relay that's $50.
My opinion:
AMC built them stronger and tougher, but Chryco fix all of the stupid wiring issues and made them require less maintenance.

I agree with you completely. I can't stand all of the electrial issues on the early cherokees but i love the renix built parts.

Well I own An AMC and a Mopar both.
1985 XJ Laredo 2.8L (.60 over) Comp Cams mild cam no cat 2.25 exhaust, stock intake
Pros: Cheap to work on i.e. lots of chevy stuff in them. All the trim in the AMC seems to be of much better quality than the Mopar. The chassis seems to be alot tougher too from all the steering to the rear sway bar everything is beefier and looks better. Stronger old style wing window latches. That and I just like the AMC name better than Chrysler.
Cons: Very weak from factory 2.8L v6. Horrible In dash components and I mean everything!!!! Crappy shift linkage for the auto! Weak front axle in the cv type shafts!
1988 Xj Laredo 4.0L Stock 235/75/15 LT ties on 3.5 back spaced 15x8" soft 8's
Pros: Much more power than 2.8L. Dash stuff much better (for the most part) Better u Joint axle shaft.
Cons: Way too much electrical wiring and vacumm to hasle with!!! Slush box POS AW4 never shifts right! ToothPick weak tierods and track bar. Bushings are weak! Interior trim is crappy!
Thats about it for now!

I cant wait to see what 5-90 has to say...Ill probably agree with most of it. And since i have a renix (amc) and 1985XJLaredo is the only person i have heard of with a Chrysler 88XJ?? Mine is riddled with the AMC logo everywhere, engine bay, door sticker, glovebox, even the keys!! 1985XJLaredo, i believe you have two AMC's!!!

AMC Good: most people that sell these things are usually seriously fed up with the RENIX system acting up because they do not understand it, sooo, this means a cheap score 9 1/2 times out of 10.
AMC Bad: Trying to figure out WTF someone did to the thing while they tried to get it to run, then having to start chasing down the wiring troubles that started this whole mess in the 1st place! (Would it really have been THAT difficult to design the harness better in the 1st place?)
AMC REALLY Good: 300,00 miles or better possible out of engine!
AMC Good: 6 cyl eng. can "relatively" easily be switched for V-8 with minimal drama.
AMC Bad: Keeping that "relatively" easily swapped-in V-8 COOL.
Chrysler Good: Recalls?
Chrysler Bad: Recalls....and more recalls
Chrysler Good: Frontend/ interior updated.
Chrysler BAD: Block/head design "updated". Think "cracked head, borken mount bolts for (mainly) passenger side of motor. STUPID alt. design that needs the ECU to turn on the Alt. (WTF).
Chrysler Bad: NO EXTERNAL fuel filter- now, you pretty much run it til the pump goes, then replace the whole F%#*&%@* thing!!!
Chrysler BAD: NO MORE XJ!!!! NO MORE 4.0. Now just stupid FWD based V-6 powered Cute Ute (Liberty, Commander [BIG PILE], Compass, etc....).

88XJSport said:

I cant wait to see what 5-90 has to say...Ill probably agree with most of it. And since i have a renix (amc) and 1985XJLaredo is the only person i have heard of with a Chrysler 88XJ?? Mine is riddled with the AMC logo everywhere, engine bay, door sticker, glove box, even the keys!! 1985XJLaredo, i believe you have two AMC's!!!

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I have 5 point stars all over my 88. Chrysler door badge. The keys do say American Motors just like my 85. The vac diagram says chrysler on it. Now a lot of the wiring says AMC on it behind the dash. Hell the power window control says Ford on both my 85 and 88 lol.
I consider the 88 a Chrysler because Chrysler finished buying the majority share of AMC from Renault in mid August of 87, I see Chrysler stuff all over it, the V.I.N. # is actually a Chrysler number not an AMC number, and when I contact Chrysler they can give me all of the info on it. IE part numbers, previous owners, build sheets, and recall info.
Most of the stuff that I see on mine that says AMC has to do with the engine controls.
I found a site on some of the sensors and controls: http://www.lunghd.com/Tech_Articles/Engine/Basic_Sensors_Diagnostics.htm

Ok, lets get one thing clear. Just because Chrysler bought out AMC doesn't mean all AMC engineers got fired. They probably just got a new nametags and more capital to put their ideas to work for a better product. The biggest reason I'm told for the buyout of AMC was for the XJ itself.

My point? Well my point is that many of the improvements to the XJ from Chrysler could have very well come from old AMC engineers. It would have been irresponsible of Chrysler to put engineers on an team that had no idea how the XJ was built. So that's why I think AMC engineers had a hand in the later years of the XJ.

The basic XJ is the same and the minor differences are just a matter of preference I suppose. I like the 97-99 models because they are the best of what Chrysler had before tightening emissions regulations brought engine performance down a bit (the 0331 head that likes to crack and more catalytic converters).

Anyway all XJ's are basically the same thing no matter who made it. It's like the old SJ's (Grand Wagoneers). Kaiser designed it, and AMC put a new grille on it with a slightly bigger engine and called it a new model, lol.

1985xjlaredo said:

I have 5 point stars all over my 88. Chrysler door badge. The keys do say American Motors just like my 85. The vac diagram says chrysler on it. Now a lot of the wiring says AMC on it behind the dash. Hell the power window control says Ford on both my 85 and 88 lol.
I consider the 88 a Chrysler because Chrysler finished buying the majority share of AMC from Renault in mid August of 87, I see Chrysler stuff all over it, the V.I.N. # is actually a Chrysler number not an AMC number, and when I contact Chrysler they can give me all of the info on it. IE part numbers, previous owners, build sheets, and recall info.
Most of the stuff that I see on mine that says AMC has to do with the engine controls.
I found a site on some of the sensors and controls: http://www.lunghd.com/Tech_Articles/Engine/Basic_Sensors_Diagnostics.htm

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yeah, in 88 they were owned by chrysler, but all the parts were still AMC. chyrsler didnt redesign anything until 1991 with the HO engine. i have a 89 that still says AMC all over it, and a 90 thats exactly the same and says chrysler on the majority of it.

-Tim

It took Chrysler a few years to de-ramblerize the XJ. I would consider the 88-90 transitional, still more AMC than Chrysler, despite some evolution and some parts takeover. As far as 4.0's go, this makes the 87 the crowning achievement of AMC. Considering that the 4.0/ AW4 combination was new that year, its durability and quality make it a pretty impressive first-year model. 91 marks the beginning of the Mopar fuel injection system, but even then it took a while before they changed over the seats and the steering column, and a few more (97) before they changed the body and interior significantly.

They all have their virtues. I think the AMC bodies seem to have been a little more resistant to rot, and a little better stamped out. My 95 is a rustbucket, and all the panels seem just a little wrinkly, despite its obviously hit-free life. The 87 looked better made, and although it rotted too, some parts, such as the rocker panels, didn't go nearly as quickly. The roof rot also seems worse on the later ones. My 95 has puddles on the floor all the time from various undetectable leaks, and has always had a cold draft under the dash that I have not been able to trace.

The AMC era paint had terrible clear coat problems, which seem to have disappeared some time in the 90's. My stepson's 93 never had this, nor does the 95.

The Mopar era AX15 5-speed is certainly an improvement over the Peugeot BA10 that AMC put in. I found both the Renix and Mopar injection systems well designed and relatively trouble free, but the Mopar has an improved crank position sensor, and the injectors don't leak so readily. The REnix era cooling system, although it works all right when it works, is a little harder to keep healthy, and the plastic pressure tank tends to crack. The Mopar OBDI is pretty handy. OBD II of course is handier still. Renix systems require a little more sleuthing sometimes to diagnose.

Wiring issues have been mentioned. The 87 had many connector and harness issues, and in general the later ones are a bit improved in that department, although all of my XJ's have had some problems with wiring, bad grounds, corroded light connectors, bad connectors, and in the case of the 93, a defective splice deep in the fuel injection harness that was a real PITA to track down. All XJ's have cheap wiring of absolutely minimal gauge, but they've improved some of the connectors over the years.

The 99 feels more solid and tight than the 95. The 95 seats were a definite step down from the 87, and the Mopar steering column sucks. The wiper switch has fewer intermittent settings, the horn buttons are never where you need them, and it's almost impossible to signal in a hurry without flicking the wipers to the wash position, whereupon they wipe the dry scratchy windshield 3 times. The previous Saginaw column was better. The 97-up column is better too.

Interior storage post 97 is awful. It was never very good, but on the 99 it's pathetic. The only thing they improved was the cupholders.

AMC era 4.0 engines seem not to have had the piston slap problems that plague the later ones. My 87 was quiet even after 200K miles. The 95 has slapped since I got it at 110K, but after another 150K it seems trivial.

The early 4.0's had overboosted power steering. Later ones have a little heavier feel. Renix era brakes were marginal, and although I've never had ABS, I hear that the ABS was particularly problematic, subject to various recalls and extra warranties. By 93, the brakes had gotten pretty strong. The brakes on the 95 and 99 are pretty powerful. All XJ rear brakes are crap, and the self adjusters a joke, but that's more a general complaint about American drum brakes. My 95 has gone over 260 thousand miles with the original drums and rotors, though!

Of course the main thing wrong with Chrysler and the XJ is that they stopped making them!

As J99XJ says, they're all XJ's and they're all good. I must take exception to one detail of his report regarding the SJ. It's true Kaiser designed it and AMC continued it with a new grille, but they also disembarrassed it of what might possibly be the worst engine ever made, certainly the worst ever put in a Jeep, and incidentally the only contribution Kaiser made to the Jeep engine line, since they kept the Willys designs or borrowed from AMC and GMC for all the others. I'm referring to the infamous "Tornado" OHC 6, which like some other historically bad engines (e.g. the Chevy Vega, the Ramber Aluminum V8, the Crosley Cobra come to mind) was a brilliant and innovative design which had a host of virtues, as long as you didn't actually use it.

Well said.

It does suck that they got rid of the XJ. I really think they should have kept making them.

But they should have at least took the new Dodge Nitro model and called it the new Cherokee except with solid axles, a higher ride height, a rubicon transfer case, and a more "cherokee like" look. I think it would have sold well.

I read somewhere that AMC was responsible for over 95% of the ZJ which actually began the design phase in 1985.

I consider 90's and older true AMC's. Yes there's some Chrysler logos but the design stayed relatively unchanged, with minor if any changes.

1991 saw a good bit of change for the XJ besides the High Output engine. Instrument panels were reworked but kept the same look, electronics were changed out, heating/cooling system changes, electronic speed signal sender as well as many other things.

Although the 97+ XJ's were designed completely under Chrysler they still maintained the same unit-body construction and body panels remained the same minus fenders, header panel, tailgate.

Last but not least the D30 front axle setup originally designed soley by AMC is used up until '06 in TJ's with only minor changes. Maybe it lives on in the TK but I'm unsure.

jeepnuts311 said:

yeah, in 88 they were owned by chrysler, but all the parts were still AMC. chyrsler didnt redesign anything until 1991 with the HO engine. i have a 89 that still says AMC all over it, and a 90 thats exactly the same and says chrysler on the majority of it.

-Tim

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My 90 also has chrysler all over it. So in 90 the parts were still AMC but just badged as Chrysler? Interesting

With the Renix XJ, they did well. Some of the changes Chrysler made, were just changes and not actual improvements (some, but not all). The next upgrade they did the same thing, some of the changes were actual improvements, some just changes.
IMO if they would have put more effort into improvements and not just busy work engineering changes or cost cutting measures, the XJ towards the end could have had an even a better reputation for longevity.
Funny, my wife was actually the Jeep fan, bought an FSJ in 78 or 79, then a Cherokee in 87, then another in 96. Somewhere along the line I became a convert. I gave up on my Dodges and changed to Jeep. I usually had a Jeep around, A J20, a CJ as a kid and later a YJ for hunting. But they were more of a work vehicle than a daily driver type.
When I first checked out my wifes brand new 87, I remember thinking what kind of crap is this. I was proved, wrong, wrong , wrong in so many ways.
Even some of the Renault stuff was Ok in it's own way, though a bit primitive. Some of the small motors and such, can be rebuilt (brushes changed), instead of just repalcing the whole unit.
I always did notice some parralells in Jeep and Chrysler engineering and in corporate thinking. They'd find a good part, from a dependable concessionare and stick with it for decades sometimes longer. Chevy seemed to engineer, to limit parts interchangability, every few years or so.

Zoro said:

I read somewhere that AMC was responsible for over 95% of the ZJ which actually began the design phase in 1985.

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TRUE! Most people don't know the ZJ is mostly AMC's work. Chrysler just "introduced it." They started work on it right after they introduced the XJ in late 83.

88XJSport said:

TRUE! Most people don't know the ZJ is mostly AMC's work. Chrysler just "introduced it." They started work on it right after they introduced the XJ in late 83.

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Kinda makes me wonder how long the XJ was in the design phase

Long enough to build something good...

AMC tended to cast their blocks a bit heavier, which made for stronger engines and "extended rebuildability" (some RENIX blocks will go from a stock 3.875" bor to a full 4.000" - you can't do that with ChryCo!)

The RENIX control system (RENault/bendIX-King) was a little strange, but easier to work on than the old Ford DuraSpark (I think,) and most troubleshooting can be done with a $10 multimeter. You are limited in what "code scanners" you can get (there are about three that will actually work with it - starting at $1400,) but you don't really need them. Also, being "pre-OBD," the RENIX system does not "store" or "throw" codes at you to interpret - troubleshooting is entirely upon you (oddly enough, I prefer it that way. I never did like OBD, it's wrong about half the time anyhow.)

AMC did tend to put a little more quality and care into their work - a heavier gage of sheetmetal, heavier engine castings, and I'm mildly surprised that they didn't actually forge the 242 crankshafts! They did saddle us with that Peugeot abortion for a few years (I've been through four of them in the last five...) but that was probably a product of the alliance with Renault.

Given the design philosophy we saw from AMC, I'm also mildly surprised that the XJ didn't come out with D44/D30 or D44/D44 axles - Hell, a good portion of the J-trucks came with D60-2/D44 axles without any trouble at all. The disconnect Dana 30 was something else that they shouldn't have bothered with, I think, just for the sake of saving a few mileage points. I blame CAFE standards for that - there are better ways to solve the problem.

A lot of the RENIX sensors and such are all standard GM parts - notable exceptions being the Throttle Position Sensor (?) and the Crankshaft Position Sensor (?) All the rest are Chevvy parts from the era, which makes them easier to find. Now, if I can just find out what Ford they took the distributor off of...

The C101 bulkhead connector at the firewall wasn't really a bright idea, but that was eliminated by ChryCo (and I plan to rework the underhood wiring on mine anyhow - only I'll probably use bulkhead Amphenols, and divide the subharnesses a bit more logically.)

The AMC era paint having clearcoat problems wasn't due to AMC, since all American automakers had clearcoat issues from 1985 or so to about 1993. That was due to the EPA saying "you can't use lacquer anymore," clamping down on VOCs (Volatile Organic Components - fumes) in paint, and they were trying to work out what to replace it with. Most of the recalls in general in the late 1980's were for paint issues, once they got the two-part urethane and clearcoat sorted out. GM was even worse about paint in that timeframe.

On the whole, the XJ was well-designed, the MJ followed that, and even the ZJ wasn't too bad. I'd like to have seen what AMC would have come up with next - they seemed to do a fairly good job of keeping the beancounters out of the engineers' hair.

Recent Jeep History...

1984 - XJ Introduced for this model year.
1986 - MJ Introduced for this model year.
1987 - XJ/MJ front clips redesigned for the AMC242 I6 for this model year.
1988 - AMC bought by Lee Iacocca/Chrysler for the Jeep marque (that was all he wanted, but AMC wouldn't sell Jeep. So, he just bought AMC in toto.) XJ/MJ continue production as before.
1989 - Peugeot BA-10/5 replaced with Aisin AX-15 mid-year.
1990 - XJ/MJ undergo slight changes to accept the Chrysler OBD-I control system (a step forward?) Instrument panel changed. Saginaw steering column retained - just the locks were changed from Briggs & Stratton/AMC/GM to Chrysler double-cut. Door locks changed to match - "one key."
1992 - Last year of production for the MJ,
1993 - ZJ introduced for this model year. Last AMC design to go into production, with some changes for ChryCo-specific parts. Used either AMC242 or MOPAR318 engine.
1994/1995 - I'd have to check timing on this, but I think this was about when Daimler/Benz bought ChryCo, making the new "Daimler/Chrysler" company. A definite step backwards... After all, it was Daimler/Benz that put IFS under the Unimog, "to improve road manners." Who would buy a 'Mog that cares about road manners?
1996 - OBD-II introduced for all vehicles.
1997 - Slight redesign of the XJ (more "edge rounded," I've heard it said.) Interior changes. Use of ChryCo steering column to replace Saginaw. IP run off of CAN bus for OBD-II.
1999 - ZJ becomes the WJ, with significant changes undercar, and some interior and exterior changes. WJ comes with IFS? (I don't recall offhand - can anyone confirm?)
2001 - XJ ends production. Thousands of XJ owners mourn.
2007 - Last model year for AMC242 I6 engine. Thousands of Jeep diehards mourn.

5-90- A buddy has a '01 WJ w/the solid D30 front. Also '91 saw the OBD and single key changes, '90 still have dual keys. GOOD list tho

BTW-In what way was the front clip changed in '87? Never noticed a big difference.

Thanks - I wasn't sure.

The front clip sheetmetal was lengthened slightly (wings from 1984-1986 won't fit in 1987-up,) and the firewall was "notched" in the top centre to clear the rear of the cylinder head. It wasn't much - and you probably wouldn't notice the changes externally, unless you had a tape measure to hand, but large-displacement sixes are fairly long, and you have to make room for them. Since the XJ was originally designed around a four-cylinder and a V6, room had to be made.

5-90

[/QUOTE]1994/1995 - I'd have to check timing on this, but I think this was about when Daimler/Benz bought ChryCo, making the new "Daimler/Chrysler" company. A definite step backwards... After all, it was Daimler/Benz that put IFS under the Unimog, "to improve road manners." Who would buy a 'Mog that cares about road manners?
[/QUOTE]
I agree completly. If i had a Mog it would be offroad most of the time.